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03/07/2003 10:47:08 AM · #76
You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.
-I'll reveal who this is from later
03/07/2003 11:06:27 AM · #77
Man, it seems most of us americans forget so much!!!

The more I read, it seems that Pres. Bush has managed to convince our country's populace that Saddam Hussein has something to do with terrorism... In psychology we call this transference of hate. It seems weíre out for blood, any blood. A mob mentality if you will.

I have a prediction, and this shows how much trust i have of the US gov, something big will happen which will convince the majority to move forward into war. The only problem is that this something that will happen will be pulled off by our own gov't. The American people need just a nudge... If this sounds crazy just look at the war PR and or our countries history (US folks). Remember the fictitious stories of the last war in Iraq that surfaced?

And another note on history, this won't officially be war. The last official war was in WWII.

If not terrorism, I keep hearing that the true move for this strike is to spread democracy, this is crap. Itís democracy that halting this war. Itís democracy that convinced turkey to not support the US troops. It seems to me, given all the protests, that democracy is what were lacking in the US.

Wellís Big Brother theory is becoming more and more true everyday. You know how they tracked Bin Ladden a couple of days ago? The computers were able to identify his voice on the phone. Had he used a phone in Canada, they would know.

Iím usually not a conspiracy person but we, as Americans are showing our true colors and itís apparent that RED and WHITE were more prominent than we thought.

Let's also not forget how 1,000's of people were disenfranchised by our own goverment and thereby throwing the election. The popular vote was not for our current president.

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 11:12:30.
03/07/2003 11:09:04 AM · #78
terrorism isn't gasing your own people to determine the effectiveness of your weapons? you loco amigo
03/07/2003 11:24:14 AM · #79
Originally posted by achiral:

terrorism isn't gasing your own people to determine the effectiveness of your weapons? you loco amigo


No, it's not. Terrorism is an action carried with the express purpose of is defined as The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. Using one's own people as victims to test weapons, while deplorable, is not terrorism.
03/07/2003 11:33:02 AM · #80
cant we all just get along?.........







......sorry, I couldnt resist :)
03/07/2003 11:48:31 AM · #81
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:

Originally posted by achiral:

terrorism isn't gasing your own people to determine the effectiveness of your weapons? you loco amigo


No, it's not. Terrorism is an action carried with the express purpose of is defined as The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. Using one's own people as victims to test weapons, while deplorable, is not terrorism.


how does an act like that not meet all of the above criteria. of course he meant to intimidate and coerce the people there, he's a dictator
03/07/2003 11:49:21 AM · #82
Originally posted by achiral:

terrorism isn't gasing your own people to determine the effectiveness of your weapons? you loco amigo


no, but it is wrong...it's also wrong to support people who do that as the U.S. did when Iraq gassed his own people. Saddam had full support from the U.S. to conduct those attacks as it was also against the Iranians...and it was at the time 'the right thing to do, strategically'

like I said before...educate yourself...don't just repeat what your president is saying, cause he's lying to you!! YOU should find out the facts for yourself!
03/07/2003 11:52:17 AM · #83
A question posed to those of you who so eloquently oppose America's plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism:

If our plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism is so wrong, what is the 'right' course of action...including contingencies and time frames?

It is easy to criticize the decisions of those in power....however, it is not so easy to make those decisions yourself. Unlike those of you sitting @ your computers, spewing facts/opinions on the matter just to pass time, our leaders are in a position in which they must act.
They must choose the plan that they think is 'best.' There is no perfect plan.

I, for one, am so grateful that we have people who are willing to sacrifice their lives (for a time) to making these decisions for our country. I have faith that our leaders will do their best...and I have faith in our system of checks and balances, political parties, etc that will surely expose a leader who is acting in bad conscience.

Many of you hyper-political folk will say having such trust is naiive and basically 'stupid.' I wonder though...I spend my days and nights concentrating on my family, friends, and local community (and photography :P)...things that I CAN impact. Some of you have spent hours researching this issue and posting to this thread...to what avail?

disclaimer: If you plan on dedicating your life to monitoring and lobbying for/against causes...I'm sure you can have an impact on worldwide issues. :)

03/07/2003 12:03:11 PM · #84
Originally posted by Froober:

A question posed to those of you who so eloquently oppose America's plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism:

If our plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism is so wrong, what is the 'right' course of action...including contingencies and time frames?

It is easy to criticize the decisions of those in power....however, it is not so easy to make those decisions yourself. Unlike those of you sitting @ your computers, spewing facts/opinions on the matter just to pass time, our leaders are in a position in which they must act.
They must choose the plan that they think is 'best.' There is no perfect plan.

