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01/31/2005 01:23:39 PM · #76
[quote=RonB]let's get back to the charge that Bush LIED.

during the presidential debates: Bush says - Gosh, I just don' think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations.

At a earlier point in time Bush says- "And, you know, again, I don't know where he is. I, uh, I, uh, I repeat what I said, I truly am not that concerned about...

Once again for anyone who want's to see it, here is the PROOF that George W Bush is a LIAR

THE PROOF

and here is the proof that you might not want to believe everything that that you read: what you read might be "twisted" and "fabricated" or just a snippet from the real truth.

Originally posted by RonB:
From Ericlimon's profile:
"I'm a total...dork.
I've...been taken...so I...post...photos."

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 13:24:27.
01/31/2005 01:33:01 PM · #77
Originally posted by RonB:
From Ericlimon's profile:
"I'm a total...dork.
I've...been taken...so I...post...photos."


Originally posted by RonB:

Sorry, he LIED; he DID lie, it can be PROVEN, Bush really did think that he said he wasn't worried about OBL. I can believe that he did lie because I, too, have. I represent the majority in that respect.
- from rons post (this is a distortion of the truth, he said these things, just not in this exact order)

look ron, I can do it too!

Now, who's telling the truth? either of us? or neither of us?

is lying "neither good nor bad ( but is effective, else it wouldn't be employed)" as you so perfectly pointed out about repeat tactics?

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 13:34:23.
01/31/2005 02:40:18 PM · #78
I'm going to try to refrain from making further posts today. I don't want to be held responsible if Eric works himself up to the point where he actually suffers physical harm.

But I will respond to his latest rant before closing.

No,Eric, lying is NOT "neither good nor bad" - lying is always bad ( though, lying is NOT the same thing as being mistaken, or forgetting ).
On the other hand, yes, Eric, lying IS "effective, else it wouldn't be employed".
As all liberals know, lying is especially effective when the lies are repeated again and again - as in "Bush lied", or "Kerry posted all of his medical records on his website", or "thousands of black voters were disenfranchised in Florida in 2000".
01/31/2005 02:55:28 PM · #79
As far as I can see, this discussion is going no where except back and forth, or in a circle at best.

If we have ever had a president that did not lie, I would be surprised. If we have any politicians that can be trusted further than we could throw them, I would be surprised.

It is a sad commentary on the world we live in, yes, but that is the way that it seems.

So, in the interest of photography, and all that is good in the world, let this thread die a peaceful steady death.
01/31/2005 04:12:36 PM · #80
Originally posted by karmat:

As far as I can see, this discussion is going no where except back and forth, or in a circle at best.

If we have ever had a president that did not lie, I would be surprised. If we have any politicians that can be trusted further than we could throw them, I would be surprised.

It is a sad commentary on the world we live in, yes, but that is the way that it seems.

So, in the interest of photography, and all that is good in the world, let this thread die a peaceful steady death.


Wow! It's incredible that anyone is so willing to look the other way at the sort of lies that this administration has thus far gotten away with. Do politicians -- for that matter, all individuals -- lie, of course. But, there are lies, and then there are damn lies -- and Bush & Co. have committed, and continue to commit lies of the worst sort... the kind that have cost lives. I don't know, I -- and many others -- have a strong moral compass that tell us right from wrong, and my compass clearly (without a doubt) is signaling to me that I've been lied to by this administration. How does the adage go, "Don't piss down my back and tell me that it's raining." Well, Bush and Co. have pissed down our collective backs, and now they would have us believe that it's just warm rain. I don't buy it, and I will not excuse their war of choice as simply a "little lie." Go tell that to the dead, see if they agree... am sure they would rather be alive.

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 16:16:21.
01/31/2005 04:18:28 PM · #81
bdobe -- you missed the point of my post.

To sum up eric and ron's arguement"

did too
can't prove it
did too
can't prove it
did too
can't prove it

I was simply saying that this is not the first administration to lie adn it won't be the last.

I dare say that there are lies in teh Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Eisenhower, <insert president here> administration that we may have or may not have known about. To say W is any worse than any other is a matter of opinion, and in the summarized argument of eric and ron:
it is
can't prove it.

Please, if you have anything new to add to this thread, feel free to to do so. However, I simply see it as one of several criticizing the Bush administration (you're right), adn then the same ole arguments keep coming up (again), and the same ole arguments start getting in a circle.


