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11/19/2004 03:28:30 AM · #101 |
Personally, I always welcome messages and comments. I find it a bit silly to think that in a challenge with 300 votes (+/-) to think that someone PMs me (or anyone) to try and change my vote based on a comment.
To think it through, if I changed a "1" (which I give out extremely rarely, once ever 2 or 3 challenges) to a "10" (which I may give out 2-6 per challenge) based on someone's PM, the voice of all the other voters will overwhelm that small ripple.
In six months here, I have recieved only courteous PMs about my comments. How could it be offensive for someone to say "Thanks for your kind & helpful comment about the lighting on my books photo." I mean, how can that be interpreted as trying to change the score or how would the lack of being anonymous change the vote?
It won't.
It is much more valid to see who is commenting. The system here is one of imput and feedback and there is the need to be able to respond if need be via PMs.
Well, that is my two bits. Sorry to rehash some of the thoughts that have already been stated. |
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11/19/2004 03:34:06 AM · #102 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by kyebosh:
We certainly do not have complete free speech. |
I'm sorry, that statement is a direct violation of the Patriot Act. Please edit your post. |
haha thats pretty good.
I do think though that comments should be anonymous until voting is over. It eliminates problems without removing anything really valuable.
Message edited by author 2004-11-19 03:37:59. |
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11/19/2004 03:36:25 AM · #103 |
Originally posted by cbeller:
Originally posted by graphicfunk:
...Each of us reach a level of satisfaction with our observation powers or sheer lack of them and we do not enjoy being corrected. Many of us search to improve, but some of us remain retards and what we perceive whether right or wrong is defended... |
LOL. How true this statement is. |
Indeed this is quite true; in most human environments. |
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11/19/2004 04:29:18 AM · #104 |
Originally posted by theodor38:
why do people make big deals out of small things:) |
"The system" doesn't allow very many of us to be in charge of any big things. |
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11/19/2004 05:13:07 AM · #105 |
As stated earlier by myself I prefer a system where the voting is anonymous as is the case with most art/photography competitions and I believe it to be the intention of this site. I have looked very hard into this issue and I see it as the one failing in this otherwise excellently managed site.
My issue is the fact that the competitions are run anonymously but the opportunity to compromise the system is available via private email once someone knows that you have left a comment. You may say so what who cares, well I think this undermines the whole integrity of the site and as has been seen in the past and human nature being human nature people will abuse the system and cheat. Why not close this avenue off so people don’t have the opportunity?
I can come up with a list of positive reasons why we should keep comments anonymous until after voting, can anyone come up with a list of positive reasons why we should keep the system in place as we have now.
I always look at all sides of arguments open mindedly and welcome anyone to convince me that the system we have now is to the greater benefit to the community as a whole.
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11/19/2004 05:25:06 AM · #106 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
As stated earlier by myself I prefer a system where the voting is anonymous as is the case with most art/photography competitions and I believe it to be the intention of this site. I have looked very hard into this issue and I see it as the one failing in this otherwise excellently managed site.
My issue is the fact that the competitions are run anonymously but the opportunity to compromise the system is available via private email once someone knows that you have left a comment. You may say so what who cares, well I think this undermines the whole integrity of the site and as has been seen in the past and human nature being human nature people will abuse the system and cheat. Why not close this avenue off so people don’t have the opportunity?
I can come up with a list of positive reasons why we should keep comments anonymous until after voting, can anyone come up with a list of positive reasons why we should keep the system in place as we have now.
I always look at all sides of arguments open mindedly and welcome anyone to convince me that the system we have now is to the greater benefit to the community as a whole. |
Well, I haven't thought about it a whole lot, but there is one positive I can come up with for having commenting remain non-anonymous.
The potential for abuse would be pretty high. If commenting were anonymous during the challenge, and human nature being what it is, I think that you would get a good number of comments that are meant purely as inflammatory remarks. These people could then leave the comments up until *just* before voting ended, and then remove them, thus not being "found out" at the end of voting.
The only way to deal with these people would be to put in individual requests to the SC, while the challenge is running, which would put a great deal of workload on them that they don't really need.
I think that having non-anonymous comments keeps these inflammatory remarks to a minimum, since the people know immediately who says them, and can react swifter than trying to hunt them down.
Am I making any sense?
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11/19/2004 05:29:54 AM · #107 |
Yes this makes good sense but easily rectified by not allowing the comment to be edited or removed.
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11/19/2004 05:32:46 AM · #108 |
If people want to view who's entered what for many people you can simply look at their personal site in galleries or daily photo projects.
