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12/15/2004 08:56:00 AM · #1 |
I have a FLAG photograph in the wind challenge and after reading a post or two, I find that once again people are going to vote down some pictures because they feel they are to many of the same images [or it seems to imply]. I find this disturbing. How can this be a learning site when people blatantly vote down some photographs because of frequency? Unless the lesson to be learned at this site is to not to take a picture of something that many may take a picture of. But then again most of us don’t have the luxury of sharing our photographs with other DCP users / members before submitting to get advice on what may or may not do well that could alter or change our entry. Many of us don’t have access to windmills, studio setups, or other things that may meet the challenge.
What I have learned here is that some feel it is necessary to post negatively about certain aspects of a challenge such as multiple entries while voting is going on that may obscure the way others vote.
So I challenge each person that votes down a picture, be it a flag or anything else because of frequency to at least post a comment why you felt that was appropriate. If you have time to post in the forums about it, you have time to comment.
What made me get upset about this is after this thread started my picture began to get some low votes. That’s ok, I did NOT expect it to be a ribbon winner or even come close but I didn’t expect “1” votes to rolling in. Maybe the “1” vote(s) are troll voters OR maybe they were obscured by threads such as the one linked above. Think about it….
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12/15/2004 09:12:49 AM · #2 |
I haven't voted or entered, so my assessment is from a different perspective:
24 out of 204 are flag shots.
One of the lessons of this site is to be creative and original. There is NOTHING original about taking a flag shot to depict wind. If you don't have access to anything else, perhaps you should sit a challenge out rather than submit what you must know before entering is going to be a ridiculously common picture.
Also - if you submit a national flag - not everyone here is American. Not everyone here LIKES Americans (or Canucks). You will be voted down for having an American flag. If you do not know about other people's intense dislike for our country, now you do as well.
I bet one of the flag pictures does well. It's a well taken photo. Other than that, I bet the others all finish in the bottom half.
Quality of average flag photo: 4
Uniqueness/creativity of flag photo: 2
Average flag photo if I were voting: 3.
M
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12/15/2004 09:14:57 AM · #3 |
well, one of the things all of us here have to learn is to be original (yes, it can be learnt, at least to a degree) and think "out of the box" and get fresh takes on things. See for example EddyG's recent ribbon.
I'm not encouraging ppl to do the same, anyway the effect is soon lost. But there were a couple of staged (bit obviously) photos in the wind challenge, that I liked and voted high, even tho they were faulty.
I don't think posts in the forums have a decisive effect on the voting, if somebody feel strongly enough about something to post about it there are surely lot of other ppl that have come to the same conclusion independently but see no reason to post (or even stay out of the forums completely).
Then again, if you're photo is good, then being a flag is incidental and it'll get good votes. By good I mean = liked by the DPC ppl.
Troll voters are counted out in the final challenge results calculations (if I've understood this correctly).
just my .02$
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12/15/2004 09:34:26 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
How can this be a learning site when people blatantly vote down some photographs because of frequency? Unless the lesson to be learned at this site is to not to take a picture of something that many may take a picture of. |
Though you didn't intend to make this point, I think you made it very well. It is a *very* valuable learning experience to to not take pictures that are trite and/or commonplace. We all do it, but we are all better when we try something different.
How long did you spend looking for a flag? How long did you take composing your image? What were your thoughts as you created your shot? Did you try to bring something new to a composition of a flag blowing in the wind. It might have even been something that was new to *you* but not anyone else, for example, playing with stutter priority mode and seeing the differences between stopping the flag in motion at 1/1000 sec versus getting a perhaps pleasantly blurred image at a slower shutter speed. Even when capturing the 1/1000 sec shot, some of your frames would be better compositions than others due to the way the flag would have been positioned at that instant.
mavrik stated below that he thinks one of the flag shots will do better than the bulk of the others. Here is a challenge within a challenge for you - try to figure out which one he is talking about. Add a critique to that image telling the photographer why you liked that one better than the others. Then add a critique to any or all of the other ones telling those photographers what their image lacked (and use the first shot as a point of reference)
I have no doubt that you will learn something good from such an exercise.
