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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Minimal Question..... (for RED VIII challenge)
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05/01/2023 09:20:47 PM · #1
Extra rules for "Red VIII"

For this challenge you may rotate your image incrementally and crop it:

According to the standard Minimal rules, you're always allowed the incremental rotation 90, 180, 270, etc.

BUT.....

Can I get a ruling/official description on how and what I can crop?

My primary concern is centering which I can do by taking an uneven amount from the sides and/or top & bottom.

Is that okay?
05/01/2023 09:32:15 PM · #2
I'd think using a standard crop tool is acceptable. One opinion only ... (seems pretty straight-forward).
05/01/2023 11:22:41 PM · #3
I don't see any mention of 'crop' in the minimal rules... except for:

You may not...
make any other adjustments to your image than those listed above. This includes, but is not limited to, cropping, adjusting brightness, hue/saturation, levels, curves, etc. Except as provided above, your image as entered must be identical to the original

So, can't crop at all I think.

ETA> I see the extra rules now. Ignore me.

Message edited by author 2023-05-01 23:23:53.
05/02/2023 12:43:35 AM · #4
You can crop and rotate as you prefer for this challenge.
05/02/2023 12:45:51 AM · #5
Deleted . . . . Found it

Message edited by author 2023-05-02 00:46:42.
05/02/2023 02:22:42 AM · #6
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

You can crop and rotate as you prefer for this challenge.


Um, no. It says you can rotate incrementally, in 90°, 180°, or 270° increments.

I don't take that to mean that I can straighten my image by rotating the axis 12°.
05/02/2023 09:23:48 AM · #7
Jeb, there is a special rule for this challenge allowing it. See the description with the yellow flag.

Extra Rules:MINIMAL EDITING with the following exception: For this challenge you may rotate your image incrementally and crop it: ALL other Minimal Editing rules apply.

Message edited by author 2023-05-02 09:44:07.
05/02/2023 09:50:11 AM · #8
The issue may be in the wording we used in the special rule: "may rotate incrementally". The regular Minimal Rules specify 90-degree "increments". There may be some confusion about the special rule because of that.

In the future, would "may rotate at will" work? Or is there an even clearer wording out there that we're missing? :-)
05/02/2023 10:00:22 AM · #9
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

The issue may be in the wording we used in the special rule: "may rotate incrementally". The regular Minimal Rules specify 90-degree "increments". There may be some confusion about the special rule because of that.

In the future, would "may rotate at will" work? Or is there an even clearer wording out there that we're missing? :-)

"You may rotate and crop your image" should work as a Special Rule ...
05/02/2023 10:12:14 AM · #10
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

The issue may be in the wording we used in the special rule: "may rotate incrementally". The regular Minimal Rules specify 90-degree "increments". There may be some confusion about the special rule because of that.

In the future, would "may rotate at will" work? Or is there an even clearer wording out there that we're missing? :-)

"You may rotate and crop your image" should work as a Special Rule ...


That. I can see how the wording of the extra rule on this challenge could be confusing, especially due to the similarity to the wording of the Minimal Rules.
05/02/2023 11:11:19 AM · #11
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

You can crop and rotate as you prefer for this challenge.


Is that: "rotate and crop" as in "crop off the bits that are no longer part of the image due to the rotation"? Or is cropping also allowed as a stand alone editing move (i.e could you crop off and change the format of the image)?
05/02/2023 11:27:47 AM · #12
Cropping is unlimited as long as the image meets the minimum dimensions.
05/02/2023 11:33:55 AM · #13
Originally posted by gladtobadad:

I'd think using a standard crop tool is acceptable. One opinion only ... (seems pretty straight-forward).


Originally posted by Bear_Music:

The issue may be in the wording we used in the special rule: "may rotate incrementally". The regular Minimal Rules specify 90-degree "increments". There may be some confusion about the special rule because of that.

In the future, would "may rotate at will" work? Or is there an even clearer wording out there that we're missing? :-)


Originally posted by GeneralE:

"You may rotate and crop your image" should work as a Special Rule ...


Originally posted by kirbic:

That. I can see how the wording of the extra rule on this challenge could be confusing, especially due to the similarity to the wording of the Minimal Rules.


Cool....

I got FOUR SC responses. LOL!

I wanted to clarify since those two allowances can drastically change an image that needs "Straightened and Balanced"

Considering the hoops I went through trying to compose my image, these extra rules made an otherwise almost unusable image pretty decent IMNSHO.

Gonna bookmark this thread to plead my case against a DQ if I need it.

LOL!
05/02/2023 11:41:47 AM · #14
All - please be aware, unless there are "Special" rules in place, as there is in this particular Minimal editing challenge, the following Minimal Rules apply otherwise.

I only toss that out there because there is a fair amount of conversation in this thread that is specific to one challenge (RED VIII).
05/02/2023 11:43:06 AM · #15
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Cropping is unlimited as long as the image meets the minimum dimensions.

Thank you
05/02/2023 04:31:05 PM · #16
Originally posted by glad2badad:

All - please be aware, unless there are "Special" rules in place, as there is in this particular Minimal editing challenge, the following Minimal Rules apply otherwise.

I only toss that out there because there is a fair amount of conversation in this thread that is specific to one challenge (RED VIII).


Yep.....

That's why I asked as what was stated in the extra rules on rotation mirrored the regular rotation allowance.

I also wanted to know if there was any limit on crop outside of standard minimum width/length limits.

I dunno, Barry, this particular extra ruleset sure take some of the challenge out of minimal.