I really don't understand the stress, naturally I would like to win ribbons and push my average vote up as high as I can, BUT those things are secondary to learning more and hopefully making a few friends along the way.
Darren |
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11/19/2004 05:36:53 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by colda:
If people want to view who's entered what for many people you can simply look at their personal site in galleries or daily photo projects.
I really don't understand the stress, naturally I would like to win ribbons and push my average vote up as high as I can, BUT those things are secondary to learning more and hopefully making a few friends along the way.
Darren |
This is quite true but we do have a very small number of people on this site that do try and cheat and are being caught out. |
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11/19/2004 06:04:51 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
Yes this makes good sense but easily rectified by not allowing the comment to be edited or removed. |
This is true. I think it would come down to what could be the easiest in terms of coding as well. Site changes that require any physical change are well known to take a good deal of time.
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11/19/2004 06:10:00 AM · #111 |
The best reason for not having anonymous comments is the obvious one - we can see who has posted the comment - we can then see their portfolio, and make a judgement as to their level of experience, expertise etc. This strongly afffects how we understand those comments.
Of course, that could wait until after the challenge, but i think it would be a real shame. Some of the more interesting dialogues I've had on the site have come from reaction to comments, and I think that requires the immediacy to be effective.
Anonymity would also negate the requirement to be polite and considered in commenting - I am almost always highly critical of photos that I comment on, and yet very very rarely do I receive messages back at all, and almost always they are thankyou messages.
Anonymity would prevent that also - as some who has commented, when i've been around, a fair bit (and certainly more than many of the folks I see here complaining about non-anonymous comments) I would miss that possibility enormously.
I suppose one could always just go and comment on shots after the challenge, also.
Making comments anonymous just for the voting period would be pointless. As soon as the scores go up everyone would be able to see all the commenters and the slew of PM's would just be postponed.
e |
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11/19/2004 06:12:13 AM · #112 |
Originally posted by e301:
The best reason for not having anonymous comments is the obvious one - we can see who has posted the comment - we can then see their portfolio, and make a judgement as to their level of experience, expertise etc. This strongly afffects how we understand those comments.
Of course, that could wait until after the challenge, but i think it would be a real shame. Some of the more interesting dialogues I've had on the site have come from reaction to comments, and I think that requires the immediacy to be effective.
Anonymity would also negate the requirement to be polite and considered in commenting - I am almost always highly critical of photos that I comment on, and yet very very rarely do I receive messages back at all, and almost always they are thankyou messages.
Anonymity would prevent that also - as some who has commented, when i've been around, a fair bit (and certainly more than many of the folks I see here complaining about non-anonymous comments) I would miss that possibility enormously.
I suppose one could always just go and comment on shots after the challenge, also.
Making comments anonymous just for the voting period would be pointless. As soon as the scores go up everyone would be able to see all the commenters and the slew of PM's would just be postponed.
e |
Very good points all of them. Thank you.
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11/19/2004 06:19:17 AM · #113 |
FYI, when DPC originally started, all comments were anonymous. However, after a while, the number of "troll" comments was such that it was decided to remove the anonymity, which has reduced the number of trolls to virtually zero. IMO, troll comments have a much greater negative effect compared to the small percentage of PM sent to commenters, and thus we should not go back to anonymous comments...
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11/19/2004 06:22:33 AM · #114 |
I have to say, if comments became anonymous then I would sign my comments (until a point where I'm forced to stop by the SC).
Sorry if this is controversial but I think many others will feel the same way, so someone should say it. |
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11/19/2004 06:43:48 AM · #115 |
"I quite like to recieve messages from comments that I make, and in the case of misunderstandings on my part (due to my ignorance of a subject) then I am not ashamed to say that I return to amend the score."
On the surface this approach seems inofensive and even constructive-- correcting misunderstandings. But give it a bit more thought. Think about trying to keep the playing field level for all. If you are willing to amend your score in response to an explanation received from an entrant whose photo you have commented upon you are offering that entrant something that all the other (the ones you didn't comment on, likely the vast majority) entrants don't get. Unless you are going to offer the opportunity to clear up misunderstandings to all the entrants, it's fairer to just let the entry (image with title) stand on it's own regardless of the risk of it's being misunderstood.
I think waiting until after voting to reply to comments is a small sacriface to ask when balanced against the benefit of enhancing the "level playing field" we share.
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11/19/2004 06:55:49 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
"I quite like to recieve messages from comments that I make, and in the case of misunderstandings on my part (due to my ignorance of a subject) then I am not ashamed to say that I return to amend the score."
