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02/22/2005 10:46:34 PM · #1 |
I tried voting for the 'Bridges II' challenge, but have only reach the halfway mark. 300+ entries are just too many to vote fairly. Many of us do have full-time jobs. I have noticed that most such challenges have #votes/entry < #entries
I have a couple of suggestions:
1. Allow users to unsubmit during the challenge. Yes, there are arguments both in favor of and against it.. but if a photographer finds out in the first couple of hours that he didnt get his point accross/or made a dumb mistake - allow him to save the agony of watching multiple people say the same thing, and save voters the trouble of voting too many images.
2. Simpler scale for fairer voting.
If we have voter A who votes 50% images and averages a 'vote given' of 6, and another voter B who votes other 50% and averages a 'vote given' of 4 - it isnt really fair to them, right?
I agree with all other posts asking for standardised voting. Instead of a number scale - have a word+number scale:
Very poor (1) - Poor (2) - Fair (3) - Good (4) - Very Good (5).
I honestly do not believe we need more granularity. A simpler scale also gives voters a chance to vote quicker.
3. tiered voting
Not sure how this would pan out - but just a thought.
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02/22/2005 10:51:02 PM · #2 |
I like the idea of unsubmitting, but the rest is just fine the way it is.
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02/22/2005 10:59:18 PM · #3 |
If you don't want to vote on 600 enteries, why not just vote on the 20% (well 22% so that it covers any dqs)? It will make it very fair as everyone will get random photos anyway.
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02/22/2005 11:06:51 PM · #4 |
it seems that this topic inevatibly comes up when there is a contest with a serious number of entries.
I too have a full time job and cannot spend 5-6 hours voting. but I do try to vote on all of the pictures. then I go back and review those I rated above 5 and do a more careful vote. this really cuts down on the number of images.
I can already hear the complaints that it gives less feed back to those who need it the most. while this is true, I feel that I can improve by looking at the elements and techinques used by those who scored in the top 20. Study those pictures and you will get a wide variety of very good tutorials.
It is my personal belive that the top entries need more careful attention so that the scores there refelect the photo beter.
I do not think that I am alone as the number of both votes and views are always greater for those pictures that hit the top 20.
just my 2 cents
Dean |
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02/22/2005 11:08:22 PM · #5 |
I have to say I do not favor the idea of 'unsubmitting'. If you allowed that then a user could enter a challenge and after receiving a few votes get an idea of what there score will be and unsubmit the photograph to save there average. And at the same time be in another challenge and see that they have a good score and leave it to increase there average. I would call it selective submission instead of 'unsubmittion' and it would not be fair. And at the same time keep them from learning by mistake. There are also other complications. Such as the people that has took time voting and commenting on the photo just to find it was 'unsubmitted' by the photographer and have now waisted there time and it will not get them through the voting process any faster.
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 23:14:34. |
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02/22/2005 11:10:45 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by loz1:
If you don't want to vote on 600 enteries, why not just vote on the 20% (well 22% so that it covers any dqs)? It will make it very fair as everyone will get random photos anyway. |
Perhaps not... in the example given ... voter A votes on 50% of the images and averages a 'vote given' of 6, and voter B votes on 50% and averages a 'vote given' of 4 -
As stated, for the recipient of the 4 scores, this would hardly seem fair.
I can't speak for anyone else, nor am I passing judgement, but I can assure you that I spend a great deal more time preparing and shooting a photo than I do scoring.
Since my becoming a member on DPC, I have to date reviewed every single submission on every single challenge (on repeated occasions) and voted on them accordingly. It is my belief that if members can expend such time and energy to grace us with masterpieces, it is only fitting that I spare the time to truly enjoy them, categorize them and provide any comments I deem warranted.
Ray
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02/22/2005 11:12:39 PM · #7 |
As much as I think that would help to get through voting...it wouldn't be fair to allow people to unsubmit their entries after seeing that it might do poorly.
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02/22/2005 11:12:57 PM · #8 |
I guess thats a good point about unsubmitting. It could also mean that people who have a good average, unsubmit photos that will decrease their average. If you take a photo and press the enter button, then you should committ to it.
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02/22/2005 11:16:53 PM · #9 |
I agree with commiting to the photo. Your average should refelect your photos, not just your best photos.
