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11/18/2004 04:56:56 PM · #1
I am not sure what the fix would be, but I really think we have some recent low scoring issues that should be addressed if possible. I would be curious to know if the overall average score is decreasing.

I will use my Macro score as an example:
On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

My recent macro score was 5.265 (below average), but my placement was 160/529 and 70%. So, from this we establish that at least 370 out of 529 entries were below average. I didn't think my photo was below average quality, and I am pretty certain not all of the 370 from my point down were below average quality either.

This is not really about my photo, but about the low scoring in general, but here was my photo:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/274/thumb/119916.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/274/thumb/119916.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
11/18/2004 05:02:47 PM · #2
5.5 is the average of the numbers from 1 - 10 inclusive, it is not the average of the votes actually cast. In the recent Macro challenge the actual average of votes cast was 4.923 and the median score was 4.775. Some challenges run hot, some cool. This one ran cool.
11/18/2004 05:03:27 PM · #3
I'm starting to learn to care less about the score and more about what you learn from it. The better scores will come in time just from what you learn from the experience. I also think comments are much more important than scores and I wish I got more of them. And I admit I am guilty of not giving enough but I try to give more and more as I go...

Originally posted by dartompkins:

I am not sure what the fix would be, but I really think we have some recent low scoring issues that should be addressed if possible. I would be curious to know if the overall average score is decreasing.

I will use my Macro score as an example:
On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

My recent macro score was 5.265 (below average), but my placement was 160/529 and 70%. So, from this we establish that at least 370 out of 529 entries were below average. I didn't think my photo was below average quality, and I am pretty certain not all of the 370 from my point down were below average quality either.

This is not really about my photo, but about the low scoring in general, but here was my photo:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/274/thumb/119916.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/274/thumb/119916.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
11/18/2004 05:04:55 PM · #4
Originally posted by dartompkins:

On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

Problem is, there is no 5.5 button. Personally I treat 5 as an average, both in the votes I give and those I recieve. If there was a 5.5 button I would use it!

Originally posted by dartompkins:

My recent macro score was 5.265 (below average), but my placement was 160/529 and 70%. So, from this we establish that at least 370 out of 529 entries were below average.

The photo at the half way mark, 265th, scored 4.947. Pretty damn close to 5.

I think if you just treat the votes you receive as being on a scale where 5 is the average things will look a lot more balanced ... and your 5.265 is now a decent amount above average : )
11/18/2004 05:21:24 PM · #5
Originally posted by dartompkins:

I am not sure what the fix would be, but I really think we have some recent low scoring issues that should be addressed if possible. I would be curious to know if the overall average score is decreasing.

I will use my Macro score as an example:
On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

My recent macro score was 5.265 (below average), but my placement was 160/529 and 70%. So, from this we establish that at least 370 out of 529 entries were below average. I didn't think my photo was below average quality, and I am pretty certain not all of the 370 from my point down were below average quality either.

...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


By your own voting patterns it would seem that you believe the average photo should be rated less than a 5.5 or even a 5. Your average vote is only 4.6540. So why do you think we have some recent low scoring issues that need to be addressed?
11/18/2004 05:35:31 PM · #6
Beats me... I'm a tight-fisted voter and gave this one a 9!
11/18/2004 05:45:33 PM · #7
Originally posted by techtraum:

Originally posted by dartompkins:

I am not sure what the fix would be, but I really think we have some recent low scoring issues that should be addressed if possible. I would be curious to know if the overall average score is decreasing.

I will use my Macro score as an example:
On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

My recent macro score was 5.265 (below average), but my placement was 160/529 and 70%. So, from this we establish that at least 370 out of 529 entries were below average. I didn't think my photo was below average quality, and I am pretty certain not all of the 370 from my point down were below average quality either.

...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


By your own voting patterns it would seem that you believe the average photo should be rated less than a 5.5 or even a 5. Your average vote is only 4.6540. So why do you think we have some recent low scoring issues that need to be addressed?


I realize my average is low. I started out voting too low, and there have been a couple of challenges that I was overall unimpressed with, but in recent challenges I have been striving to give the "Average" photo a 6 instead of a 5 which I feel is too low. This is one of the reasons I pointed this out.
11/18/2004 08:48:19 PM · #8
Originally posted by dartompkins:

On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


I don't agree with 5.5 being average (I prefer 5 as average and so I don't need an extra button). But the rest of what you said I agree with. I am totally shocked that 106 out of 332 votes on your picture determined that it was just an "average" picture. And worse ... that 53 of them thought it was sub-par. (I would ignore the 3 ones, 12 twos and 27 threes ... those people didn't even look at your picture!)

Maybe we're all just playing to different scales...

For me, a 5 is a mere snapshot. An average photo that someone off the street could take with no extra thought or care to the process.

To get below 5, you've got to either not meet the challenge, or blow the picture in some way (bad focus, exposure, really poor composition, etc).

