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05/08/2023 10:01:44 AM · #1 |
So I had an art show yesterday, and it's my first interaction with an AI issue.
Someone was looking at one of my squirrel pictures, and thought it was nice, but then pulled out her phone and showed me one she loved.
It was 6 squirrels all crowded around a perfect opening in a tree, all bunched up adorably together peeking out through that opening.
When you looked at the faces, the textures, etc., it was obviously AI or possibly someone's painting. But she thought it was real.
I don't know that wildlife photography will be able to compete with AI. Ours is luck and skill, but the subject is still mostly luck in getting the positioning, lighting, etc. With AI you can create perfection and circumstances that I'd mostly never be able to find in the wild. That was a worry when people began photoshopping - but you still needed to get the photos with which to work. Now you don't even need to do that. But I still feel it's not my work. So I'm interested in playing with AI to get ideas - since I'm not very good at that. But I still want to go out and create it myself. But I'm afraid it can never be as good. |
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05/08/2023 11:03:55 AM · #2 |
Was it something like this?
I used your description and added "amazing details, photo realistic, depth of details, 8k"
Apparently Midjourney has a problem with basic arithmetic ;)
Not sure how to help you with sales, maybe augment your real photos with some AI and see what will be the reaction, maybe both will sell? For example, create contrasting pairs of real and unreal.
It is not easy at all to get exactly what you want from Midjourney, I would say it is still very difficult to create perfection, especially for complex scenes.
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05/08/2023 11:09:25 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
When you looked at the faces, the textures, etc., it was obviously AI or possibly someone's painting.
But she thought it was real. |
The old saying goes......"You can't fix stupid. You also cannot argue with it.
*MAYBE* over time, people will learn to look for the signs and yeah, it will get better to the point where it will be exceedingly difficult to tell if it's an AI offering or not.
It reminds me of the early days with digital when we as photographers worried about monitor calibration without it ever occurring to us that people with crappy, uncalibrated computers will be looking at our stuff.
Once that reality set in, we pretty much learned to make an image as we saw fit and hope that the majority of viewers saw it properly.
AI is here, it's gaining momentum, and prolly not going away so I'm just gonna do what I do and if someone who is so unobservant, or accepting, that they prefer an AI image over mine, oh well.
I figure a lot of the people who AI will woo away are the same people who would buy black velvet "Poker Playing Dogs".
I'm just going with that as a genre in which I simply cannot compete. LOL!
Just my $0.02 USD, YMMV....
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05/08/2023 01:33:46 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by vawendy:
When you looked at the faces, the textures, etc., it was obviously AI or possibly someone's painting.
But she thought it was real. |
The old saying goes......"You can't fix stupid. You also cannot argue with it.
*MAYBE* over time, people will learn to look for the signs and yeah, it will get better to the point where it will be exceedingly difficult to tell if it's an AI offering or not.
It reminds me of the early days with digital when we as photographers worried about monitor calibration without it ever occurring to us that people with crappy, uncalibrated computers will be looking at our stuff.
Once that reality set in, we pretty much learned to make an image as we saw fit and hope that the majority of viewers saw it properly.
AI is here, it's gaining momentum, and prolly not going away so I'm just gonna do what I do and if someone who is so unobservant, or accepting, that they prefer an AI image over mine, oh well.
I figure a lot of the people who AI will woo away are the same people who would buy black velvet "Poker Playing Dogs".
I'm just going with that as a genre in which I simply cannot compete. LOL!
Just my $0.02 USD, YMMV.... |
I agree - there will be purists that would not buy an AI image and many that will; some will realize they can simply input descriptors in to a program and create their own 'art' and that will have meaning for them.
Personally I don't hang anything on my walls that I don't have a connection to. Either a personal memory or an appreciation for someone's talent. AI has neither of those so I wouldn't hang someone's coding on my wall but I do think they are fun to look at and applaud the technology. I am still processing how I feel about copyright infringement. Just like with the Drake AI song I am saddened that the awe of human talent is being removed, it feels hollow to have a program generating art Drake Replaced by AI |
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05/08/2023 01:45:18 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...they can simply input descriptors in to a program... |
From my experience so far this is not simple. |
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05/08/2023 02:09:03 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...they can simply input descriptors in to a program... |
From my experience so far this is not simple. |
It's just a matter of time. Commercial level user-generated AI is 30 seconds old. |
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05/08/2023 02:31:19 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...they can simply input descriptors in to a program... |
From my experience so far this is not simple. |
It's just a matter of time. Commercial level user-generated AI is 30 seconds old. |
I am hoping that ChatGPT (or equivalent) will be incorporated into Midjourney soon, the current reliance on trying out prompts wastes a lot of time and is very frustrating. |
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05/08/2023 03:16:07 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by tanguera:
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...they can simply input descriptors in to a program... |
From my experience so far this is not simple. |
It's just a matter of time. Commercial level user-generated AI is 30 seconds old. |
I am hoping that ChatGPT (or equivalent) will be incorporated into Midjourney soon, the current reliance on trying out prompts wastes a lot of time and is very frustrating. |
Why not ask chatgpt to generate your prompt and copy and paste? |
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05/08/2023 03:36:06 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...