Dean |
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02/22/2005 11:20:01 PM · #10 |
| There's no way a scale of 1 - 5 is gonna take less time than 1 - 10. |
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02/22/2005 11:26:27 PM · #11 |
I would like to at least be able to unsubmit a shot after the challenge was over...
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02/22/2005 11:31:52 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by loz1:
I guess thats a good point about unsubmitting. It could also mean that people who have a good average, unsubmit photos that will decrease their average. If you take a photo and press the enter button, then you should committ to it. |
Yup, agree completely, and with what Deapee said.
You would also need to reset EVERYONE's previous average, or allow them to remove old entries. Otherwise it would be impossible to compare between users, as anyone who only entered recent challenges would be at a huge advantage.
Boy would I like to ditch my earliest challenge entries from my scores!
I also think it would greatly lower the overall quality of the challenges .... I have a photo but think it will score badly as it is crap, so I don't enter it. If I could enter and withdraw then, what the hell, may as well shove it in and then remove it later. In the meantime loads of people have wasted their time voting on it for no good reason, along with others like it, and the good photos get lost in the added number of crap entries.
This thread was about reducing the number of entries ... but that I think would greatly increase the number of entries .... and not with good quality ones.
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 23:33:27.
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02/22/2005 11:48:52 PM · #13 |
Here is the solution, get DSL. I personaly had voted on every single entry for the Separation Challenge in little less than 20 minutes and that was still time to look closely at images. However, this time frame didn't count for making comments, but the votes were counted equally. Although, in such challenges that the photo count is in the upper 400+ region, I would suspect that it would nearly take about 1 hour to vote on every single image if one should have DLS/Cable Modems. Then later return to comment on photos that you so inclined to do so. Overall, with higher speed internet access, the pain of loading an image with a 56K dial-up would be deteirated. Thus, faster loading and less time consumeing than want people are experiencing. One more thing, another reason to look at. If not all photos are voted upon, it's not that maybe they don't have DLS or what-not. People in general have life's to lead and not always can take the time to vote all the through each image. However, I'm sure as I also feel bad when that I can't always vote on every single image provided. But it helps when you have DSL. :)
Message edited by author 2005-02-22 23:50:51. |
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02/23/2005 12:31:56 AM · #14 |
What is the big deal about averages anyway? I'd say stop displaying overall score average, or just display recent average - last 5 submissions or so.
Averages is perhaps the only reason I've heard against 'unsubmit'.
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02/23/2005 12:36:13 AM · #15 |
I think people like averages, as its a way they can messure growth.
Why should be unsubmitt? People should submitt because they are proud of their images and they want to learn something. If you are not sure of an image don't enter it to begin with.
I actually don't see any reason why unsubmitting should be considered. It would just waste peoples time. I don't want to offer someone advice and take the time to rate them, and then they just press delete because they either don't like my score or comment. Its about learning and learning involves both good and bad feedback.
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02/23/2005 12:48:09 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by loz1:
Why should be unsubmitt? People should submitt because they are proud of their images and they want to learn something. If you are not sure of an image don't enter it to begin with. |
You dont need to be told 40 times that nobody got your joke.. If you could unsubmit, it would reduce the number of images to vote. It would allow you to spend more time per photo while voting.
If average abuse is the concern, why not keep the 'unsubmitted' photo in the profile, and count whatever votes it got - but just stop displaying it during voting.
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02/23/2005 02:10:10 AM · #17 |
Personally, I like the unsubmit idea. But there should be a window, for example, no sooner than 50 votes and no later than the half-way mark through the challenge.
What's the big deal if we allow people to unsubmit? Who cares if people do it to try to inflate their average? There's no real comparison here anyway (which is good).
Better yet, we should be able to unsubmit other peoples photos during the challenge ;) |
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02/23/2005 02:13:51 AM · #18 |
You can already do this once. But removing a photo becomes a waste of time for anyone who already put forth the effort to vote/comment on it, and would probably make a big mess of the database.
From the rules:
A user may request removal of their own photo, for any reason, but only if they have not been disqualified for any reason in their last 25 submissions. Eligibility is determined only by the user’s most recent 25 submissions, and does not "accumulate." Please note that subsequent DQs within the next 25 submissions may incur a penalty as set forth below. |
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