To get above 5, you've got to show that you paid attention to details, maybe tried something different, excelled in some way that the average shooter would have missed.

This picture of yours... I just put it in my favorites!

So yes... I think we're seeing a lot of low votes. Not so much that the votes are below average. But that they are being placed on images that are obviously above average!

11/18/2004 09:22:15 PM · #9
Originally posted by dwterry:

Originally posted by dartompkins:

On a scale of 1 through 10, 5.5 is average.

...

Anyone have any thoughts on this?


I don't agree with 5.5 being average (I prefer 5 as average and so I don't need an extra button). But the rest of what you said I agree with. I am totally shocked that 106 out of 332 votes on your picture determined that it was just an "average" picture. And worse ... that 53 of them thought it was sub-par. (I would ignore the 3 ones, 12 twos and 27 threes ... those people didn't even look at your picture!)

Maybe we're all just playing to different scales...

For me, a 5 is a mere snapshot. An average photo that someone off the street could take with no extra thought or care to the process.

To get below 5, you've got to either not meet the challenge, or blow the picture in some way (bad focus, exposure, really poor composition, etc).

To get above 5, you've got to show that you paid attention to details, maybe tried something different, excelled in some way that the average shooter would have missed.

This picture of yours... I just put it in my favorites!

So yes... I think we're seeing a lot of low votes. Not so much that the votes are below average. But that they are being placed on images that are obviously above average!


Thank you very much for your kind comments. I tried very hard to make that shot work, and thought I had a good chance at the upper end of the spectrum. I agree with your scale and have been voting that way with the exception that I am trying to move my average to 6 instead of 5. It is, however, hard to get your brain around that and stick to it when 7s are generally winners.

Favorites always make me smile. Thanks for appreciating.

By the way I like your fireworks and airplane shots.
11/18/2004 09:22:47 PM · #10
Originally posted by lbWhaples:

Beats me... I'm a tight-fisted voter and gave this one a 9!


Thanks!
11/18/2004 09:29:03 PM · #11
You have to change your perception of what average is. When the final distribution of votes is totaled and analyzed by the site software, the site assigns a percentile rank to each photo, based on the total vote distribution. Your photo was at the 70th %ile, which is well into the upper half of the average range (assuming a normal distribution of votes - which is usually not precisely the case). For a normal, bell-shaped distribution, anything between roughly the 16th and 84th %iles could be considered average since 2/3 of the photos fell within this range.
11/18/2004 09:37:56 PM · #12
Originally posted by strangeghost:

You have to change your perception of what average is. When the final distribution of votes is totaled and analyzed by the site software, the site assigns a percentile rank to each photo, based on the total vote distribution. Your photo was at the 70th %ile, which is well into the upper half of the average range (assuming a normal distribution of votes - which is usually not precisely the case). For a normal, bell-shaped distribution, anything between roughly the 16th and 84th %iles could be considered average since 2/3 of the photos fell within this range.


That makes sense! Thanks for the new perspective.
11/18/2004 10:12:33 PM · #13
Originally posted by dartompkins:


That makes sense! Thanks for the new perspective.

You're welcome!

The other thing that I failed to say is that percentile is simply another way of saying exactly where your picture falls in the distribution. 70th %ile is another way of saying your photo scored higher than 70% of the entries, 30% scored higher than you. Percentile is often confused with percent. The two are very different. Percent is a simple measure of quantity (e.g., 50% is half of something). Percentile is the value of a variable, e.g., how high or low it is within a distribution.
11/18/2004 10:23:22 PM · #14
As long as you let people vote freely, you're always going to have low voting I think. Even some of the truly great photos that have won ribbons here and are easily deserving of an 7 to 10 by almost anyone's standards...there are always those people that chose to vote 1's, 2's and 3's for the same photo everyone else loved.

The other thing that happens is I think many people enter hoping to see their photo do well. Maybe not ribbon, but get an average above 6 or more. When the votes start coming in on their photo and their average is much lower than they had hoped for....I think many of them are hard-pressed to start doling out high scores to other people. It's not necessarily spite, but human nature I guess.

I'm amazed to see some of the votes sometimes. Granted, most people on here are amateurs and part-timers just like myself, and many of the photos DO deserve to be voted an average 5, but to continue my ramble I really think people do start voting low once the voting starts and they don't do as well as they hoped. Everyone starts off high, and as the days go on scores tend to keep dropping. Why is that? Frustration maybe.

So far in this challenge I've got 10 positive comments from people that voted my picture high. I've not received ONE comment from some of the people that obviously gave it a 3 or lower and knocked the score down a lot. I'd much more appreciate some of those comments to find out what I did so terribly wrong.

11/24/2004 02:20:10 AM · #15
As a new member, I believe that there probably should be some sort of guideline for the voting. Not rules, just suggestions. It's confusing to figure out how to rate the photos when you're starting out. I'm starting to get in somewhat of a groove in my voting and it corresponds to two of the comments here.

