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03/28/2003 07:23:25 AM · #1
Hello all,

I just got a new Canon 10D on Friday. I have one lens, a 28-105 USM.

I'm still in the process of testing this camera, to decide if it suits me, or if I will trade it in (likely for a Fuji S2, if I do). I have until Friday to decide.

Any tests people can suggest, I'd be happy to try.

So far, sample shots and notes on the camera, can be seen AT THIS LINK.

Message edited by author 2003-03-28 07:24:28.
03/28/2003 07:44:55 AM · #2
My contribution ... Some shots taken in Washington, DC last WE , all with the Canon 28-135 IS lens.
The butterflies are from the 'Butterfly house' in the Art and Industry museum.
10D shots in DC
03/28/2003 08:50:37 AM · #3
Originally posted by lionelm:

My contribution ... Some shots taken in Washington, DC


100_0026 is a classic shot. ;) nice job.
03/28/2003 09:54:29 AM · #4
Originally posted by langdon:

Originally posted by lionelm:

My contribution ... Some shots taken in Washington, DC


100_0026 is a classic shot. ;) nice job.

Ok. Then it wasn't just me :)
03/28/2003 11:19:34 AM · #5
That would be a great one to have on the bedroom wall. Pop in some Barry White and invite the ladies over. =)

Originally posted by lionelm:

My contribution ... Some shots taken in Washington, DC

100_0026 is a classic shot. ;) nice job.

Ok. Then it wasn't just me :)

03/28/2003 11:45:26 AM · #6
Have you tested it for some possible FRONT focus issues? There is apparently a batch of cameras that had that problem. I should get mine 10D next week as well and that will be the first thing i check....

Test is usually done with the largest focal length and the widest open aperature. Take a few objects, line them up and then focus on the one just slightly behind (CD cases's are good for this test), it should lock focus on the one you select, but instead the CD in front will be infocus and the locked focus will be out of focus.

It's been on discussion in dpreview.com and www.fredmiranda.com for some time. Not ALL cameras, but according to epople who have sent it to Canon to get the autofocus RECALIBRATED, there are quite a few in the forums. Just thought you should know, because your cat photo looks a bit fuzzy :-) (the 10D would outpace any of the point and shoot cameras in terms of focusing and missing it by even 2 inches is not acceptable)

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

Hello all,

I just got a new Canon 10D on Friday. I have one lens, a 28-105 USM.

I'm still in the process of testing this camera, to decide if it suits me, or if I will trade it in (likely for a Fuji S2, if I do). I have until Friday to decide.

Any tests people can suggest, I'd be happy to try.

So far, sample shots and notes on the camera, can be seen AT THIS LINK.
03/28/2003 11:55:03 AM · #7
thanks, paganini. i will try that when i get home.

:)


03/28/2003 11:59:48 AM · #8
Shoot I thought I have been 'original' wihth my washington monument picture .. so this shot with those lamp bulbs have already been done ? grrrrrr

03/28/2003 12:06:03 PM · #9
Originally posted by magnetic9999:

thanks, paganini. i will try that when i get home.
:)


Mag, you might try (if you do not already that) to use single point focus then you are more sure of what is going to be use to calculate the focus.

As for the test it looks like the best would be to use video tapes ( and not batteries as the batteries are too 'round' for a test ). So be carefull before interpretating the reasult as Front focusiing and returning things to Canon.Depending on which camera you had before .. it takes time to get use to the different focusing mechanism and the dof so .. give time to the operator to 'tame' the beast ;-)

Lionel
03/28/2003 12:12:15 PM · #10
Yes only use a single point focus (don't use the auto select focus feature) :) you can also compare the results with a manual focus too.

I think i have only seen the issues discussed when people have a 300 mm lens which is alot easier to see than a 70 mm lens because depth of field on those is very shallow.

Originally posted by lionelm:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

thanks, paganini. i will try that when i get home.
:)


Mag, you might try (if you do not already that) to use single point focus then you are more sure of what is going to be use to calculate the focus.

As for the test it looks like the best would be to use video tapes ( and not batteries as the batteries are too 'round' for a test ). So be carefull before interpretating the reasult as Front focusiing and returning things to Canon.Depending on which camera you had before .. it takes time to get use to the different focusing mechanism and the dof so .. give time to the operator to 'tame' the beast ;-)

Lionel
03/28/2003 12:50:59 PM · #11
definitely .. as with any new piece of equipment, there is a learning curve. i got to go home early so I'm about to try the test right now :)

Originally posted by lionelm:

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

thanks, paganini. i will try that when i get home.
:)


Mag, you might try (if you do not already that) to use single point focus then you are more sure of what is going to be use to calculate the focus.

