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08/21/2002 03:02:38 AM · #1 |
Are we using a scale of 2-10, 2-9,or or 2-7? How should I vote for you?
From my view, the 1's were deleted on Monday morning. They were objectionable or cheats.And the 10's, while possible, were probably sold befor they got posted. That makes a 5.5 for an average score.Is aything below a 5.5 a bad picture, below average? Please don't get me wrong. My submission, on my own scale, deserves no more than a 6.5. It is not a winner. But it isn't bad. It is not below average.How are you ranking pictures? Are you liberal with your 3's? Are you saving the highest scores for your friends? Is the competition more important than the challange? There is plenty of room for subjective values and personal tastes.But is low balling the competition a standard competitive practice?
I am asking these questions so that I will know on what basis you wish your works to be judged.I'm not going to vote until the last minute.But I am going to vote on every photograph.Do you want to be trashed so I can improve my ranking? Or would you prefer my honest opinion? Robbie |
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08/21/2002 03:32:59 AM · #2 |
Honest opinions are what are wanted by 99% of the members. I know how it feels to be getting a low score....Heck, if we thought we were taking bad pictures we wouldn't be posting them here. I hold a next to the last place honor for my entry in the Texture Challenge, I thought it was better than that but, I did learn a lot about photography that week. (and in weeks since)
There are quite a few threads posted recently that spell out several members voting criteria from 1 - 10. Your questions posted here might be best answered by review of previous posts.
Here are the things I look at when viewing the photos on dpchallenge;
Technical quality;
Focus
ROT
DOF
Composition
Lighting
Creativity
Personal Appeal
Title - (I don't particularly like seeing the current challenge category used as part of the photo title...I'd rather see a little more creativity in choosing a title.)
Fit the Challenge
WOW Factor - If it makes me say wow AND meets the criteria above it's a 10. Knock off a point for each criteria not met and pretty soon you are left with a 1.
You sound pretty frustrated. If you hang around here long enough you will find a large family all interested in honing their photography skills and helping their fellow photography addicts do the same. We're not a bad bunch of people and I don't believe we play favorites.
Good luck in your endeavors...
Your friend in photography
Shar
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08/21/2002 03:33:39 AM · #3 |
Well....this is an "interesting" post. First of all...while not being an expert on the way things work in here, I believe that the "1" votes that are deleted are done only when that particular voter has mostly 1's as their scores. It's done so that when voters come in here and vote everything down, it doesn't affect the votes. Therefore, if you "trash" everything...your vote isn't going to count anyway. (somebody correct me if I'm wrong).
Secondly...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 10's being "sold"? Any 10's that I give out are for a shot that just "moves" me....or hits me as being spectacular as soon as I open it. I've had many 10's on the photos I've voted for and none of them were "bought". I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Forgive me if I misunderstand.
Lastly...the average scores in here for a winning photo fall between the 7 to 8 range....so a 5.5 is really not that bad at all to most viewers in here....(at least not to me). But I don't really understand what you're asking. Yes there are all sorts of personal tastes in here and no, not everyone is going to agree with you that your photo is good. I don't believe the competition is foremost on most people's minds in here. I believe this is a learning site...a site where you can grow as a photographer if you choose to. All the information is here. I've also found that when you ask a question or have a photo that you'd like to critiqued outside of the challenge...you can post it here and get a lot of help and wonderful feedback.
In closing, I'd like to say that I rarely give out less than a 4...most of my votes fall between the 5 and 10 range. I would..as most people I believe would agree.....want your honest opinion on my photos.When you say "trash"...I tend to think that means saying something mean or insulting. I don't believe that's a good critique. If you don't like a photo...be prepared to tell why, or say nothing....but don't just trash it by insulting it. I don't think that helps any budding photographer....or experienced one.
Anyway...hope this answered something...not sure if it did...but I have a feeling a lot of folks will have their opinions to share with you in this thread...lol.
good luck:)
Karen |
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08/21/2002 04:46:36 AM · #4 |
Heck, I'm just trying to find out what is going on.How do you judge? Wanting to be warm and fuzzy, I did not use a sharpen filter, or apply an intense light.You don't like my lack of focus or bad lighting, that is your taste. I accept that. And thank you for your comments.