Dave
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12/15/2004 09:49:30 AM · #5 |
All of you have good and valid points. I guess I see things different sometimes, but I had to vent. I want to thank all of you for posting [in depth] on this. I think I can calm down now. [lol]. I hope people didn’t think I was being rude because that was not my intent.
As far as a few questions. I drove 17miles before finding the flag that would [IMO] be the best, and took my time composing the shot before taking about 25 pictures. While looking at the flag I pictured in my head with SS to use based on the way the wind was blowing the flag. So yes I took my time. It was not a 5 min. flag shot submitted at the end just to be in the challenge.
Message edited by author 2004-12-15 09:50:17. |
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12/15/2004 10:08:44 AM · #6 |
| I would like to make two pionts if I may. One, there were 14 grass pictures, and that does not include trees and shrubs, but no one say "If I see one more piece of grass". I too entered a flag picture and I knew it would not score the best, but other things I tried just did not turn out the way I would have liked. I am not going to complain about the score that I have so far because I know it is about what it desevers, but the comment that got me was that, (not everyone likes the American flag or the Canucks). For anyone to nock a photo or any work of art just because it may have a symbol of a country that you dislike, is a sign of prejudice and not artistic taste. I hope that no one follows those standards of voting on this web sight. |
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12/15/2004 10:10:07 AM · #7 |
| just don't put the glass slippers on...;-) I must admit I for one don't particularly like flags, yet the flags, or most of them are well presented. I will look again for my second round to re-evaluate my scores. Yip, we should not vote anything down for any silly reason, we should evaluate what's on offer in front of us. |
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12/15/2004 10:29:23 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by puma:
For anyone to nock a photo or any work of art just because it may have a symbol of a country that you dislike, is a sign of prejudice and not artistic taste. I hope that no one follows those standards of voting on this web sight. |
what if I had entered the Nazi flag? Or a swastica blowing in the wind. C'mon man, some symbols are just so saturated with bad wibes. NOTE: I'm implying that the US flag has anything in common with ze third reich.
There are a few symbols/subjects that seem to come up in just about every challenge, including:
Cat
Dogs
(american) flags
I'm dead tired of that unholy trinity, and am on the verge of voting them all down to stop ppl posting 'em.
yes, and smiling cute kids. enough please :)
These are the subjects that are very dear to their owners/parents/can-openers/etc but are VERY difficult to justice in a photo so that all get the mood and wibe
Cheers
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12/15/2004 10:53:35 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Gauti:
There are a few symbols/subjects that seem to come up in just about every challenge, including:
Cat
Dogs
... and smiling cute kids |
Oh please, Oh please do us a favor and don't vote on the people and pets challenge! All I've got to choose from is cats, dogs and cute smiling children. I'm sure others are in the same position. Maybe I can locate an ugly old man and a rodent, but my time is so limited.
A long time ago I had an art teacher who stressed that each picture, painting, sculpture was worthy of a look to see the beauty within. You may not like the subject matter or the technique used by the artist but you should look beyond that to see what was at the heart of the piece of work. I too have a dreaded flag photo. I worked hard to make sure is wasn't just another rectangle flag in the wind. I knew going in that there would be the judgmental bias against the American flag or flags in general. The subject was wind and this was the best representation, and my best photo for the challenge.
Debi
Message edited by author 2004-12-15 11:02:49. |
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12/15/2004 11:07:09 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by debitipton:
A long time ago I had an art teacher who stressed that each picture, painting, sculpture was worthy of a look to see the beauty within. You may not like the subject matter or the technique used by the artist but you should look beyond that to see what was at the heart of the piece of work.
Debi |
If it's a good flag photo, it should get a vote on the "good" side of the scale.