01/31/2005 05:11:26 PM · #82
Originally posted by karmat:

I was simply saying that this is not the first administration to lie Aden it won't be the last.

I dare say that there are lies in teh Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Eisenhower, <insert president here> administration that we may have or may not have known about. To say W is any worse than any other is a matter of opinion...


The moral relativism expressed here is astounding!

Bush apologists would have us belive that Clinton's extramarital affair and subsequent public denials are somehow equivalent to Bush's WMD lies, which plunged our country into a war of choice. Remember, in "Bush at War" (a book that was highly recommend by the administration itself during the campaign) Bush himself is quoted as having said in regards to the WMD evidence presented to him, "Is this all you've got." Yet, even after recognizing the weak case that the administration had, and, in spite of the UN's warning that Iraq no longer possessed WMDs, Bush & Co. proceeded to make the case that Iraq presented an immediate danger to the US.

I don't know how anyone is able to rationalize lies that drive a nation to war, cost thousands of lives, never mind billions of dollars, and hold them as comparable to lies about an extramarital affair. Again, there are lies and there are damn lies -- I know the difference, and know which is worst.
01/31/2005 05:28:05 PM · #83
You talk about moral relativism.

I bet you think we should help the Tsunami victims whose number is great. against a foe that we can do nothing about. (Although I suspect that you believe Bush was involved in that also).

But we should have sat by and done nothing for the Iraq victims whose number is far greater against a human foe.

After all Saddam only killed his own people. It's none of our business!

I bet you also never said one word of protest during our involvement in Bosnia. Or when Clinton bombed the Sudan.

Not that I care. You've said nothing new. Only Arab leaders, Terrorists, and the American Left are upset that Iraqis voted yesterday.

Remember: Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, War has never solved anything.

SAY NO TO WAR! Unless a Democrat is president...
01/31/2005 05:48:24 PM · #84
Originally posted by bbower1956:

You talk about moral relativism.

I bet you think we should help the Tsunami victims whose number is great. against a foe that we can do nothing about. (Although I suspect that you believe Bush was involved in that also).

But we should have sat by and done nothing for the Iraq victims whose number is far greater against a human foe.

After all Saddam only killed his own people. It's none of our business!

I bet you also never said one word of protest during our involvement in Bosnia. Or when Clinton bombed the Sudan.

Not that I care. You've said nothing new. Only Arab leaders, Terrorists, and the American Left are upset that Iraqis voted yesterday.

Remember: Except for ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism, and Communism, War has never solved anything.

SAY NO TO WAR! Unless a Democrat is president...


This is so ridiculous, it's laughable and a predictable rationalization.

I'm the left, and I'm absolutely happy that some Iraqis got to vote -- I wish that some good can come from the stupendous blunder that Bush & Co. committed in our name. Make no mistake, Bush's war is one of choice and unjust, PERIOD.

I just wish that Bush & Co. had been straight with the American people -- with us all -- about why he needed to invade Iraq. At least Clinton was honest enough to tell us that we were going to Bosnia for humanitarian reasons, and did not use some trumped up excuse to commit our military. Bush, in the other hand, knew he was using false and trumped up information, and manipulated the memory of the horrendous 9/11 attacks to dupe many of us into supporting him. It is this behavior from Bush that I find inexcusable... to the Bush apologists it may be all right, but I know right from wrong, and I don't excuse it.

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 17:51:23.
01/31/2005 06:06:05 PM · #85
Originally posted by bbower1956:

After all Saddam only killed his own people. It's none of our business!


For those who continue to watch mainstream news only, I refer you back to a previous post on this thinking:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Also the whole "Saddam is a bad bad man" argument being suddenly brought up is also ridiculous. During the 1980's the US and Saddam were best of friends, during the time when he was gassing his people, building chemical weapons and projecting external power against his neighbors.

Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam 1983:
' . substr('//www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg', strrpos('//www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Learn about the US and Saddam relationship more via declassified US documents here: U.S. DOCUMENTS SHOW EMBRACE OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN EARLY 1980s DESPITE CHEMICAL WEAPONS, EXTERNAL AGGRESSION, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES
01/31/2005 06:18:05 PM · #86
Originally posted by bbower1956:

I bet you think we should help the Tsunami victims whose number is great. against a foe that we can do nothing about. (Although I suspect that you believe Bush was involved in that also).