I am hoping that ChatGPT (or equivalent) will be incorporated into Midjourney soon, the current reliance on trying out prompts wastes a lot of time and is very frustrating.
Why not ask chatgpt to generate your prompt and copy and paste? |
ChatGPT can generate many alternative descriptions to put into Midjourney, but that only gives you more different images to look at, you still don't know which description will generate an image closest to what you wanted. ChatGPT would need to be closely integrated into Midjourney to give you some control.
Message edited by author 2023-05-08 15:36:21. |
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05/08/2023 04:14:24 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by MargaretNet:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
...
I am hoping that ChatGPT (or equivalent) will be incorporated into Midjourney soon, the current reliance on trying out prompts wastes a lot of time and is very frustrating.
Why not ask chatgpt to generate your prompt and copy and paste? |
ChatGPT can generate many alternative descriptions to put into Midjourney, but that only gives you more different images to look at, you still don't know which description will generate an image closest to what you wanted. ChatGPT would need to be closely integrated into Midjourney to give you some control. |
Absolutely no doubt the programmers will integrate very soon |
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05/08/2023 06:30:41 PM · #11 |
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
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05/08/2023 10:08:46 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the absolutely further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
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05/08/2023 10:09:05 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the analogy further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
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05/08/2023 10:24:39 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the absolutely further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
Yes, but a very small percentage will believe those people are equally talented and regard them as athletes.
Message edited by author 2023-05-08 23:02:16. |
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05/08/2023 10:54:02 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I am saddened that the awe of human talent is being removed |
I recently heard about someone who found a bust in a junk pile, yard sale, whatever.....
Point is, it turned out to be some Roman statue or some such thing.
There will always be some who don't recognize art, intellect, music, or any and all of the most incredible fruits of the human imagination.
There will always be special human touches.
People will be displaced along the way and new inroads that require people to have different skills that were incomprehensible a few decades ago are a reality.
I know I love watching everything I see unfolding in front of me on a daily basis in every aspect of my life.
I am totally and completely in awe of human talent and will always be.
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05/09/2023 11:45:26 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I am totally and completely in awe of human talent and will always be. |
I absolutely agree; it is the awe that is inspiring. There is nothing inspiring about a computer program kicking out code. it reminds me of artists that sell backgrounds for newborn composites that just have a hole for the face of the baby. Do some people want that? Sure, I would not. I want to document memories, actual bodies. When I take portraits I work to create a memory for the entire family that is present when they look back at the photos. I want my seniors to remember us laughing, their totally dorky photographer that lays on the ground to get the shot because they are so amazing! That hyped them up about where they are and where they are going. I want the mom’s to look back at their son and remember he didn’t want to do senior photos but happily went along for ‘his mom’. Would it be fun to plop their face in to an AI program? Absolutely! Entertaining for a moment of laughter but it will never replace everything that they associate with an actual photo session.
Just my opinion and in no way limits the entertainment of AI — for me, they are simply not the same both have value. |
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05/09/2023 11:47:25 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the analogy further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
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I don't see any difference between these arguments against AI and the arguments against photography when that was a new technology. |
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05/09/2023 11:52:00 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the analogy further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
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I don't see any difference between these arguments against AI and the arguments against photography when that was a new technology. |
Thank you |
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05/09/2023 01:51:42 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
I have thought a lot about this today and I am sure my opinion will change a few more times. I am an analogy thinker and for me, AI photos remind me of playing Golf on the Wii - when I get a hole in one or a super low score it’s fun and awesome but I don’t feel like I could play on the circuit.
