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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Photoshop - Let me get this straight...
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03/05/2003 08:31:28 PM · #1
I'm brand new to this site and I'm mostly just curious. I've read the rules for challenge submissions. It says absolutely no spot-checking. Is this applicable for hot pixels, dead pixels, etc.? Say you have a few hot pixels that were caused by your camera. Fixing those pixels would result in disqualification?
03/05/2003 08:36:09 PM · #2
Yes. Or I should say that it could lead to a DQ. Only adjustments made to the entire image are allowed.

Message edited by author 2003-03-05 20:38:09.
03/05/2003 08:36:18 PM · #3
That is correct.
No spot editing. Sorry about the hot pixels. :0( But this would in fact result in a DQ to fix them in post processing.

Message edited by author 2003-03-05 20:36:36.
03/05/2003 09:13:11 PM · #4
This is a real sore issue for me. I have a couple hot pixels that are VERY noticable on long exposures.

If I leave them in, my submission would surely get voted down for poor quality.

I feel this is not fair when a mere 2 clicks of the clone tool would fix these.

03/05/2003 09:19:55 PM · #5
What I've always wondered is, how is it enforced? Do the admins have a program that checks for modifications? Or is it simply honor system? Because if you're good enough at spot editing, then your editing should be unnoticable, and therefore undetectable to anyone viewing it.
03/05/2003 09:30:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by Gren:

What I've always wondered is, how is it enforced? Do the admins have a program that checks for modifications? Or is it simply honor system? Because if you're good enough at spot editing, then your editing should be unnoticable, and therefore undetectable to anyone viewing it.

On the voting page is a button whereby any voter can request DQ. The admins then request verification (original plus steps used to create final submission) and will DQ if verification is not forthcoming or inadequate.

As you mention, it can be easy to do, and that's why none is allowed -- if it were, there would be no way to tell when someone had made a "legal vs. illegal" edit.

Hot pixels in your submission should result in at least brownie points if not a higher score, not a deduction. Everyone knows (or should) you couldn't fix the hot pixels or you would have.
03/05/2003 10:02:05 PM · #7
Originally posted by FargoUT:

I'm brand new to this site and I'm mostly just curious. I've read the rules for challenge submissions. It says absolutely no spot-checking. Is this applicable for hot pixels, dead pixels, etc.? Say you have a few hot pixels that were caused by your camera. Fixing those pixels would result in disqualification?


only if you get caught :)

z
03/05/2003 10:05:37 PM · #8
"only if you get caught"

That means we are on the honor system.
03/05/2003 10:13:01 PM · #9
I don't think hot pixels will be score against anyone. My Yellow submission used a 2 second exposure, against a black background, and revealed two hot pixels I didn't even know my camera had.

I got a few sympathetic comments on them, and my score was pretty good. I think folks can look past issues like this, since they know those pixels can't be fixed in this contest.
03/05/2003 11:12:17 PM · #10
Ditto the sentiment here... my "bridges" submission has two hot pixels I didn't previously know about. What a bummer! I agree that it would be wonderful if we were allowed to clone things like that out for the challenges.
03/06/2003 01:32:21 PM · #11
Again.. you allow cloning "just for the hot pixel", and then how do you determine that it was a legal edit? Unfortunately, human nature dictates that alot of people would push the envelope.
03/06/2003 02:28:00 PM · #12
This is just further support for no restrictions on editing :)
03/06/2003 02:54:22 PM · #13
I was in the 'photography not PhotoShopography' camp but the more I think about the issue, the more I think that unrestricted editing should be allowed. Bottom line is it would make the work better. Furthermore, those without great cameras would have more latitude to fix what's unfixable currently. Common practice for me away from this site is to sharpen ground and remove noise in the sky through layering. I can't do that here. If you produce a great image, who cares how you did it? If it's noticeable faked, or if it's bad PhotoShop work, it'll show in the votes...
03/06/2003 02:56:51 PM · #14
Originally posted by jimmythefish:

I was in the 'photography not PhotoShopography' camp but the more I think about the issue, the more I think that unrestricted editing should be allowed. Bottom line is it would make the work better. Furthermore, those without great cameras would have more latitude to fix what's unfixable currently. Common practice for me away from this site is to sharpen ground and remove noise in the sky through layering. I can't do that here. If you produce a great image, who cares how you did it? If it's noticeable faked, or if it's bad PhotoShop work, it'll show in the votes...


Kudos :)
03/06/2003 03:04:32 PM · #15
I personally wonder, how many people will have to speak up in support of no editing rules until something is done. Will something ever be done about it? Are we being listened to about it? Or is it a "this will never change, but don't tell them about it, otherwise they will really start to protest" thing?

I am in full support for not having any editing restrictions.
03/06/2003 03:09:30 PM · #16
From the poll 9/6/02:

Poll Results: "What kind of restrictions would you prefer for challenge submission?"

No restrictions on editing 50
Unlimited use of filters, no spot editing 34
Limited use of filters only, spot editing allowed 56
Limited use of filters, no spot editing (like current rules) 213
More restrictive editing rules 37

390 users participated.
03/06/2003 03:11:43 PM · #17
Originally posted by togtog:

I personally wonder, how many people will have to speak up in support of no editing rules until something is done. Will something ever be done about it? Are we being listened to about it? Or is it a "this will never change, but don't tell them about it, otherwise they will really start to protest" thing?