I, for one, am so grateful that we have people who are willing to sacrifice their lives (for a time) to making these decisions for our country. I have faith that our leaders will do their best...and I have faith in our system of checks and balances, political parties, etc that will surely expose a leader who is acting in bad conscience.

Many of you hyper-political folk will say having such trust is naiive and basically 'stupid.' I wonder though...I spend my days and nights concentrating on my family, friends, and local community (and photography :P)...things that I CAN impact. Some of you have spent hours researching this issue and posting to this thread...to what avail?

disclaimer: If you plan on dedicating your life to monitoring and lobbying for/against causes...I'm sure you can have an impact on worldwide issues. :)


Why do they HAVE to do it now? What's different from the other 17 inspections? WHY? Why can't they wait until the inspection is over? WHY!
03/07/2003 01:08:06 PM · #85
How come no one responded to my post? There are some very valid points that i'd like to hear how you all feel on them.
03/07/2003 01:36:45 PM · #86
Geocide,
I do not appreciate and I bet many veterans would not appreciate you saying that WW2 was the last official war. I don't know what your definition of a war is but if weapons are fired, people die then that's a war to me.

I just want to add that I don't think the families of those lost in wars would appreciate your comment. And I don't mean just U.S. citizens. I mean everyone around the world.

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 13:42:27.
03/07/2003 01:36:50 PM · #87
Originally posted by Geocide:

Man, it seems most of us americans forget so much!!!

The more I read, it seems that Pres. Bush has managed to convince our country's populace that Saddam Hussein has something to do with terrorism... In psychology we call this transference of hate. It seems weíre out for blood, any blood. A mob mentality if you will.

I have a prediction, and this shows how much trust i have of the US gov, something big will happen which will convince the majority to move forward into war. The only problem is that this something that will happen will be pulled off by our own gov't. The American people need just a nudge... If this sounds crazy just look at the war PR and or our countries history (US folks). Remember the fictitious stories of the last war in Iraq that surfaced?

And another note on history, this won't officially be war. The last official war was in WWII.

If not terrorism, I keep hearing that the true move for this strike is to spread democracy, this is crap. Itís democracy that halting this war. Itís democracy that convinced turkey to not support the US troops. It seems to me, given all the protests, that democracy is what were lacking in the US.

Wellís Big Brother theory is becoming more and more true everyday. You know how they tracked Bin Ladden a couple of days ago? The computers were able to identify his voice on the phone. Had he used a phone in Canada, they would know.

Iím usually not a conspiracy person but we, as Americans are showing our true colors and itís apparent that RED and WHITE were more prominent than we thought.

Let's also not forget how 1,000's of people were disenfranchised by our own goverment and thereby throwing the election. The popular vote was not for our current president.


You have a minority opinion. This is a democracy and the majority support action on Iraq. The election argument is rediculous, get over it. I don't need to explain the electoral college, because you know about it, and choose to ignore it. If Gore would have been elected, you would be hearing the same things from republicans about how he is illegitimate because half the country voted for Bush, but those arguments do nothing for the issue at hand, yet seems to constantly hold people from the left side back. Your propaganda laced statements indicate that you really don't care to have a good discussion. Although I disagree with lisae on pretty much everything, she has done a good job of laying her position out, and I can respect that. But stuff like this that you write doesn't do anything for the discussion it just keeps moving everything towards regression. President Bush had the support to attack Iraq well before Semptember 11 I'm assuming. Especially since nothing new has come out of Iraq since then. It's all the same old tired crap from Saddam. No one wants war, but no one wants an insane dictator harboring WMDs either. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Earlier this week there were reports that as part of Iraq's compliance with resolution 1441 of the United Nations, Iraq was going to provide reports the detail the country's destruction of nerve agents. The idea of doing that NOW is completely crazy. It was in his best interest, if it is the truth, to have done so months ago when the 11,000 page Iraqi arms report was given to the UN. This to me looks like the kind of delay tactic that Saddam has always used. Give the world community something to nibble on while he plans his next move. No one on either side will claim that Saddam Hussein is a stable leader of a country. Everyone knows he is an oppressor. Given the fact about what we have learned about Al Qaeda, why is it so impossible that Hussein would sell or give WMD to terrorist organizations? This is what makes the situation different than North Korea. North Korea is a poor, needy country that is also ruled by a crazy leader, but regional pressure should be able to stop NK's violent and inflammatory rhetoric and actions. Countries around NK including China do not see NK gaining nuclear power as a good thing, and pressure from these countries will be able to deter NK, even after Nk builds the nukes. On the other hand you have Iraq, in a region where there is already great instability. If Saddam decided to use WMD against Israel for example, countries in that region will not be as likely to do anything about that because they want Israel out as well. To eliminate the most imminent threat of this occuring makes sense in my opinion.