If he did he wouldn´t be the only one ;) Tsunami Conspiracy Theory
01/31/2005 06:33:00 PM · #87
Originally posted by THE:

Originally posted by bbower1956:

I bet you think we should help the Tsunami victims whose number is great. against a foe that we can do nothing about. (Although I suspect that you believe Bush was involved in that also).


If he did he wouldn´t be the only one ;) Tsunami Conspiracy Theory


Please don't fall into bbower1956 trap by contemplating such fringe scenarios. The subject is Bush's irresponsible use of our military... that's enough tragedy for one forum thread.
01/31/2005 06:43:34 PM · #88
Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by bbower1956:



This is so ridiculous, it's laughable and a predictable rationalization.

I'm the left, and I'm absolutely happy that some Iraqis got to vote -- I wish that some good can come from the stupendous blunder that Bush & Co. committed in our name.


Wow! Maybe you should run for office, you can't do any worse than the others that have your minority opinion who have run and lost recently.
Can anyone say second guess? Typical left: Nothing to offer but hindsight. Do you have any clear solutions to offer?
01/31/2005 06:46:25 PM · #89
Originally posted by eggv:

Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by bbower1956:



This is so ridiculous, it's laughable and a predictable rationalization.

I'm the left, and I'm absolutely happy that some Iraqis got to vote -- I wish that some good can come from the stupendous blunder that Bush & Co. committed in our name.


Wow! Maybe you should run for office, you can't do any worse than the others that have your minority opinion who have run and lost recently.
Can anyone say second guess? Typical left: Nothing to offer but hindsight. Do you have any clear solutions to offer?


Yes, the first thing we should've not have done is invade another country based on lies... everything else flows from that... it's simple logic, really. I'm surprise many fail to understand it. No invasion based on lies = no unjust war. Simple.

Typical Bush apologist: rationalize at all cost, even in the face of intellectual integrity and honesty.

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 18:53:09.
01/31/2005 06:54:43 PM · #90
I'm afraid it's not that simple bdobe.......everyone lies.
01/31/2005 06:58:52 PM · #91
Originally posted by eggv:

I'm afraid it's not that simple bdobe.......everyone lies.


Typical dismissal... lemme refer you to an earlier post addressing the manner in that Bush apologists rationalize Bush's war of choice:

Originally posted by bdobe:

Wow! It's incredible that anyone is so willing to look the other way at the sort of lies that this administration has thus far gotten away with. Do politicians -- for that matter, all individuals -- lie, of course. But, there are lies, and then there are damn lies -- and Bush & Co. have committed, and continue to commit lies of the worst sort... the kind that have cost lives. I don't know, I -- and many others -- have a strong moral compass that tell us right from wrong, and my compass clearly (without a doubt) is signaling to me that I've been lied to by this administration. How does the adage go, "Don't piss down my back and tell me that it's raining." Well, Bush and Co. have pissed down our collective backs, and now they would have us believe that it's just warm rain. I don't buy it, and I will not excuse their war of choice as simply a "little lie." Go tell that to the dead, see if they agree... am sure they would rather be alive.

01/31/2005 07:07:07 PM · #92
Originally posted by bdobe:



Typical dismissal...

OK! I give up. You lose.text

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 19:13:20.
01/31/2005 08:26:38 PM · #93
Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by eggv:

Originally posted by bdobe:

Originally posted by bbower1956:



This is so ridiculous, it's laughable and a predictable rationalization.

I'm the left, and I'm absolutely happy that some Iraqis got to vote -- I wish that some good can come from the stupendous blunder that Bush & Co. committed in our name.


Wow! Maybe you should run for office, you can't do any worse than the others that have your minority opinion who have run and lost recently.
Can anyone say second guess? Typical left: Nothing to offer but hindsight. Do you have any clear solutions to offer?


Yes, the first thing we should've not have done is invade another country based on lies... everything else flows from that... it's simple logic, really. I'm surprise many fail to understand it. No invasion based on lies = no unjust war. Simple.

Typical Bush apologist: rationalize at all cost, even in the face of intellectual integrity and honesty.


You never did answer eggv's question. You began your 'answer' by saying 'yes' to 'do you have any clear solutions to offer?' and then immediately regressed to tiresome hindsight. It's not really surprising, since you are so much better at stereotyping than answering questions. Now you have the opportunity to stereotype me. Give it your best shot.
01/31/2005 08:45:35 PM · #94
bdobe - The biggest LIAR in all of this is Saddam. He is the one that needed to come clean and prove he had no weapons. At every turn he denied access, deceived, stalled, etc when it came to inspections. Even your beloved UN and Clinton thought he had weapons. If you remember, the Dems stalled the start of this war to "give inspections another chance". I believe it gave him able time to move them to Syria. We are only talking a briefcase needed to wipe out a huge metropolis, not some stockpile that the media has convinced the public he had.