On the surface this approach seems inofensive and even constructive-- correcting misunderstandings. But give it a bit more thought. Think about trying to keep the playing field level for all. If you are willing to amend your score in response to an explanation received from an entrant whose photo you have commented upon you are offering that entrant something that all the other (the ones you didn't comment on, likely the vast majority) entrants don't get. Unless you are going to offer the opportunity to clear up misunderstandings to all the entrants, it's fairer to just let the entry (image with title) stand on it's own regardless of the risk of it's being misunderstood.
I think waiting until after voting to reply to comments is a small sacriface to ask when balanced against the benefit of enhancing the "level playing field" we share. |
Case in point
If you look at my comment I did not understand what the object was, I actually thought that it was a mistaken entry where an attempt to spot edit a ball into the pic was made (it was early in the morning at the time). I have never seen such a tee before, and due to my ignorance I marked it down (a 4 I believe), after an explaination was given I realised MY error and ammended the score to a deserved 7.
Clearly this is an image that deserves it's top ten placement, and I'm happy to have been given the opportunity to correct my error.
In the case where I don't get an image and it's subliminal message then that's the fault of the image itself and I agree with your sentiments.
I do not alter scores where a reply to my comment is along the lines of 'but it's supposed to be out of focus' etc.
Darren
edit:typo
Message edited by author 2004-11-19 07:20:56. |
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11/19/2004 06:56:56 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by e301:
The best reason for not having anonymous comments is the obvious one - we can see who has posted the comment - we can then see their portfolio, and make a judgement as to their level of experience, expertise etc. This strongly afffects how we understand those comments.
Of course, that could wait until after the challenge, but i think it would be a real shame. Some of the more interesting dialogues I've had on the site have come from reaction to comments, and I think that requires the immediacy to be effective.
Anonymity would also negate the requirement to be polite and considered in commenting - I am almost always highly critical of photos that I comment on, and yet very very rarely do I receive messages back at all, and almost always they are thankyou messages.
Anonymity would prevent that also - as some who has commented, when i've been around, a fair bit (and certainly more than many of the folks I see here complaining about non-anonymous comments) I would miss that possibility enormously.
I suppose one could always just go and comment on shots after the challenge, also.
Making comments anonymous just for the voting period would be pointless. As soon as the scores go up everyone would be able to see all the commenters and the slew of PM's would just be postponed.
e |
Hi Ed ,
You have come with some interesting points although not overly convincing but worthy of a more detail look.
I will try and summarize you paragraphs so we can all look at the pros and cons.
- First paragraph e but that can all happen after the voting so not really a positive.
- The focus of the second challenge is the immediacy which is a positive
- The third same applies here as the first paragraph that can happen after voting so not really a positive.
- And the fourth same applies here as the first paragraph that can happen after voting so not really a positive.
- And the fifth is your quote “ I suppose one could always just go and comment on shots after the challenge, also.”
- And the sixth is a good point that you make as it would delay the slew of PM till after the challenge. This is good because that is what I want to see, after the challenge not during.
This thread started with someone going to give everyone a 1 if he had abusive PM during the challenge. People are being influenced one way or another on how they vote because of PM during the challenge. Sometimes stupid dumb people or even emotive intelligent people or plain crazy people and not to mention your everyday joe will be influenced and perhaps even change the vote they were going to give. But that simple act of changing your vote after being influenced is where all the equity and fairness in the competition stops.
So I don’t know if the sixth is positive but please lets all look into this a bit further.
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11/19/2004 07:03:25 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by Manic:
FYI, when DPC originally started, all comments were anonymous. However, after a while, the number of "troll" comments was such that it was decided to remove the anonymity, which has reduced the number of trolls to virtually zero. IMO, troll comments have a much greater negative effect compared to the small percentage of PM sent to commenters, and thus we should not go back to anonymous comments... |
He Manic
I don't want to see complete anonymity i just want to see it postponed till after the voting.
Imagine the excitement when you go check your score after the close and you then could also put names to the comments you got. This would add another element to the site. |
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11/19/2004 07:09:39 AM · #119 |
OK, time to throw some stats into the mix :o)
The ratio of voters to commenters is anything between 20:1 and 100:1 for most images in most challenges. The means that commenters make up somewhere between 1% and 5% of the overall score. Of these commenters, if they are all PM'd by the photog, maybe only half will go back and adjust their score (I'm being generous here). This effectively means that photogs who PM users will get - at best - an increased vote from 2.5% of the voters. I'm going to say that these voters on average will increase their vote by 3 (which again is generous), which would lead to a total score increase of (by my reckoning) about 0.01. Is this tiny fraction really worth worrying about?
