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02/08/2005 12:33:42 AM · #1
I'm finally going to take the leap and get some real hardware! My budget is around $1,400.00 (US). I'm torn between a lot of options. I have thought about buying a Nikon D70 and then adding a zoom lense and memory card. Another option is the Canon EOS-300D Rebel and I can buy even more extras. My third option is to by the Canon EOS 20D W/ Canon EF-S 18-55mm Lens, but then thats the whole budget. I'm looking for your advise. Thanks in advance for your help.
02/08/2005 12:39:38 AM · #2
Also keep in mind the Pentax *ist Ds, perhaps a used Canon 10D (which would allow for extra accessories too, and could be as little as a new 300D), or the Minolta Maxxum 7D.. which is getting pretty good reviews. All depends on your need for expansion. Pentax allows *most* of their line of lenses, the 10D is still a great camera, and the D70 is sworn by by a lot of people.

Hmm.. I guess this isn't much help :)
02/08/2005 12:41:10 AM · #3
I would like to upgrade to a DSLR but I am not a good enough photographer as of yet to justify it. But I have been looking around and shopping. I guess a wish list. If I do buy a DSLR in the future I believe my budget would be around the same as yours. I have done a side-by-side comparison with the EOS 300D and D70. I like the D70 and at wolfcamera they have a good price on them and right now there is up to $100 in rebates. See this link

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 00:42:25.
02/08/2005 12:43:31 AM · #4
Thanks for the advice and the links!
02/08/2005 12:55:10 AM · #5
I recently went thru the same decision process you're going thru. To a large degree, all of the "entry level" DSLRs are comparable. Each has its own pluses and minuses. What helped me make my own decision was to go thru the list of challenges on this site to see which cameras were consistently ranking highly, as well as checking the gallery of images for each camera I was considering. Another site that was a huge help was DPReview. Thorough reviews of nearly every camera out there, plus unretouched images from many of them.

Good luck with your research. I expect you'll be happy with whatever you pick.
02/08/2005 12:56:55 AM · #6
Be safe. Get one of each.

If you want quality over quantity go for the 20D. It is within your budget and you can always buy extra lenses later. The six Mp DSLR is so yesterday and will quickly go the way of the dodo. The quality of the images coming from the 20D are noticably better then those coming from the 300D or the D70.

My philos is to always get the best that you can afford.

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 00:57:57.
02/08/2005 01:12:00 AM · #7
Originally posted by nsbca7:

Be safe. Get one of each.

If you want quality over quantity go for the 20D. It is within your budget and you can always buy extra lenses later. The six Mp DSLR is so yesterday and will quickly go the way of the dodo. The quality of the images coming from the 20D are noticably better then those coming from the 300D or the D70.

My philos is to always get the best that you can afford.


Bob,

I am in a similar situation, looking for a new dSLR. I would have to agree, go for the best you can buy. I am trying to hold out for another six months or so, hoping Nikon comes out with a 8mp dSLR. If not, I am definitely leaning towards the Canon 20D.

Good luck in your search.
02/08/2005 01:24:56 AM · #8
As I recall, the Rebel is due for an upgrade any month now. Might be worth waiting for, as I think it might be March.

I went for the Rebel rather than the 20D, which was just coming out, so I could spend more on lenses and accessories, and you might consider that.

Note also, even if you wanted an existing Rebel rather than waiting, the price will drop big time when the new one comes out.
02/08/2005 01:43:22 AM · #9
Originally posted by bobdaveant:

I'm finally going to take the leap and get some real hardware! My budget is around $1,400.00 (US). I'm torn between a lot of options. I have thought about buying a Nikon D70 and then adding a zoom lense and memory card. Another option is the Canon EOS-300D Rebel and I can buy even more extras. My third option is to by the Canon EOS 20D W/ Canon EF-S 18-55mm Lens, but then thats the whole budget. I'm looking for your advise. Thanks in advance for your help.


Bob,

The best camera is the one that meets your individual needs. What are you looking to do with your new camera that you can't do with the one you have? What types of photographs do you most like to take? What are your goals, photography-wise for the next year? Three years? Five years?