We were not in Bosnia for humanitarian reasons. I'm sure Clinton bombed the Sudan for humanitarian reasons. St. Hillary supported regime change in Iraq as did Al Gore. Although, Gore changed his mind shortly after he lost it.

I think you'd change your tune if Saddam had been killing hippies. After all what are a million Muslims.
01/31/2005 08:48:53 PM · #95
How to fix these problems is pretty straight forward but would require real change; a few suggestions:

Fire those responsible for the massive failures, as with any organization of people. When the US nuclear sub ran aground last month the captain was dismissed of his duty. And that wasnít even directly his fault; they had bad undersea charts for the area.

Re-examine the US foreign policy that is causing these problems and head the international community opinion. We are all on this earth together.

Stop reliance on unstable countries for most of our energy. Not only would it stop the US being a slave to unstable Middle East but those country's would stop having a steady flow of billions and would need to expand their economic footprint so that they would have a more diverse economy, giving the people of the country more of a chance to succeed. This would also break the tyrannical rule of those oilocracies that rule the Middle East with an iron fist.

Stop letting economics rule and everything else come in second. Some things are just more important than if they are economically viable.

Etc.

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 21:01:11.
01/31/2005 09:00:07 PM · #96
Originally posted by bbower1956:

bdobe - The biggest LIAR in all of this is Saddam. He is the one that needed to come clean and prove he had no weapons. At every turn he denied access, deceived, stalled, etc when it came to inspections. Even your beloved UN and Clinton thought he had weapons. If you remember, the Dems stalled the start of this war to "give inspections another chance". I believe it gave him able time to move them to Syria. We are only talking a briefcase needed to wipe out a huge metropolis, not some stockpile that the media has convinced the public he had.

We were not in Bosnia for humanitarian reasons. I'm sure Clinton bombed the Sudan for humanitarian reasons. St. Hillary supported regime change in Iraq as did Al Gore. Although, Gore changed his mind shortly after he lost it.

I think you'd change your tune if Saddam had been killing hippies. After all what are a million Muslims.


You should not assume everyone who dislikes Bush policies idolizes Clinton; itís a false pretense.

And as far as your "Saddam is a bad guy" argument; please read what I posted above and the link to the National Security Archive I posted. The US supported him through the times where most of his atrocities took place. So the US Government suddenly growing a conscious is unlikely.

People should study the state of the US economy and failing dollar value to gain perspective.
01/31/2005 09:09:49 PM · #97
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

How to fix these problems is pretty straight forward but would require real change; a few suggestions:

Fire those responsible for the massive failures.


text

OK, Young man. Never make another mistake, and you will not be judged by those like you! (NOT!) You will allways be judged by those who differ from your opnion.

01/31/2005 09:18:14 PM · #98
Originally posted by eggv:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

How to fix these problems is pretty straight forward but would require real change; a few suggestions:

Fire those responsible for the massive failures.


text

OK, Young man. Never make another mistake, and you will not be judged by those like you! (NOT!) You will allways be judged by those who differ from your opnion.


A mistake I make doesnít cost thousands of lives and my childrenís financial and biological future.
01/31/2005 09:33:30 PM · #99
Never! Make another mistake young man. It' as easy as never making another bad photograph. We've all made many haven't we?
01/31/2005 09:47:26 PM · #100
Originally posted by eggv:

Never! Make another mistake young man. It' as easy as never making another bad photograph. We've all made many haven't we?


Do you mean a mistake like this one:

' . substr('//i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg', strrpos('//i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/28/mission.accomplished/vstory.bush.banner.afp.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

To date none of the Bush apologists have offered an explanation as to why they continue to support an administration that commits one blunder after another. Instead, the Bush apologists continue to reward failure, after failure, after failure...

I guess they take cues from Bush himself. It's incredible that Bush rewards those around him that have failed him, whether it is awarding medals, or promoting them to higher cabinet posts. Shoot, I'd love a job like that... where failure if rewarded, no matter what the cost.

Message edited by author 2005-01-31 21:53:36.
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