Shar, I'm not at all frustrated. Just curious. I been reading the posts and watching the voting and trying to figure it out.Just like any responsible member of a community would. It is not just the pictures that tell. The words tell as well.
I wouldn't give a 4 to anything that wasn't just, well, not very good. Less than a 3.5 and I'd leave a comment explaining why the photographer should take up accounting as a hobby and leave cameras alone.On a 2 I might use vulger language. The 1's were dropped by the web site before I got to see them. I'd give a 10 to something that move me to a new spiritual plain.
Considering my self an average student, it is just my question as to where the average point is. Rob |
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08/21/2002 04:50:18 AM · #5 |
| Just reviewed a previous message. No, I would never say nasty things about a photo unless I ment them. By "trash" I mean to give a low ball score. giving a 3 to an obvious 6 is the same as an insult but without having to admit that you did it. |
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08/21/2002 04:55:39 AM · #6 |
You only have to vote on 20% of the pictures! This works for me, but I'd like to vote – and do try – on every one. Because my time is limited, and I like to see the top pictures do well, I go through pictures I like first and rank downwards. I seldom score below 4. Not because I'm being kind, or I run out of time, but because there a very few pictures that rank that low. We have also had new members accusing us all of being professionals - what a wonderful compliment. I score a fair few 10's and the reason is simple – they are really good pictures… I also have the same constraint when commenting, I'd comment on all if I could… As for myself, I haven't done well, I have yet to get a picture in the top 100, I have had a picture called stupid, with no other comment, but, I've had lots of good advice. I thought all my pictures were tops when I put them into the challenge, but, after seeing the competition, I realise the end score I get is justified. But, I have not yet had a picture finish lower than the previous one – so, I must be improving.
All this means that I should have a winner around September 2007 :-) Who cares if they don't win - actually I'd love a winner – more importantly, I'm learning and it's great fun…
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08/21/2002 05:26:04 AM · #7 |
Am not worried about my scores. Learning is the point of being here. So I ask the questions.Winning is not important. I win every time I pick up a camera. But I just want to know how you want to be judged.Is your best a 10 or a 7? Amoung your "peers" are you an equal, or are you just the next good buddy to be pushed off the teeter-totter?
I got a truely excellent tip on compression and size reduction from this web site just tonight. It works just great! I'm not complaining. Just questioning values. |
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08/21/2002 06:23:22 AM · #8 |
Robbie, What you are failing to consider is that the scores you see are averages from a very diverse population. No one person's vote really counts. go to the current results page and look at the bell curve on the voting results. That done just forget it and give your honest opinion of each picture as if it was the only one you are looking at. Join the flow.
Good luck.
aelith |
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08/21/2002 07:28:26 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by rapsiii3:. Just questioning values.
Hey rapsiii3 -- you might find it helpful to read a general overview of statistics, and the definition of a bell curve. The way I vote.....by definition most of the photos in the contest will sit in the middle of the bell curve (5). Most of my votes are in the 5 to 7 range. A few each week will sneak below 5, and the photos that move up to 7, 8, 9, 10 are given these scores because I feel they are exceptional. By the end of the week I will be happy with my voting if the final scores form a nice bell curve. Has nothing to do with voting friends higher (don't know who's photo is who's anyway), or trashing photos, etc. |
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08/21/2002 09:11:50 AM · #10 |
Well, my technique is a 3 stage process.