Message edited by author 2004-12-15 11:08:08. |
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12/15/2004 11:07:54 AM · #11 |
I bet one of the flag pictures does well. It's a well taken photo. Other than that, I bet the others all finish in the bottom half.
I hope you will be leaving a comment on the one that you feel is the best :) |
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12/15/2004 11:59:21 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by debitipton:
Oh please, Oh please do us a favor and don't vote on the people and pets challenge! All I've got to choose from is cats, dogs and cute smiling children. I'm sure others are in the same position. Maybe I can locate an ugly old man and a rodent, but my time is so limited.
Debi |
Hmmm, a homeless guy sleeping under an american flag being eaten by a big sewer rat...or feral dog. Maybe being urinated on while he sleeps...
orginal, perhaps able to be photographed well, but not likely to score well.
There are not may cretive ways to take a flag pic. I have not looked at wind yet, but decided not to enter my flag shot - there is a flag plaza near there that flys about a dozen american flags that might offer some creative compositional possibilites. I was going to enter either a POW-MIA or state flag. I know the US flag takes voting hits.
In the broken challenge i have one of the lightbulb entires. There are many of them, i think I have a creative take on it - I am at 5.39+/- and the comments back up my thoughts.
So it IS possible to be original with a trite subject.
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12/15/2004 12:08:20 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
There are not may cretive ways to take a flag pic. |
lol
Your own mind limits your creativity, not the subject. |
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12/15/2004 12:27:44 PM · #14 |
| 8 Cute dogs and kid pic's. One horse |
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12/15/2004 12:34:13 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
There are not may cretive ways to take a flag pic. |
lol
Your own mind limits your creativity, not the subject. |
So you condone the use of mind expanding drugs to increase creativity?
Which ones work best?
I find beer limits my ability to focus the camera. How 'bout you?
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12/15/2004 12:45:44 PM · #16 |
| I don't think you can blame the other thread for lowering of votes. It was only 30 minutes into voting when it was posted! you couldn't have had more than 10 votes by then, at that point the votes seem almost random in nature. As for the whole wind competition in general i'm for the most part very let down by it. There seems to be much less thought put into it that many of the other challenges. |
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12/15/2004 12:50:01 PM · #17 |
SDW65,
Over analysizing and causing yourself all that stress isn't worth your time.
It's been pointed out many times that just about 100% of the top placing shots all receive 1's and 2's. If you get low scores, it's because people don't like your photo...is that really a HUGE deal? For every one person who doesn't like it, there's someone else who does.
Message edited by author 2004-12-15 12:50:39. |
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12/15/2004 01:48:17 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
SDW65,
Over analysizing and causing yourself all that stress isn't worth your time.
It's been pointed out many times that just about 100% of the top placing shots all receive 1's and 2's. If you get low scores, it's because people don't like your photo...is that really a HUGE deal? For every one person who doesn't like it, there's someone else who does. |
Actually and unusually, the top 3 in Landmarks didn't get a single 1 or 2. Also if you look at the bottom 3 in any given challenge they have each a few 8s, 9s and 10s. You can't please everybody all the time, nor can you displease everybody all the time :)
@debitipton: I never said I voted them down, just that I sometimes wanted to do so. Sure it's possible to disconnect the, lets say, technical & compositional aspects of a photo from the subjective/emotional/etc aspects. But both are in play in the voting, so you must do a photo that works well in both. And don't forget the title.
As a side note: you number-crunchers out there -> when does the score get stable? I mean, after how many votes is it unlikely to change by more than a (say) +/- 0.1 Is my score at 50,100,200,etc a good pointer towards my final score?
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12/15/2004 01:51:16 PM · #19 |
| Gauti, I found, particularly with my Yellow entry, the score changed by about .1 every day (fortunately up). After the first 24 hours, the score, for me, has been within a half-point, roughly, of where it ended up. |
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12/15/2004 02:07:53 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
SDW65,
Over analysizing and causing yourself all that stress isn't worth your time.