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 13:43:25.
03/07/2003 01:48:24 PM · #88
Originally posted by zadore:

Originally posted by achiral:

terrorism isn't gasing your own people to determine the effectiveness of your weapons? you loco amigo


no, but it is wrong...it's also wrong to support people who do that as the U.S. did when Iraq gassed his own people. Saddam had full support from the U.S. to conduct those attacks as it was also against the Iranians...and it was at the time 'the right thing to do, strategically'

like I said before...educate yourself...don't just repeat what your president is saying, cause he's lying to you!! YOU should find out the facts for yourself!


i want you to educate us. i think you're full of it. so i'm calling your bluff. where did you find the privledged information that you are now coveying to us in order to enlighten us?

i have seen pictures of Chirac standing side by side in a Nuclear reactor with Saddam Hussein, but I don't accuse him of aiding Saddam to where he has come today. Those arguments are preposterous

and along those same lines, how about reading this article.

French Company Selling Spare Parts For Use By Iraqi Military

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 13:51:35.
03/07/2003 02:19:59 PM · #89
to achiral you can start here and then follow the footnotes for the sources...read what the US was doing in the 80's.

Hope this educates you a bit more (you and others)

US relations with IRAQ since the 80's

03/07/2003 03:09:48 PM · #90
Originally posted by zadore:

to achiral you can start here and then follow the footnotes for the sources...read what the US was doing in the 80's.

Hope this educates you a bit more (you and others)

US relations with IRAQ since the 80's


thank you zadore. i've been wanting to see something like that. yes it is interesting to see how the US aided iraq in the 80s. i guess it ultimately comes down to the same type of argument that gun lobbyists and anti-gun folks talk about. who is guilty, the person who pulled the trigger or the gun? i would say the person who pulled the trigger. we "allowed" russia to aquire nuclear weapons right along with us during much of the 20th century, yet they didn't use a nuke in war. saddam has shown his ability to act completely out of the norm for legitimate governments in the world. i think it was a mistake looking back on it, to give iraq some additional capabilities, but we didn't actually gas his people or the iranians, he ordered those attacks. iran was a big problem in the 80s for the world, and this doesn't surprise me. i'm curious to what you would say about why the US would give iraq technology that would allow iraq to hit our forces in saudi arabia? it was an act of good faith at the time, however wrong that sounds. saddam has repeatedly chosen to take the path of a ruthless dictator not someone who is working to his country's best interest. since then who has given iraq weapons capability? that would be france, in part, but you don't seem as worried about that aspect. I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find a report listing the US supporting iraq militarily since 1990. but there are plenty or reports about france. but that's okay right? again thank you for your article, it was very informative
03/07/2003 08:09:57 PM · #91
good lord there are so many postings since this morning it would take a year to answer them all... the only thing I noticed was that no one answered any of the questions I posed from my first post on... other than that it is blatantly obvious that our paradigms are so far apart we will never see eye to eye on this situation... I just hope you all don't have to learn the hard way, like those that have come before us... you all seem to forget about history and how it tends to repeat itself... maybe when you finally peel off those blinders your wearing and wake up, you will see what needs to been done.. and for the person who made the post about bush not finishing the job, you might want to do some homework.. the first bush did exactally what the UN resolved to do, and going in to take out saddam was not a part of that... bush was only working diplomatically with the UN, just as his son is trying to do now.. unfortunately the UN is a joke and their resolutions no longer carry any weight, as proven by the fact that saddam continues to violate and nothing is being done other than making more resolutions... saddam is laughing at you all...

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 20:11:27.
03/07/2003 09:44:53 PM · #92
Originally posted by Anachronite:

good lord there are so many postings since this morning it would take a year to answer them all...

See! We can find common ground...and I'm going to stop for now before I find it's quicksand.
03/07/2003 09:50:01 PM · #93
Am I still on the photography site??
03/07/2003 09:52:30 PM · #94
Yes, but in the RANT area where we are allowed to get off on "tangential" topics as long as we stay polite...

This started with a discussion of people being restricted or harrassed when trying to photograph public bridges.

Message edited by author 2003-03-07 21:53:34.
03/07/2003 11:39:56 PM · #95
Heres what will happen take a look LOL

//idleworm.wolffelaar.nl/nws/2002/11/swf/iraq2.swf

Message edited by author 2003-03-08 01:02:15.
03/07/2003 11:59:20 PM · #96
Originally posted by achiral:

can anyone give me a factual reason to back up statements like

"c'mon you can't honestly think we care about the Iraqi people"


While I don't think that the governments who currently want the war, do not care at all about the Iraqi people, but in my opinion they care too less. Two examples:

- Madeleine Albright said that the death of half a million children is worth it, meaning the sanctions as an effort to destabilize Husseins regime.
- The UN reports that another war in Iraq will be a humanitarian disaster. But this seems to be no reason against the war for some countries.