Does it make it less ‘entertaining’? Absolutely not but I also don’t take it seriously. Learning how to work your equipment, mastering a skill/genre, practicing and working towards something should always be revered (and will be by me) as an accomplishment and possessing talent. That doesn’t take away from the entertainment value that the wii affords me or my appreciation for the entertainment it provides. |
To take the analogy further, though. People who are getting high scores on the Wii are now competing with people who have spent their life training for the masters, and are taking their spots. That has more significance. |
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I don't see any difference between these arguments against AI and the arguments against photography when that was a new technology. |
For the record, I am NOT against AI but I would take exception that 'this is the future of photography' or that the talent/effort to produce images is the same as a photographer or a painter or anyone who learns a medium. I believe it is fun entertainment but not art I would feel a connection to hang on my wall, except maybe a passing wallpaper for my phone (which is cool in and of itself). Nor would I feel pride and want to share 'my work' and claim credit for producing. But I would share it in a "geez, look at what this program can do"
Message edited by author 2023-05-09 13:53:29. |
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05/09/2023 01:58:41 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by ErinKirsten:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I am totally and completely in awe of human talent and will always be. |
I absolutely agree; it is the awe that is inspiring. There is nothing inspiring about a computer program kicking out code. it reminds me of artists that sell backgrounds for newborn composites that just have a hole for the face of the baby. Do some people want that? Sure, I would not. I want to document memories, actual bodies. When I take portraits I work to create a memory for the entire family that is present when they look back at the photos. I want my seniors to remember us laughing, their totally dorky photographer that lays on the ground to get the shot because they are so amazing! That hyped them up about where they are and where they are going. I want the mom’s to look back at their son and remember he didn’t want to do senior photos but happily went along for ‘his mom’. Would it be fun to plop their face in to an AI program? Absolutely! Entertaining for a moment of laughter but it will never replace everything that they associate with an actual photo session.
Just my opinion and in no way limits the entertainment of AI — for me, they are simply not the same both have value. |
https://daily.jstor.org/when-photography-was-not-art/ |
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05/09/2023 02:23:53 PM · #21 |
I think about my genre of photography and the joy/frustrations I derive from physically being present to produce my peeps with their pets portraits. AI would undoubtedly allow me to achieve respectable results in a fraction of the time, cost, and effort (not to mention getting the EXACT head tilt, face angle, lighting, etc.). And i wouldn't have to deal with temperaments, messes, or reluctant models.
I would never have to bother the notable people I photograph other than to have them sign a release, and I could easily put out a book a year. And I would lose any and all humanity and collaboration involved in the creative process, and amusing anecdotesof the shoot.
But if what I do can be reduced to a prompt anybody can imput, then what I do is no longer special or original, no longer requires my particular skills, and I would move on to something else. |
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05/09/2023 06:23:10 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
But if what I do can be reduced to a prompt anybody can imput, then what I do is no longer special or original, no longer requires my particular skills, and I would move on to something else. |
In a somewhat related sense, this is why I sold my Architectural Photography gear and business to my long-time assistant and moved on to other things. When I began the career, in the early 70's, it was a highly artistic endeavor that involved working in close collaboration with architects to produce portfolios, usually of B/W images, that represented in great detail the creativity of the architect's process. We worked for serious architects building serious buildings. We worked for architectural publications. We also worked for shelter publications, to the level of scouting out projects and repping them to editors, which helped promote our clients.
By the mid-80s, however, the writing was on the wall. Instead of architects hiring photographers to shoot their buildings, PHOTOGRAPHERS were going to suppliers and vendors (the siding people, the flooring manufacturers, the developers, you name it) and putting together commitments from those folks which were then presented to architects as "PPG, Alcoa, Herman Miller, and Tri-City Development have hired me to do photos of your project. If you give me access you can have unlimited use of the images at no cost except for the prints." And this would be almost entirely large-format, color-transparency work.
At the most fundamental level I couldn't do this, because I'm deaf and can't work the phones. But at a more personal level, it wasn't fun anymore even when my assistant would help set these projects up. I wanted to be a COLLABORATOR, a participant in the creative process, not a commercial photographer working for faceless corporations.
So things are always changing, aren't they?
FWIW... |
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05/09/2023 08:37:47 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
So things are always changing, aren't they?
FWIW... |
Yes they are. Which is why it's important to be an innovator and why I prefer it to being a me-too. Regardless, change is inevitable and thus we "adapt or die". |
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11/25/2023 10:58:58 AM · #24 |
| I imagine painters had these same thoughts when photography first started. However, both were using skills not needed to type in some prompts on a computer. I see AI as creating art, but I don't think I will be using it for my photos. I am getting to the point that I want the entire photo to be mine, whether that means creating my own background textures or using my sky photos for a sky replacement (which I rarely do). That said, I do use the remove tool and content-aware fill when needed in cropping. |
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