As for the test it looks like the best would be to use video tapes ( and not batteries as the batteries are too 'round' for a test ). So be carefull before interpretating the reasult as Front focusiing and returning things to Canon.Depending on which camera you had before .. it takes time to get use to the different focusing mechanism and the dof so .. give time to the operator to 'tame' the beast ;-)

Lionel


Message edited by author 2003-03-28 12:51:11.
03/28/2003 03:22:35 PM · #12
no probs with front focus :)

.. thanks for the suggestion.
03/28/2003 03:45:58 PM · #13
Cool -- i assume you're using the biggest telephoto lens and the open aperature? :) cuz i heard some issues were only related to high zoom lenses or high telephoto lenses. i should get my 10D next week, so looking forward to it myself.

[uote=magnetic9999]no probs with front focus :)

.. thanks for the suggestion.[/quote]
03/28/2003 04:44:04 PM · #14
since i'm in a state of evaluation, the only lens I shelled out for was a canon 28-105 USM, $149... that way, if i decided to exchange the camera, i wouldnt have bought too much into the canon system. i used it at 105 mm with the aper set to it's widest, and used CD's. in One Shot mode it performed like a champ, even with the CD's at an extremely low angle in relation to the lens (lots of overlap between CD's). This weekend I'm going to try to do some strobed portraits to see how the 10D handles them. That will be another important piece of the puzzle ..
03/28/2003 06:03:11 PM · #15
I'm almost hoping you end up going for the S2 so you can give us a good hands-on comparison between the two ; ) but good luck with the 10D anyway. I look forward to seeing some entries with whichever one you settle on.
03/29/2003 12:45:18 PM · #16
I am not sure that woudl bea good lens myself I think the 28-135 mm IS lens would be better.

Check out: //www.photodo.com for the lens comparison. Another site is: //www.cmpsolv.com/photozone/resultEOS.htm. It gives you an idea of what people think of these lenses.

i'd rather stick with PRIMES and L lenses myself :) You could've bought a 50 mm F1.8 which is very SHARP for only $60.

I am thinking about the 70-200mm L F4 lens and a 20 mm prime lens as a start :) I find that either I need more telephoto than what i have, or i need wide angle, i rarely use anything around 50 mm.

Now I understand why some of your photos look "soft" :) Need to try a sharp prime lens dude! Get a 50 mm F1.8 (equivalent to near 80 mm, a perfect lens for portraits) and see what you get.

Also the front focus issue won't happen unless you have very high focal length + wide open aperature (i.e. 300 mm lens is what one guy reported)..... really a quality control issue, they didnt' calibrate it to the precision, so at low focal points with greater depth of field, people may not even notice it.


Originally posted by magnetic9999:

since i'm in a state of evaluation, the only lens I shelled out for was a canon 28-105 USM, $149... that way, if i decided to exchange the camera, i wouldnt have bought too much into the canon system. i used it at 105 mm with the aper set to it's widest, and used CD's. in One Shot mode it performed like a champ, even with the CD's at an extremely low angle in relation to the lens (lots of overlap between CD's). This weekend I'm going to try to do some strobed portraits to see how the 10D handles them. That will be another important piece of the puzzle ..

03/30/2003 07:41:51 AM · #17
I have the 28-135 and it's a good lens and very versatile.
135 will give you a little more range and the image stabilizer does work nicely.
Chasseur d'image , a frenc h good photomagazine who does good tests, give both good reviews (max 5 for some top canon lens) :
performance : 3 stars
performanc/price : 4 stars
'love factor' : 4

Personnally I just go the 28-135 and I am very happy with it and the 50 m 1.8.

Lionel
03/30/2003 07:45:25 AM · #18
10D/FOCUS
Hey mag, just in case of ... if you have some focusing issue, look at the thread on fredmiranda or dpreview. it looks like for a lot of people , 'reset' the camera through the menu fixed their focus problem. Maybe they did not 'reboot' the processor at some point on some models.
Have fun with it!
Lionel
03/30/2003 10:45:24 AM · #19
My current camera, an OLYMPUS E-10 , which is a DSLR with a permanently attached lens, features a very high quality lens that is optically very SHARP. It is considered by most to be equivalent in quality to the best lenses of other brands(how much would you pay for a 35-140/f2.0-2.4 with internal extension and ED glass? At least a grand for the L equivalent).