1) I walk to a white chalk line
2) I pick up a dart
3) I fling that thing (all with a blindfold mind you) :-)
OOoOOoopss...sorry dear!!! ;-D |
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08/21/2002 09:41:46 AM · #11 |
If you are scoring low in this challenge, first off, don't worry. I think this is a low scoring challenge. You can see the range. a 5.4 would have gotten you around 40th place in the something new challenge and a 5.4 would have gotten you somewhere in the 80's. When I came here I mostly wanted comments and was honored to hold 41st place out of more than 150 people. I got some really helpful comments. I kind of judge like this. If I would buy it and hang it in large form in my livingroom. It's a 10. smaller form in my livingroom (maybe an 8X10) it gets a 9. In the den, an 8. I mean, not like that exactly, but it has great factor. Visual appeal, lighting, angle and presentation are important in my voting. focus is important, but people here have a large range of what is acceptable focus, so I try to take that into consideration. I give it a 1 if I wouldn't even put it in the out house. Not often, but it happens. On my first round through I found that I give mostly 5's, and then when I go through to comment, most of my votes go up because I'm looking more closely at the photo. Anyway, everyone has their different style. Be honest, and even on your 2's please dont use vulgar language. Be honest, but do it in a polite way. Thanks a lot.
~Heather~ |
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08/21/2002 10:11:15 AM · #12 |
| my voting style is a combo of LanSnake's and hbunch's ;o) |
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08/21/2002 10:55:38 AM · #13 |
I vote on the impact the photo has on me and how it relates to the current challenge.
A technically great photo could bore one to tears.
Another might not be technical but works becuase of all the things coming together.
I also like orginal ideas. When there are more than three variations of the same thing in any one challenge, it get a lower score. |
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08/21/2002 11:10:21 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by KDJohnson:
Secondly...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 10's being "sold"? Any 10's that I give out are for a shot that just "moves" me....or hits me as being spectacular as soon as I open it. I've had many 10's on the photos I've voted for and none of them were "bought". I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Forgive me if I misunderstand.
Karen
I think what they are refering to is your comment on a photo last week calling the photographer by name and saying you give him a 10. You obviously knew whose photo it was you were voting on. Of course I might be wrong here.
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08/21/2002 11:13:12 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by mscott821:
... I also like orginal ideas. When there are more than three variations of the same thing in any one challenge, it get a lower score.
so do i! and yes variations of the same idea can be boring, but repitition is a part of life...to me, fair judging is where each photo is judged, not on how many times you've seen something similar, but as if you've never ever seen it before ;o)
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08/21/2002 11:16:12 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by mscott821:
... I also like orginal ideas. When there are more than three variations of the same thing in any one challenge, it get a lower score.
so do i! and yes variations of the same idea can be boring, but repitition is a part of life...to me, fair judging is where each photo is judged, not on how many times you've seen something similar, but as if you've never ever seen it before ;o)
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08/21/2002 11:18:38 AM · #17 |
Scoring photos on this site and drawing conclusions from your score becomes quite complicated since there is no set standard on the methods for scoring.
I tried voting criteria of my own in the past and I tossed it out the window. I try to keep it simple now. 1 = very bad and 10 = very good... pretty simple, huh?
5 is an average photo. If I give a photo a 5, it means that I think the photo is simply average. I don't think that a lot of effort was put into it, but I can see what the photographer's intention was. I don't rate very many photos below a 5 unless they don't meet the challenge topic.
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08/21/2002 11:20:07 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by mscott821:
I also like orginal ideas. When there are more than three variations of the same thing in any one challenge, it get a lower score.
Unfortunately, I think this is incredibly unfair. You are penalizing a photogrpher for having the same idea as someone else?
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08/21/2002 11:28:56 AM · #19 |
I agree with John. We've also had these discussions before. How about rating on *face value*. C'mon now.
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08/21/2002 01:05:45 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by KDJohnson:
[i]Secondly...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 10's being "sold"? Any 10's that I give out are for a shot that just "moves" me....or hits me as being spectacular as soon as I open it. I've had many 10's on the photos I've voted for and none of them were "bought". I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Forgive me if I misunderstand.
Karen
I think what they are refering to is your comment on a photo last week calling the photographer by name and saying you give him a 10. You obviously knew whose photo it was you were voting on. Of course I might be wrong here.