It's been pointed out many times that just about 100% of the top placing shots all receive 1's and 2's. If you get low scores, it's because people don't like your photo...is that really a HUGE deal? For every one person who doesn't like it, there's someone else who does. |
I respect your response and do agree with what you said. My main point, and I probably did not do a good job of wording it, is I don’t agree with post that start during the voting period that may impact a set of photos. How many times have we see newbies and others ask, “how do you vote” in an attempt to help tune in there voting skills? These are the people that may be obscured into voting low because they believe others are voting a picture down because of frequency and believe its common thing to do.
Is it too much to ask that people talk about after the voting ends?
Now with that said my FLAG photo is doing ok, I’m not complaining on the majority of the votes. Where my score sits, I believe it to be fair [for now lol] because it goes up and down.
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12/15/2004 03:13:20 PM · #21 |
I think one of the problems with submitting picture of a subject that many other people will be submitting is that you gain nothing for creativity and your work will - deliberately or unconciously - be compared to the many others. For instance, in the Yellow challenge, after looking at McDonald's arches from a variety of angles, some very creative, I come upon a fairly ordinary shot of a McDonald's showing the whole restaurant with the arches in the foreground. Kind of a better than average real-estate shot. It was impossible not to think of this as a terribly uncreative and boring picture after seeing the same subject shot in some creative ways. If your subject is unique and interesting, you'll get many viewers who are willing to overlook minor technical flaws and give it a good score. If your subject is the same as many others, you had better have every technical aspect perfect and be shooting that subject in a different and interesting way. I don't expect all flag shots to get low scores - but I would expect the ones that get good scores to be technically flawless and creatively composed.
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12/15/2004 04:00:44 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by puma:
I would like to make two pionts if I may. One, there were 14 grass pictures, and that does not include trees and shrubs, but no one say "If I see one more piece of grass".
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Maybe it's because flags are in EVERY challenge. Talk about unoriginal.
Originally posted by puma:
I too entered a flag picture and I knew it would not score the best, but other things I tried just did not turn out the way I would have liked. I am not going to complain about the score that I have so far because I know it is about what it desevers, but the comment that got me was that, (not everyone likes the American flag or the Canucks). For anyone to nock a photo or any work of art just because it may have a symbol of a country that you dislike, is a sign of prejudice and not artistic taste. I hope that no one follows those standards of voting on this web sight. |
Why submit it if you're not satisfied with it? Some people are masochists...
As for voting down national flags, art is emotion. Americans these days leave nobody indifferent. So. (I don't condone this, just trying to "explain"). |
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12/15/2004 04:16:52 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If it's a good flag photo, it should get a vote on the "good" side of the scale. |
Yep, and good people shouldn't die young.
Also nobody should contract any horrible diseases....
And for my third wish....(fill in the blank yourself).
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12/15/2004 04:36:33 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Blackdog:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If it's a good flag photo, it should get a vote on the "good" side of the scale. |
Yep, and good people shouldn't die young.
Also nobody should contract any horrible diseases....
And for my third wish....(fill in the blank yourself). |
But here ensuring the "right thing" happens is within our control, and not subject to the vagaries of seemingly cruel fate ... it's a matter of attitude, not kismet.
Here's some of my flag photos at DPC:
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=128104
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=69361
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=15867
and at pBase:
//www.pbase.com/generale/image/20721692
//www.pbase.com/generale/image/4093006
//www.pbase.com/generale/image/18620042
Message edited by author 2004-12-15 16:44:23. |
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12/15/2004 04:56:57 PM · #25 |
That's my point, submitting the right photo, the one YOU like, not the most appealing photo is within our control.
The vagaries of the voters is most certainly not within our control and never will be. As has been said before there are two types of photo's on this site submitted for challenges. The mass appeal photo and the photo that the photographer thinks he / she should submit.
I'm not knocking or condoning anything or anybody just stating what I believe.
Its a discussion that will go on as long as DPC exists.
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