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11/19/2004 07:10:51 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by keegbow:
I don't want to see complete anonymity i just want to see it postponed till after the voting.
Imagine the excitement when you go check your score after the close and you then could also put names to the comments you got. This would add another element to the site. |
This was exactly the system we used to have, sorry if I didn't convey this fully. We still had problems with trolls, since they could post with impunity for the entire week, and created a lot of bad feeling on the forums before we could find out who it was...
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11/19/2004 07:19:11 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Originally posted by keegbow:
I don't want to see complete anonymity i just want to see it postponed till after the voting.
Imagine the excitement when you go check your score after the close and you then could also put names to the comments you got. This would add another element to the site. |
This was exactly the system we used to have, sorry if I didn't convey this fully. We still had problems with trolls, since they could post with impunity for the entire week, and created a lot of bad feeling on the forums before we could find out who it was... |
... or by which point they were long gone. Talk about an incentive to create phony accounts!
Message edited by author 2004-11-19 07:20:46. |
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11/19/2004 07:20:32 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by colda:
Case in point
If you look at my comment I did not understand what the object was, I actually thought that it was a mistaken entry where an attempt to spot edit a ball into the pic was made (it was early in the morning at the time). I have never seen such a tee before, and due to my ignorance I marked it down (a 4 I believe), after an explaination was given I realised MY error and ammended the score to a deserved 7.
Clearly this is an image that deserves it's top ten placement, and I;m happy to have been given the opportunity to corrent my error.
In the case where I don't get an image and it's subliminal message then that's the fault of the image itself and I agree with your sentiments.
I do not alter scores where a reply to my comment is along the lines of 'but it's supposed to be out of focus' etc.
Darren
edit:typo |
If the photographer put up an entry that was so easily misunderstood he should pay the price, not all the others who didn't receive a comment from you. How many other entries where there in that same challenge that were in a similiar situation (misunderstood) that you did not comment on? You can't answer that can you.
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11/19/2004 07:21:08 AM · #123 |
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11/19/2004 07:27:06 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by Manic:
Originally posted by keegbow:
I don't want to see complete anonymity i just want to see it postponed till after the voting.
Imagine the excitement when you go check your score after the close and you then could also put names to the comments you got. This would add another element to the site. |
This was exactly the system we used to have, sorry if I didn't convey this fully. We still had problems with trolls, since they could post with impunity for the entire week, and created a lot of bad feeling on the forums before we could find out who it was... |
As in you earlier post I agree the number would be very low but it still gives an unfair advantage. And I agree with the above the immediacy of the comments are a distinct positive.
I will give an analogy that keeps popping into my mind. You have entered a shot into a local camera club contest with a popular vote by the public to decide a winner.
You go on the day and when you get there you see another contestant standing next to his image telling everyone it’s virtues. I think I would feel a bit cheated that’s the way I sometimes see it could happen here.
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11/19/2004 07:28:54 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by colda:
Case in point
If you look at my comment I did not understand what the object was, I actually thought that it was a mistaken entry where an attempt to spot edit a ball into the pic was made (it was early in the morning at the time). I have never seen such a tee before, and due to my ignorance I marked it down (a 4 I believe), after an explaination was given I realised MY error and ammended the score to a deserved 7.
Clearly this is an image that deserves it's top ten placement, and I;m happy to have been given the opportunity to corrent my error.
In the case where I don't get an image and it's subliminal message then that's the fault of the image itself and I agree with your sentiments.
I do not alter scores where a reply to my comment is along the lines of 'but it's supposed to be out of focus' etc.
Darren
edit:typo |
If the photographer put up an entry that was so easily misunderstood he should pay the price, not all the others who didn't receive a comment from you. How many other entries where there in that same challenge that were in a similiar situation (misunderstood) that you did not comment on? You can't answer that can you. |
I suppose it comes down to where to draw the line between what's a major element that is questionable (as in this case) or where a message that did not come accross.
If there is something obvious that I don't get (as in this case) then I'll comment, in the case where it's not obvious then naturally I'll not comment on it as I have not seen it, but as I've not seen it it does not influence my perception of the photo. In the example I quoted I marked it down due to an specific element, and corrected my score according when I knew what it was.
The failing in this situation is not my inability to comment on every image, read every explaination and vote accordingly, but rather what would have happened if a reply was not given and the photo being unfairly marked down.
There is no perfect solution, but I'm happy that I'm going about it what I deem to be an acceptable way.
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