[/i]
Jeesh....it wasn't because of the photographer...and I just happened to run across that photo on another site (pbase)...if it's the same one I think you're speaking of. The idea was original and I liked it. I give out a lot of tens by the way...and I've never been swayed for that reason...I kind of take offense to that David. I'm not here to build anyone's score up. By the way..I've looked at my comments and if you could tell me which one you are talking about, I'd appreciate it. The only one with a name is for Tomntexas...and I only left that comment AFTER the vote was over..so of course I knew that one was his.
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/21/2002 1:07:12 PM. |
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08/21/2002 01:14:07 PM · #21 |
I think one of the issues with scoring is that not everyone is using the same
scale. Some people haved stated that they have never given out a 10, while
others rarely given anything above a 7 or 8. On the other end of the scale, a
score of 1 or 2 is extremely rare, and some people only use a score below 5
very infrequently. Perhaps there is a psychological barrier, with a 5 being
associated with the "social pass" (i.e., barely acceptable) and 10 with "perfect".
I propose that scoring is only used as a ranking guideline during voting and
that the real information gathered during voting is the ordering assigned by
each voter. No matter what the actual scores are, the ranking is preserved,
so the statistically highest ranked photo wins. No one gets a score in the
end, just a ranking.
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/21/2002 1:15:35 PM. |
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08/21/2002 01:18:18 PM · #22 |
| that is an interesting idea. kind of like grading on the curve isn't it? |
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08/21/2002 01:28:47 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by KDJohnson:
[i]Secondly...I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the 10's being "sold"? Any 10's that I give out are for a shot that just "moves" me....or hits me as being spectacular as soon as I open it. I've had many 10's on the photos I've voted for and none of them were "bought". I'm not sure if that's what you mean. Forgive me if I misunderstand.
Karen
I think what they are refering to is your comment on a photo last week calling the photographer by name and saying you give him a 10. You obviously knew whose photo it was you were voting on. Of course I might be wrong here.
[/i]
Is this the comment?
Needful Things  8/12/2002
For 10 bucks spent...you get a 10. :) I think this is a great idea and well..it's just excellent, what else could anyone say? kdjohnson
What you need to understand is that I saw this photo on Photosig.com...not pbase, as I'd mentioned earlier. If you'll read the comment that the photographer left about paying the kid 10 bucks to pose for him..that's what I was referring to as being 10 bucks spent. You know what? I think I'll just stop voting or commenting at all....if people like you, David, are picking these things apart that much. It's insane.
And furthermore..this photographer didn't even know that I'd seen that photo. I haven't even spoken to him in months. I'm sorry for ranting but suggesting that I was paid to give a ten is just crazy...and it kind of pisses me off.
the ten bucks comment
* This message has been edited by the author on 8/21/2002 1:30:28 PM. |
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08/21/2002 01:36:13 PM · #24 |
| I just took a look at last weeks rankings and find that my score in this current challange whold have put me between a pile of dirt and a construction site. Ouch! |
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08/21/2002 01:42:29 PM · #25 |
I have received several complaints in the past about posting my challenge photos elsewhere before or during the challenge. In some people's mind, that is reason to give me a low score. Since the rules of this site do not state that the photo I choose to submit must not be posted anywhere else on the internet before or during the challenge, I will continue to post as is suites me.
I don't take photos for the sole purpose of participating on DPC. I like getting feedback on some of the photos that i do, so I post them to places where I can get feedback.
Some people are under the impression that this may be for the purpose of soliciting higher votes on my photo.
Take this into consideration if you believe this to be true:
1 challenge photo
252 votes on that photo
Average score (something new photo) = 5.357
Total vote points: 1350
(This photo received 2 votes of 10, btw)
Let's say that I swayed 20 people to give me votes of 10 instead of whatever they would have given me. This would have changed my average score to:
1350 - 106 = 1244
1244 + 200 = 1444
1444 / 252 = 5.73 average instead of 5.35
= .38 difference in score if i had swayed 20 people :)
As you can see, i only received two 10 votes on that photo. So, it should be fairly obvious that i'm not out there begging for votes :)
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