However, even tho it is a very sharp lens, the images, as they come straight out of the camera, especially when viewed at 100%, do not look sharp. They are not really meant to be viewed/used at 100%. However, when resampled, and sharpened (USM) to restore lost accutance, it is capable of yielding images that are very sharp, like THIS ONE :).

The point is that I've never seen a full-size crop or file from a digital camera, especially an SLR, that didn't look soft before processing, no matter what lens was used. All of the fullsize 10D pics I posted were completely unprocessed, with in-camera processing set to a low setting. Also keep in mind that, because the 10D images are so low in noise, they appear to be softer than many other cameras; this is because grain adds to our perception of "sharpness". (See this Luminous Landscape article for more on "Understanding Sharpness" :)).

But even an inexpensive lens, when shot with good technique, followed by resizing and post-processing, can yield sharp images. In fact, see this picture and the rest in that gallery, and then compare the resized ones to the 100% crop of portrait 3 I have in there. You will see what I mean.

All that said, I would love to acquire a stable of top notch lenses :). I tend to think that part of the reason the expensive lenses are so is because they have much larger max apertures than the consumer line, in addition to ED glass and flourite elements. Not to mention very high build quality, and years of high performance in a variety of conditions.

If I do decide to keep this camera, which is looking more and more likely, I will start to commit more resources. But my feeling (and fear) is that, for web resolution purposes, I will not see much quality difference.

Thanks for the discussion :).

Originally posted by paganini:

I am not sure that would bea good lens myself I think the 28-135 mm IS lens would be better..Now I understand why some of your photos look "soft" :) ....

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

since i'm in a state of evaluation, the only lens I shelled out for was a canon 28-105 USM, $149 ..


Message edited by author 2003-03-30 10:56:04.
03/30/2003 12:11:16 PM · #20
Kollin, I hope you keep on telling us more about the 10D because I have been very close to getting one myself. But I have decided to wait till 24th of June to test the new Olympus E-system. Then I´ll see, Olympus or Canon. You see. it´s hard to leave Olympus. I have had them all and do love them, especially my E-20 and C-5050.
03/30/2003 12:20:08 PM · #21
I personnally love the 10D. I am very happy with the s30 but the possibilities are just not the same. Just look in the viewfinder of a SLR camera and it's already somehow a different world. Both worlds are good, people can be happy in both world depending on the budget and other factors .. but a Digital SLR is so great if you can afford it.

As for the 10D .. .I do not see how it could not be the curretnt choice right now if you do not have already any lenses (and except if you want a specific nikon lens). I gues the Fuji s2 pro might be a little better ( +- 9MP ) but for an additional 900$.

It's a a great camera. So far I own the 28-135ID and 50 1.8 lenses.

Lionel
03/30/2003 01:46:16 PM · #22
Uh, that's not true :) check out the thread at Fred Miranda's website. Someone found a fix for the out of focus issue.

(if you have a problem such as front focus, this will help)

The reason why E-10 isn't as sharp is that the lens is probably not that great as well as the sensor isn't that good either. The reason why DSLR's are better is due to the lens + the sensor.

Here's the site:
D10 Issue fixed


Originally posted by magnetic9999:

My current camera, an OLYMPUS E-10 , which is a DSLR with a permanently attached lens, features a very high quality lens that is optically very SHARP. It is considered by most to be equivalent in quality to the best lenses of other brands(how much would you pay for a 35-140/f2.0-2.4 with internal extension and ED glass? At least a grand for the L equivalent).

However, even tho it is a very sharp lens, the images, as they come straight out of the camera, especially when viewed at 100%, do not look sharp. They are not really meant to be viewed/used at 100%. However, when resampled, and sharpened (USM) to restore lost accutance, it is capable of yielding images that are very sharp, like THIS ONE :).

The point is that I've never seen a full-size crop or file from a digital camera, especially an SLR, that didn't look soft before processing, no matter what lens was used. All of the fullsize 10D pics I posted were completely unprocessed, with in-camera processing set to a low setting. Also keep in mind that, because the 10D images are so low in noise, they appear to be softer than many other cameras; this is because grain adds to our perception of "sharpness". (See this Luminous Landscape article for more on "Understanding Sharpness" :)).

But even an inexpensive lens, when shot with good technique, followed by resizing and post-processing, can yield sharp images. In fact, see this picture and the rest in that gallery, and then compare the resized ones to the 100% crop of portrait 3 I have in there. You will see what I mean.