-Terry
02/08/2005 01:53:55 AM · #10
I intended to get a 300D until I went into a shop and had a play, the 300D in my opinion just felt too plastic and the kit lens (18-55) felt like something of a child's toy. The D70 was a world apart once in my hands, and the kit lens (18-70) is worthwhile. I don't subscribe to the Nikon vs Canon wars (except for a little fun from time to time) and being honest, if my budget was larger I would have probally gone for the 20D but in light of the fact that the 18-55 would have to be replaced my budget was too small.

I also bought a SB600 flash and both a 50mm 1.8 and a 70-210mm 4-5.6 from ebay and use these lenses in preference, (I'm currently in love with the 70-210).

So, my advice, go and play with the cameras in a shop and see what suits you the best, if your budget can be extended then have a serious look at the 20D otherwise the D70, but what matters the most is what suits you the best.
02/08/2005 01:55:21 AM · #11
I agree with nsbca7: get the best you can afford.

Here's something else you should consider: the long term direction of the two major manufacturers you're considering, Canon vs. Nikon. I had to think about this question sometime ago, and I ended up jumping ship from one manufacturer to the other. Now, this question is important because once you buy your DSLR you'll also be buying into a particular lens system; which, depending on your needs, may end up costing you more than the camera itself -- you'll see.

Here's the question, as I see it: What's the major trend of "X" manufacturer, and how often does it deliver major developments to market? Asking yourself this question will inform you about which lens line up you want to invest in.

It's apparent that Canon and Nikon have -- at the moment -- chosen divergent paths...

Canon: 1.6 pro-sumer crop/1.3-1 pro crop. I think that eventually Canon will deliver a 1:1 pro-sumer crop, as the cost of their CMOS development drops. Also, Canon seems to deliver major technological developments to market more frequently and more rapidly than Nikon. On a side note, as a prior SLR Nikon (film & digital) owner, Canon under delivers Nikon when it comes to ergonomic design and attention to small product details. Just one small example, my old Nikon SB-800 included an omnibounce, which snapped onto the flash unit nicely and securely; and, too, the hot-shoe mount locking mechanism consisted of a single lever that locked the flash down with a single twist. On the other hand, my current EX-580 Canon flash did not include an omnibounce and, therefore, does not slip on to the unit very securely; moreover, the hot-shoe mechanism is a cheap plastic wheel that must be turned several times before it locks down the flash onto the camera.

Nikon: It seems that they've opted to develop their cameras and line of new lenses around a 1.5 crop -- this is true even of Nikon's high-end pro-camera, the 12 megapixel D2X. Because of their decision to consistently focus on the 1.5 crop, Nikon appears to be more aggressive in providing wide-angle lenses: even offering a 10.5 mm Fisheye lens for Nikon's digital cameras. As mentioned above, it's my experience that Nikon products have better ergonomic design and more satisfying attention to quality in their products; however, Canon delivers major product improvements to market more frequently and rapidly than Nikon: including CMOS sensors with wider ISO ratings and less noise.

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 01:57:53.
02/08/2005 02:27:19 AM · #12
Originally posted by bdobe:

Nikon: It seems that they've opted to develop their cameras and line of new lenses around a 1.5 crop -- this is true even of Nikon's high-end pro-camera, the 12 megapixel D2X. Because of their decision to consistently focus on the 1.5 crop, Nikon appears to be more aggressive in providing wide-angle lenses: even offering a 10.5 mm Fisheye lens for Nikon's digital cameras.


If we are talking top of the line flagship cameras from either Nikon or Canon then you have to compare the D2X to either the 1Ds or the 1Ds Mark II both of which have 1:1 crop ratio. I can't see how you can do much better than that for wide-angle capability.

I understand your point about consistancy, but if Nikon's best is consistantly worse then Canon's, as it has been in the digital world for more then 3 years, I will have to opt for the Canon.
02/08/2005 02:31:39 AM · #13
The Nikon v Cannon debate will go on forever, and the technology will always be better tomorrow.

If you do decide to go with the D70, the rebate has been bumped to $200. BuyDig.com (good ratings) is selling it for $1103 (and free shipping) so after rebate you are down to $900. Mine should be here Thurs. :-)
02/08/2005 02:50:30 AM · #14
Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by bdobe:

Nikon: It seems that they've opted to develop their cameras and line of new lenses around a 1.5 crop -- this is true even of Nikon's high-end pro-camera, the 12 megapixel D2X. Because of their decision to consistently focus on the 1.5 crop, Nikon appears to be more aggressive in providing wide-angle lenses: even offering a 10.5 mm Fisheye lens for Nikon's digital cameras.