Originally posted by achiral:

"you know we're only doing it for oil"


Well, you won't find bullet proof evidence because these governments just don't _say_ "we do it for the oil". But there are indications:

- The Iraq has the second biggest oil reservoirs of the world. Now this alone is no evidence and could be coincidental, but it's not like there is no reason.
- A report called Strategic Energy Policy Challenges For The 21st Century, requested by the Bush administration, says "Iraq remains a destabilizing influence to U.S. allies in the Middle East, [...], and to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East.". And "[...] the United States remains a prisoner of its energy dilemma, suffering on a recurring basis from the negative consequences of sporadic energy shortages. These consequences can include recession, social dislocation of the poorest Americans, and at the extremes, a need for military intervention.". It suggests: "The United States should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq, including military, energy, economic, and political/diplomatic assessments." This document was delivered to Vice-President Dick Cheney, chairman of the White House Energy Policy Development Group, in April 2001.
- Bush Administration has strong ties to the oil industry and got lots of money for his election campaign. So there is some kind of lobby pressure on Bush.
- After the war in Afghanistan, one of the first things done was agreeing on building a pipeline, a project abandoned in 1998 by US energy company Unocal.

Now everybody has a different level of trust to the government and it's up to you to conclude that the planned war on Iraq is about the oil or not. But it sure should make you suspicious.
03/08/2003 12:32:38 AM · #97
reasons not to attack iraq

THIS SITE has done a LOT of research and backs ALL its facts up with references. Take a look at the 'Reasons to attack Iraq' then explore the stuff on the right side menu. Overwhelming, but full of TRUE information.
03/08/2003 12:52:28 AM · #98
Originally posted by achiral:

You have a minority opinion. This is a democracy and the majority support action on Iraq.


Maybe in the US but in many other countries this is not the case. In the UN Security Council there are currently 4 states supporting a war and 5 states against a war. This looks like a majority against a war to me.

Originally posted by achiral:

Your propaganda laced statements indicate that you really don't care to have a good discussion.


Calling somebody elses opinion "propaganda laced statements" doesn't look like you're interested in a good discussion either.

Originally posted by achiral:

No one wants war, but no one wants an insane dictator harboring WMDs either.


I find these "Nobody wants war, BUT ..." statements very funny. Either you support war or you don't. In this case there is no inbetween.


Originally posted by achiral:

Given the fact about what we have learned about Al Qaeda, why is it so impossible that Hussein would sell or give WMD to terrorist organizations?


Because neither there is proof of a link between Hussein and Al Qaeda nor that he has WMD any terrorist organisation can't get from somewhere else. I don't account someone guilty without proof. This is something I learned in our free and democratic world.
03/08/2003 01:02:00 AM · #99
Originally posted by Froober:

A question posed to those of you who so eloquently oppose America's plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism:

If our plan to deal with Saddam/terrorism is so wrong, what is the 'right' course of action...including contingencies and time frames?


The right thing to do is reach concensus with the UN security council and America's allies on what to do. The wrong thing to do is act unilaterally.

I don't think that's a particularly difficult idea to grasp.

All the governments that are currently against this campaign - France, Germany, Turkey, Russia and the "alliance of the unwilling" are political leaders in their own right. They know as much about what's going on as Bush does, and they oppose him.

I'm not here saying I know what to do or have all the answers. I simply believe that it's wrong for Bush to act alone.

Edit: You also pretty much asked why I (probably not just me, but I'm sure I'm one of the main people you were referring to) would devote so much time to learning about these issues and arguing about them. Well, it's just what interests me. Some people play computer games or knit jumpers... I watch the news, read newspapers, and argue about politics. I have friends I do it with. We go out to dinner and shout at each other :). I come from a family where my father ran for government seats several times when I was growing up, and I've been a member of the Greens for quite a few years now. Politics is just one of my passions, among many.

Message edited by author 2003-03-08 01:08:28.
03/08/2003 01:11:21 AM · #100
Originally posted by jimmyn4:

Geocide,
I do not appreciate and I bet many veterans would not appreciate you saying that WW2 was the last official war. I don't know what your definition of a war is but if weapons are fired, people die then that's a war to me.

I just want to add that I don't think the families of those lost in wars would appreciate your comment. And I don't mean just U.S. citizens. I mean everyone around the world.


By Official war, I mean an official war as recognized by the government. Everything since has been a police action. It is never a war until a declaration of war has been approved by congress. This hasn't happened since WWII
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