I am in full support for not having any editing restrictions.


I am sorry but I don't agree with you there. Since I have been submitting photos here to DPC I have learnt so much about the art of photography through critiques on my photos. And that is why most people are here, isn't it? To learn.

If I am able to manipulate my photos using photoshop to make them better then what use are critiques going to serve me?
03/06/2003 03:45:31 PM · #18
Originally posted by kiwiness:

Originally posted by togtog:

I personally wonder, how many people will have to speak up in support of no editing rules until something is done. Will something ever be done about it? Are we being listened to about it? Or is it a "this will never change, but don't tell them about it, otherwise they will really start to protest" thing?

I am in full support for not having any editing restrictions.


I am sorry but I don't agree with you there. Since I have been submitting photos here to DPC I have learnt so much about the art of photography through critiques on my photos. And that is why most people are here, isn't it? To learn.

If I am able to manipulate my photos using photoshop to make them better then what use are critiques going to serve me?


If you look at unrestricted editing as a means to an end, then perhaps you answer your own question. If there is something which you derire to do with your camera, but due to conditions, equipment, time and other factors, you're not able to achieve that desired result, you can go to
PhotoShop to help you achieve what could have been done with the camera in a more ideal situation. The beauty of unrestricted editing is that you still don't have to edit anything if you so choose. Voting on images will still reflect the photographic merit of the image.

Film photographers have always dodged, burned, overlayed exposures and manipulated images in other ways in the darkroom. We want to learn 'photography' but it's never been a simple matter of accepting what comes directly out of the camera. We're already sharpening, altering brightness, contrast and intensity, and even manipulating the colour channels in images. So why not allow dodging, burning and other things which have traditionally been crucial to professional photographers? Ansel Adams manipulated his images quite heavily, and yet nobody would argue that he was practicing anything but photography.

The critiques on manipulated photos will reflect what they've always reflected: the quality of the image!
03/06/2003 03:51:12 PM · #19
Originally posted by jimmythefish:


If it's noticeable faked, or if it's bad PhotoShop work, it'll show in the votes...


i agree. to me, photoshop (i.e., the post processing) is as equally important as the actual photography these days. i look forward to taking the best picture i can, but always know for a fact that it isnt ready until it had been processed, no matter what. it's kinda like putting the icing on the cake, really. the actual cake has to be really good, which takes practice to get it just right, but even so, the fun part--and what makes it enticing is the finishing--the icing, which is necessary for the final presentation.
omg, how domestic was that analogy?!! hehehe, scary!

anyway, i'm starting to look at the editing rules in the same way as i used to see the border rules--if people think it is distracting (or whatever) they can and prolly will vote you down. same for editing--if it is over the top the votes will show. i think that most of the people here have a good handle on what makes a great picture. i for one wouldnt be upset to find some of my favorites had been photoshopped--if it looks good, then cool. i dont worry that allowing less strict editing rules will turn this place into a photoshop free for all--i just think it will enhance the quality of the photos.

let's just say that we decided to do away with the spot editing rule. not changing the rule on filters or anything else, just spot editing. how could that not help our overall photo quality? and really--how would it hurt us? if you go crazy with it--the voters will let you know and your score will probably suffer!
03/06/2003 03:55:54 PM · #20
Has anyone in the past ever suggested having two catagories for each challenge (restricted AND unrestricted)?
03/06/2003 03:55:59 PM · #21
Here's another thought on the subject... if the site is moving toward providing sellable photos, it seems to me that spot editing is almost definitely a necessity. For example, who is going to buy a piece of stock photography that includes hot pixels? I would think that any item being offered for sale should be a very polished product.
03/06/2003 03:58:34 PM · #22
Print files on the up-coming prints service can be spot edited, they dont have to be exactly the same as the challenge entries.
03/06/2003 04:06:09 PM · #23
Originally posted by Konador:

Print files on the up-coming prints service can be spot edited, they dont have to be exactly the same as the challenge entries.


This is a perfect example... why can't our challenge entries be the same as what we would print?
03/06/2003 04:17:01 PM · #24
Because the VAST majority of users want to keep it the way it is. Did none of you bother to rtead the results of the poll the General put up?

There seems to be some belief here that once you've entered a challenge here your entry can never be changed. That's bizarre! Once you have entered it here -- without spot-editing -- you can do to your image whatever you want for sale to the public or as stock or whatever. The two events are completely uncconnected.

Therefore, the majority here who want to keep the restricted rules are satisfied, and those who want to change their images for other uses are equally satisfied.

Any other solution imposes the will of the MINORITY (see poll) over the MAJORITY.

03/06/2003 04:19:25 PM · #25
Originally posted by Jak:

Because the VAST majority of users want to keep it the way it is. Did none of you bother to rtead the results of the poll the General put up?

There seems to be some belief here that once you've entered a challenge here your entry can never be changed. That's bizarre! Once you have entered it here -- without spot-editing -- you can do to your image whatever you want for sale to the public or as stock or whatever. The two events are completely uncconnected.

Therefore, the majority here who want to keep the restricted rules are satisfied, and those who want to change their images for other uses are equally satisfied.

Any other solution imposes the will of the MINORITY (see poll) over the MAJORITY.


That poll is flawed. I think the poll should be re run and only photographers get to vote in it.
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