If we are talking top of the line flagship cameras from either Nikon or Canon then you have to compare the D2X to either the 1Ds or the 1Ds Mark II both of which have 1:1 crop ratio. I can't see how you can do much better than that for wide-angle capability.

I understand your point about consistancy, but if Nikon's best is consistantly worse then Canon's, as it has been in the digital world for more then 3 years, I will have to opt for the Canon.


At the end of the day, and after much consideration, I shared in your conclusion; that's why, as I mentioned above, I "jumped ship" and I now own a 1D MKII.

Moreover, in my original post I was careful not to say X is better than Y; instead, I tried to present pros and cons for each in very broad terms. Lastly, while at the 1:1 crop Canon utilizes the full coverage of its wide angle lenses, most people cannot afford the 1:1 Canon systems. All that said, I also mentioned in my original post that -- and I belive that this will happen in the next 3-5 years -- Canon will introduce a 1:1 pro-sumer camera.

Again, my original post was not meant to suggest that X is better than Y; but, rather, to offer one more item for consideration for those looking to buy their first DSLR.

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 02:53:30.
02/08/2005 03:07:31 AM · #15
I disagree. I think they're going in two streams - the 1.6x and the full-frame. I don't think they'd be making the R&D investment to produce two serious EF-S lenses like the 17-85 and the 10-22 if they weren't planning to stick with that system for a while. It doesn't really make sense for them to have two 1-series cameras, and I think once they manage to get 9fps on a full-frame CMOS the 1D/1Ds combo will go the way of the dinosaur and we'll be left with merely a 1D ubercamera.

That's the camera I'm waiting for, and likely the next body I'll buy. I think most amateurs will go for the 300D or the 20D and their replacements, and the pros and serious amateurs will be left with the simplified option of the 1D.

Originally posted by bdobe:

All that said, I also mentioned in my original post that -- and I belive that this will happen in the next 3-5 years -- Canon will introduce a 1:1 pro-sumer camera.


Message edited by author 2005-02-08 03:14:28.
02/08/2005 03:16:48 AM · #16
Originally posted by colda:

So, my advice, go and play with the cameras in a shop and see what suits you the best,

Best advice there is; first time around we had come down to a choice between the 300D and the D70. Technically there wasn't enough in it to make the decision, but as soon as we held both in our hands it was easy. Personally I found the 300D too small and the D70 just felt more natural.

That said, part of the reason we've just jumped ships to the 20D is down to the lenses - if you are thinking (long-term) of spending significant money on lenses then that really has to guide your decision. We came to the conclusion that Canon was the way to go for that, despite the fact that I think the D70 is much more user-friendly.
02/08/2005 03:19:40 AM · #17
There seems to always be a pretty heated debate beetween the Canon and Nikon users. I am pretty indifferent and I think you will be quite happy with either a Nikon or Canon system.

Definetly take a look at the 20D vs D70 comparison by Ken Rockwell:
//www.kenrockwell.com/tech/20dd70.htm

I read it well after purchasing my Canon DSLR but I thought it was pretty informative and truthful.

It basically comes down to what you like shooting most. For me it was night/low light and sports, so Canon was the obvious choice.
02/08/2005 03:37:04 AM · #18
There's no disagreement, though, I should've been more explicit, and have originally written: I belive that Canon will introduce a 1:1 crop camera at pro-sumer prices -- $2,000 - $4,000 -- in the next 3-5 years. (This is what I consider to be an affordable price range.)

I agree, with an already significant investment in the 1.6/EF system, it's unlikely that it'll be abandoned anytime soon; however, the EF-S system will remain aimed at the amature/pro-sumer market.

As for the camera you're describing, it sounds fantastic... I better start putting some pennies (a lot of pennies) away. Meanwhile, I'd love to get my hand on the Mamiya ZD digital camera -- of course, it's not as fast as most DSLR, but the image quality for print work is incredible.