First and foremost, did the picture meet the topic?

If it did not then that will cost 1,2 or 3 points off the score. If it did meet the topic and you have an in focus picture then you get at least a 5. I'll move up and down from there.

My Time Passing image has an avg. of 4.5 right now. I'm a bit confused because 4.5 indicates it is a slightly bad photo. It certainly met the topic goal and I will be the first to admit that is a completely average photo. It's not repulsive, it's semi interesting but certainly not flashy. I would have expected an avg. score on that photo of about 5.5 with the main scores being 5 and 6's. Apparently I'm getting a fair number of 3's. That doesn't seem right. Just my 2 cents...
11/24/2004 02:25:08 AM · #16
You are confusing a numerical average (5.5 in this case) with a voted average. A lot of people have different standards for their voting and different scales. The overall average for b&w II was 5.1, which is lower than 5.5. Statistically, the average seems to hover right around 5 overall. So, yours may be slightly below average, but is still fairly close.
11/24/2004 02:38:19 AM · #17
OK, where's Laurie?
She would be having fits with this one...
:)
11/24/2004 02:48:27 AM · #18
From experience with statistics while writing my Masters thesis, I learned you can slice and dice statistics any which way you please; however, most of the photos on this site are NOT at the bad end of the spectrum. Whatever the reason, it certainly is not motivating to receive scores that rank your work at a 1, 2, or 3.

I suggested a voting section in the guide someone was suggesting for newbies. I mentioned it should address not only technical issues but also artistic issues: composition, color, light and shadow, motif, focal point, symbolism etc... so that new members know what to look for. I was shot down with the explanation that it would be too overwhelming or complicated for newbies. Excuse me, but aren't they voting? Just what are they using as a guide when they vote? Oh well, its not my site.
11/24/2004 02:56:56 AM · #19
It is suggested in the guidelines that a voter leave a comment if they are voting 3 or less. perhaps ithe site could be modified to enforce that...
11/24/2004 03:13:17 AM · #20
Originally posted by bestagents:

It is suggested in the guidelines that a voter leave a comment if they are voting 3 or less. perhaps ithe site could be modified to enforce that...

It can't ... we've discussed the pros and cons and various methods "quite a bit" over the last couple of years. : )

I think the best thing is to accept that we will never always vote by the same scale, since photos mean different things to each of us and we each see differently. I only ask that people vote consistently by whatever criteria/method they choose.
11/24/2004 03:17:26 AM · #21
Thanks for starting this thread, Darlene, since this is something I've wondered about as well. The ultimate answer, as several people pointed out, is that percentile is all that really matters since it reflects how voters rated your photo compared to all the others in any given challenge.

But it is true that 5.5 is the numerical average of a 1-10 scale, and knowing that has made my voting much easier. After I take all of a photo's good and bad points into consideration, I ask myself whether or not I think the photo is above or below average overall. If it's above average, it gets a 6 or better. If it's below average, it gets a 5 or lower. This makes rating photos so much easier for me.
11/24/2004 03:25:32 AM · #22
I agree with your comment about consistency, GeneralE.
Sadly, there is a perception that to score others low makes one somehow superior. I see it in teaching all the time. Poor teachers give harsh grades to cover for their own insecurities. It makes them feel some sort of pathetic power, or perhaps they don't think others see through their transparent charade and hollow pretense.

If a person votes true to a set of guidelines, and remains consistent, then that is probably the best a site like this can be expected to do.
11/24/2004 03:28:33 AM · #23
Philip,
Brilliant advice. If everyone used your common sense guide to voting, all would be well and we would not have to pass this way again. Your voting method would be the perfect advice to any newbie.
11/24/2004 03:33:41 AM · #24
//dpchallenge.com/image.php?IMAGE_ID=121269

I got 130th place :/ Some of my fav. photos were BELOW me, I was shocked

I got 4 1's 9 2's and 13 3's...I admit I was a little disapointed...but it was a 5-6 photo and scored that way!

No offence to the winners, there were some great photos but I don't think alot of the fokus was on the shadows and thought that went into the picture, alot of "cute" snapshots in the top 30 scored very high and alot of GREAT photos with shadows and contrast that I voted high on that scored very very low...! congrats ya'll
11/24/2004 05:08:01 AM · #25
Assuming that your only concern is a low numerical average, how about adjusting the voting on a curve? Adjust the scores so that the highest score comes out to 10 and the lowest would be adjusted upwards along with the average. This will make people feel better about themselves and prevent a common occurrence that disturbs me... non-ribboned photos having a higher score than blue ribbon photos in a photog's profile. I don't care which photo has the higher numerical value so much as which ones did the best in each challenge.

-Dan

Message edited by author 2004-11-24 05:08:20.
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