All that said, I would love to acquire a stable of top notch lenses :). I tend to think that part of the reason the expensive lenses are so is because they have much larger max apertures than the consumer line, in addition to ED glass and flourite elements. Not to mention very high build quality, and years of high performance in a variety of conditions.

If I do decide to keep this camera, which is looking more and more likely, I will start to commit more resources. But my feeling (and fear) is that, for web resolution purposes, I will not see much quality difference.

Thanks for the discussion :).

Originally posted by paganini:

I am not sure that would bea good lens myself I think the 28-135 mm IS lens would be better..Now I understand why some of your photos look "soft" :) ....

Originally posted by magnetic9999:

since i'm in a state of evaluation, the only lens I shelled out for was a canon 28-105 USM, $149 ..

03/30/2003 01:51:57 PM · #23
Btw...

THere is a huge difference between a cheap 28-200 zoom from Canon versus a quality zoom such as the 70-200 mm L lens. A HUGE difference, you can see it for web purposes, easily.

But anyway, there are two issues: Apparently Canon shipped a batch of 10D's that have the front focus/back focus issue that can be corrected by simply resetting the custom functions + the camera settings (i.e. it simply clear the flash memory and reload the settings from ROM as the settings were probably corrupted) and that solves most of the front focus issue.

And there is the glass issue. You will see a difference between L and non-L glasses, except maybe when you compare zoom L lens versus prime lens at the same focal length, in that case the prime will do better. WE're talking about zoom here.

Anyway, do what you want but if you see your images coming out soft no matter what you do, might want to have it looked at. There has been a lot of shots of 10D that are just perfectly sharp right out of the camera WITHOUT adjustments and there are a few that are simply out of fcous when they focus on an object it instead focus just slightly before it or after. The cameras are designed so that if you use JPEGS and not RAW, the image SHOULD BE SHARP when you load it out of the camera and print it.


03/30/2003 01:53:31 PM · #24
I think we're talking about 2 different things :) ..

A) I'm not worried about the front focus issue. The test I did satisfied that my camera works correctly for my needs with regard to focus. I wasn't even talking about that anymore :) .. although I do appreciate your help on that. THanks.

B) You misunderstood: I said the E-10 is sharp as hell with a very high quality, fast lens, and to match it with the 10D would cost big bucks in the lens department. Then I showed you a picture demonstrating that sharpness ;).

C) Not only that but E-10 and E-20 are D-SLR's. The only difference is that in their case, the lens, which is very quality, and adequate for 90% of studio photography contingencies, is permanently attached, thereby relieving Olympus of the need to develop a lens mount. However, this doesn't change that they are SLR's and that they have the controllabilty, quality and flexibility of other DSLR's.

D) The 10D takes sharp pics with the lens I have, but they look sharper after post-processing, just like any camera with a strong anti-aliasing filter, low noise, and in-camera processing turned down.

Sidenote: photodo.com rates the 28-105 as basically equivalent to the 28-135 IS (3.3 vs. 3.5). So, again, that's not really a big issue :).

Message edited by author 2003-03-30 14:01:04.
03/30/2003 02:02:03 PM · #25
yes, but look at the ratings for 70-200 mm L or 24-70mm L :)

ALso the IS is better than the other one, by 0.2 in the rating which is a lot considering that L lenses rates about 4.0 versus 3.5 on the IS. And the difference is staggering. With the 1.6x factor, the lens performance really shows up on digital more than on film. You can search at Fred Miranda's website for the list of articles that compare the different lenses.

Here's a survery i got from someone on the site on the Canon lenses:
[/quote]EOS Lens survey


Originally posted by magnetic9999:

I think we're talking about 2 different things :) ..

A) I'm not worried about the front focus issue. The test I did satisfied that my camera works correctly for my needs with regard to focus. I wasn't even talking about that anymore :)

B) You misunderstood: I said the E-10 is sharp as hell with a very high quality, fast lens, and to match it with the 10D would cost big bucks in the lens department.

C) Not only that but E-10 and E-20 are D-SLR's. The only difference is that in their case, the lens, which is very quality, and adequate for 90% of studio photography contingencies, is permanently attached, thereby relieving Olympus of the need to develop a lens mount. However, this doesn't change that they are SLR's and that they have the controllabilty, quality and flexibility of other DSLR's.

D) The 10D takes sharp pics with the lens I have, but they look sharper after post-processing, just like any camera with a strong anti-aliasing filter, low noise, and in-camera processing turned down.

Sidenote: photodo.com rates the 28-105 as basically equivalent to the 28-135 IS (3.3 vs. 3.5). So, again, that's not really a big issue :).
EOS Lens survey
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