[Grinnin' & Duckin']
05/02/2023 06:12:11 PM · #17
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I dunno, Barry, this particular extra ruleset sure take some of the challenge out of minimal.

[Grinnin' & Duckin']

[Biting my tongue!] :-D
05/02/2023 08:35:47 PM · #18
To be fair, in the past we had a sort of mini-revolt amongst the pitchforked masses, that we never, ever allowed cropping or small increments of rotation. We basically make people happy by doing flagged minimals like this one. At the same time, amongst the larger body of SC we have some (Barry's one, hence the tongue bite), who think Minimal should be exactly that, and others (I'm one) who think there's no purpose to them anymore (notwithstanding Jeb's wonderfully eloquent defenses of the genre).

Anyway, it was past time for a minimal, I realized we hadn't had a cropper in a coon's age, so there it is :-)
05/03/2023 07:45:49 AM · #19
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

To be fair, in the past we had a sort of mini-revolt amongst the pitchforked masses, that we never, ever allowed cropping or small increments of rotation. We basically make people happy by doing flagged minimals like this one. At the same time, amongst the larger body of SC we have some (Barry's one, hence the tongue bite), who think Minimal should be exactly that, and others (I'm one) who think there's no purpose to them anymore (notwithstanding Jeb's wonderfully eloquent defenses of the genre).

Anyway, it was past time for a minimal, I realized we hadn't had a cropper in a coon's age, so there it is :-)


Barry, did you hear a funny noise in the room????

Thought I heard something wheeze. LOL!

I think some of us have long since accepted that we will never understand why some people choose to be mortally offended by the Minimal ruleset.

It always seemed to me to be an obvious choice.

Don't like the ruleset, don't participate.

It just seems to me to be the ultimate level playing field and I love that it makes me work so hard to get it right.

But ya gotta do what keeps your people happy.....
05/03/2023 08:08:14 AM · #20
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

To be fair, in the past we had a sort of mini-revolt amongst the pitchforked masses, that we never, ever allowed cropping or small increments of rotation. We basically make people happy by doing flagged minimals like this one. At the same time, amongst the larger body of SC we have some (Barry's one, hence the tongue bite), who think Minimal should be exactly that, and others (I'm one) who think there's no purpose to them anymore (notwithstanding Jeb's wonderfully eloquent defenses of the genre).

Anyway, it was past time for a minimal, I realized we hadn't had a cropper in a coon's age, so there it is :-)


Barry, did you hear a funny noise in the room????

Thought I heard something wheeze. LOL!

I think some of us have long since accepted that we will never understand why some people choose to be mortally offended by the Minimal ruleset.

It always seemed to me to be an obvious choice.

Don't like the ruleset, don't participate.

It just seems to me to be the ultimate level playing field and I love that it makes me work so hard to get it right.

But ya gotta do what keeps your people happy.....


I'm one who fought for the cropping -- because it does level the playing field. I do like the minimal challenges, because I do have to think through and not rely on processing. However, it's possible for landscape, portrait, still life, etc., photographers to crop in camera and get it right. But wildlife photographers can't. (unless you're working with very tame wildlife!)

Getting everything else right in camera is extremely important for a perfect final shot. The lighting, the aperture, the focal length, color balance, etc., but cropping in camera is so unimportant in comparison. Plus there's nothing magic about 4x6.

On top of that, it teaches bad habits. I ALWAYS crop in camera, when I can. And I've gotten screwed by it sooooo many times. I'll crop to a really good portrait, and then people want different aspect ratios. And because I didn't leave enough room for an 8x10, I had to expand the canvas. Poorly, in many cases!

So the rest of the settings are an excellent reminder of how to do it right, and thus have an even better photo when you choose to play with it in post processing, cropping is not one of those skills that should necessarily be done in camera.
05/03/2023 08:36:59 AM · #21
Disagree, politely ... composition is key to capturing a solid image. Learning to get it right (without cropping) is an important aspect of photography. The Minimal ruleset is basically an exercise in this endeavor (getting it right in camera). Is it always practical in real life? No. ... but, this is an exercise, and a very infrequently run one at that. :-)
05/03/2023 08:45:59 AM · #22
For me the ability to crop is very important. I've got very shaky hands and find it extremely difficult to keep my horizons straight. My camera is almost always set on continuous but no two photos come out with the exact same crop.

Message edited by author 2023-05-03 08:48:31.
05/03/2023 08:54:59 AM · #23
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Disagree, politely ... composition is key to capturing a solid image. Learning to get it right (without cropping) is an important aspect of photography. The Minimal ruleset is basically an exercise in this endeavor (getting it right in camera). Is it always practical in real life? No. ... but, this is an exercise, and a very infrequently run one at that. :-)


I have the composition -- they're just too far away, so I need to crop in. I'm definitely going for the composition. Always.
05/03/2023 09:29:12 AM · #24
Originally posted by vawendy:

.. they're just too far away, so I need to crop in ...

Get a longer lens! <runs for cover>
05/03/2023 09:47:16 AM · #25
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Disagree, politely ... composition is key to capturing a solid image. Learning to get it right (without cropping) is an important aspect of photography. The Minimal ruleset is basically an exercise in this endeavor (getting it right in camera). Is it always practical in real life? No. ... but, this is an exercise, and a very infrequently run one at that. :-)

I have the composition -- they're just too far away, so I need to crop in. I'm definitely going for the composition. Always.

Same goes for "candid" photography as well: no time to change lenses, beat feet to a closer vantage, whatever. Lots of times *the* composition is there withing the larger frame.
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