---------------------------------------

Originally posted by jimmythefish:

I disagree. I think they're going in two streams - the 1.6x and the full-frame. I don't think they'd be making the R&D investment to produce two serious EF-S lenses like the 17-85 and the 10-22 if they weren't planning to stick with that system for a while. It doesn't really make sense for them to have two 1-series cameras, and I think once they manage to get 9fps on a full-frame CMOS the 1D/1Ds combo will go the way of the dinosaur and we'll be left with merely a 1D ubercamera.

That's the camera I'm waiting for, and likely the next body I'll buy. I think most amateurs will go for the 300D or the 20D and their replacements, and the pros and serious amateurs will be left with the simplified option of the 1D.

02/08/2005 03:55:33 AM · #19
Indeed. The price of the bodies will eventually (I think) approach something resembling the old film bodies' affordability, though perhaps slightly more due to the increased complexity of digital backs. That Mamiya looks great, and while I'd like something like that, the flexibility and resilience of the 1-series cameras is hard to turn down. I don't think I'd need much more than a 16mp full-frame body. WIth my 17-40, and trading my 70-200 F4L for the 2.8 IS version, I'd be set for life. Well...until I really needed that 400 2.8. Oh, and the 35 F1.4L...and the 135 F2L...and and and...

That's why I'm going to grad school. When I get out, one of everything! Not...

Originally posted by bdobe:

There's no disagreement, though, I should've been more explicit, and have originally written: I belive that Canon will introduce a 1:1 crop camera at pro-sumer prices -- $2,000 - $4,000 -- in the next 3-5 years. (This is what I consider to be an affordable price range.)

02/08/2005 05:17:23 AM · #20
Hi there

You can't go wrong with the Nikon D70. I've owned the unit for about 6 months now and it takes absolutely great pictures

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 05:23:07.
02/08/2005 06:36:57 AM · #21
Am I the only one here who thinks it's important to wait for some feedback from the OP on his intentions before making a recommendation?

I mean, I'm just as capable of getting all "rah rah go team Canon" as anyone else, but if Bob's needs suggest a Nikon, Olympus, Pentax or Konika Minolta, wouldn't it be nice to know that?

-Terry

Message edited by author 2005-02-08 06:38:32.
02/08/2005 07:10:43 AM · #22
You need to look at a couple of things.

1) What kinds of shooting will you be doing?

2) Will you be able/willing to spend premium dollar on high end glass?
(I mean are you gonna drop $1000 on a single lens)

3) How ironclad is the budget you have? Realistically you need to consider the memory card, lens cleaning supplies, camera bag, and filter for lens as must have items. Do not forget to add those in. You are gonna have to get them sooner or later.

4) Do you have any physical limitations? Example- people with small hands often find the D70 more comfortable. People with muscle weakness (Parkensons, MS) find the light body of the Digital Rebel easier to work with. How the camera feels in your hand is almost as critical as the features.

Start with these questions. Realistically techwise these cameras are all good. The Rebel has a great price, the D70 is solid all around, an the 20D has great ISO speeds.

Answer a couple of the above questions and we might be able to help you out a bit better. :)

Clara
02/09/2005 07:02:08 PM · #23
Bob,

Are you still thinking about a DSLR? If so, could you give us some feedback on Clara's (and my) questions above so we can help you better?

-Terry
02/09/2005 07:17:40 PM · #24
I don't use the D20. I WANT to use the D20. Money is an issue.

Here are some helpful web links. If you are going to base your decision just on these forum fires, you'll end up with a $1,400 point and shoot.

www.dpreview.com (research the D20, the Rebel, and the Nikon D70)

//robgalbraith.com/bins/index.asp (info on media cards)

//pcphotomag.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=3748716/search=EOS%2020D (that link is the D20, plug in another camera for other prices)

Finally,

The Nikon D70 is a marvelous camera. So is the Digital Rebel. So is the D20. Each takes amazing photos. Look at lens systems, features each camera offers, and possible future discounts.

It's pricey to "jump ship". Plan ahead and RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH.

Cheers,

JOzimek
02/09/2005 07:23:46 PM · #25
Buy the D20 and worry about the money for new lenses later. All round it's a better camera than the Drebel, not that I can complain much about it. It's not about the extra 2 megapixels either, it's the more durable body, the lower noise, and the firmware/functionality. You'll thank me in 6 months. Myself, I won't be upgrading to the D20. By the time I'm able to afford to upgrade, 16 MP will be average. :)
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