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11/11/2004 11:13:36 AM · #51 |
And there are always alternative explanations:
"A Canadian scientist is pouring cold, unfrozen water on the notion that global warming is melting arctic sea ice like a Popsicle at the beach.
Greg Holloway galvanized an international meeting of arctic scientists Tuesday by saying there is little evidence of a rapid decline of the volume of ice in the northern oceans.
Despite breathless media reports and speculation of an ice-free Northwest Passage, he suggests that it's far more likely that the ice has just been moved around in the cycles of Arctic winds.
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"I believe it is most probably explained with the shifting ice within the Arctic locations," he said to applause from scientific delegates from Norway to China.
If the submarines had made their first visit one year earlier and their return one year later, Holloway says they would have found no change in the thickness of the sea ice at all."
Full story here |
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11/11/2004 11:38:51 AM · #52 |
To stop a volcano from erupting...pray to the gods.
To attempt a slowing of global warming petition the government for regulations that protect our most vital resource...our only home in the universe. We owe it to our progeny and our love of life.
The more individuals are involved with making changes to the ways they live to effect global warming the greater the impact it will have for the better. Here is an instance where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. In addition, a larger and larger movement to effect global warming will ensue that will demand of our government and corporations that they be beholden to the ethic of preserving the health of the earth and people. Changes need to be made at the macro level in order to effect the micro. Corporations are by far the greatest polluters and one of the reasons they so favor globalization is so that they can establish production plants in foreign countries to evade environmental regulations here in the US. (These regulations are currently being underminded by the Bush administration.)
The human causes of global warming also effect the health of people in other ways as well, such as increases in asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, cancer. These problems are not going away either. So why with all these questions about these health issues is it so much to ask of our corporations, that make so much money, and whose CEOs are making megabucks to put a stop to their destructive ways? So few benefit from it, yet so many will be, and already are, effected in the negative.
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I'll make this point again:
It's just amazing to me that those who will err on the side of going to war will not act CONSERVATIVELY (!!!) when it comes to conserving the environment. It will be way too late to make changes to our behaviors if and when mother earth turns against us. Many are arguing that this is already happening. What can be harmful about attempting to effect global warming, whether or not you believe it is human induced or not?
I don't understand how these people can be supportive of policies that act in destructive ways against humanity and the environment. I think that their answers to these questions would be that it is harmful to business, which, from what I can see, has helped to get us into this predicament to begin with. |
I don't know who "those" are that you are referring to. I, for one, agree wholeheartedly that there is absolutely nothing harmful about attempting to effect global warming, whether or not you believe it is human induced or not. I just don't know how to stop a volcano from erupting :-). I can, and do, however promote environmental conservation in whatever ways I can ( recycling, using the stairs instead of teh elevator, walking if the target is less than a mile, etc. ). But for all that, I am not convinced that even a concerted effort by mankind can really affect global warming, if Mother Nature decides otherwise - a moderate volcanic explosian ( Mt. St. Helens ), for example can have several thousand times more effect than the combined efforts of all U.S. citizens in the course of a year. |
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11/11/2004 11:40:08 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by kevinf:
You are right in saying there is no conclusive evidence supporting the claim that human activity is causing global warming but I work for Johns Hopkins University on a USAID project to deliver public health information to developing countries. Global warming is outside that scope but I just did a quick search of my database and can give you the bibliographic information of almost 150 research papers published from all over the world discussing the effects global warming has been having on public health. If you would like. |
Kevin, thanks for the offer, but that is really not necessary. In the research that I did, it is more than evident that global warming IS occurring at present, and the it IS having an impact on public health, and the environment ( e.g. animal habitats in the arctic region, etc. ). I do not dispute any of that. I am only disputing the charge that it is all a direct result of human activity in the main.
P.S. I tried the popline link but only got a survey page. If you'd tell me what to fill out on that page, and then what to search for within Popline, I'd be glad to take a look at what you recommend. |
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11/11/2004 12:05:40 PM · #54 |
I don't know if anyone was saying human activity is THE cause of global warming. If they did then I agree with you, there is no evidence. But as many scientist say, and I dare say it's the majority of them working directly in this field, are saying there is a high probability that human activity is a contributing factor. There is also very conclusive evidence that global warming is having a detrimental efect on our public health. So, as Olyuzi pointed out I don't understand the rational (and I don't mean to imply this rational is coming from you) that it's okay to dedicate billions of dollars and thousands of lives to start a war as a pre-emptive strike but it isn't okay to spend money and resources aggressively investigating ways we could have a more positive impact on our environment and our public health. My only point for posting in this thread was to offer credible research that shows global warming is affecting us. And since it is, I think it would make more sense to try something rather than saying 'well, we don't know conclusively this is because of anything we are doing so lets do nothing and hope it gets better.'
And, yeah the survey is something annoying we had to put up temporarily to get some user data. If you really are interested just answer the three questions in the center and then search for =global warming when you are redirected. |
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11/11/2004 12:37:17 PM · #55 |
I think that says it all. |
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11/11/2004 12:41:25 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
I think that says it all. |
I thought it was against DPC policy to hijack threads by posting photographs. |
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11/11/2004 12:42:50 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
Originally posted by Imagineer:
I think that says it all. |
I thought it was against DPC policy to hijack threads by posting photographs. |
The photo makes alot of sense in this thread. LOL cool one!
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11/11/2004 12:43:31 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
Originally posted by Imagineer:
I think that says it all. |
I thought it was against DPC policy to hijack threads by posting photographs. |
it is, but it is not a photo, it is a video. and it is a political video that shows what GW Bush thinks about the enviroment. It's clearly on topic.
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11/11/2004 01:15:11 PM · #59 |
30 years ago the world's leading scientists were predicting we were entering another ice age. now it is we are getting too hot. They can't seem to decide which it is, and most will admit they don't understand the interaction of everything.
Global warming is due to less green and more pavement. Pollution is not a major player. more pavement means more heating of the ground, more radiated heat at night. visit a city vs the country and you will feel and meaasure 10-15 degree temp differential. we pave more more worldwide every year.
add to that more buildings and cars - they are MUCH warmer than the surrounding air/trees etc and radiate the heat. in the summer, we coold buildings but that heat is then expelled into the atmosphere.
an average person radiates more heat that the ambient temperature. more people means more warmth. (add people to a room and you increse the heat load and temp of thta room significantly). worldwide, same thing.
greenhouse gasses are but a small part of the bigger picture, but an easy one to point a finger at. |
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11/11/2004 02:22:18 PM · #60 |
While some of the points alluding to an absence of, or confusion around, global warming may have substance, it would be rather nice if the man responsible for the world's largest polluter made a gesture in the right direction.
Something like 'God Bless the World' instead of just America? In absence of the Kyoto participation some comfort for the rest of us would be good... |
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11/11/2004 02:46:29 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Imagineer:
While some of the points alluding to an absence of, or confusion around, global warming may have substance, it would be rather nice if the man responsible for the world's largest polluter made a gesture in the right direction.
Something like 'God Bless the World' instead of just America? In absence of the Kyoto participation some comfort for the rest of us would be good... |
Forgive me if I'm a little dull today. But just who/what do you mean by the reference "the world's largest polluter"? |
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11/11/2004 02:52:13 PM · #62 |
yea your climate reports are completely biased.. there are many scientists that disagree...
when I look in my driveway I see a car, a car I use to drive to work to support my family, a car that needs oil... so drill away baby... if Canada can drill their great white north safely so can we... the area they want to drill in is less than 1% of 1% of the land in dispute... thats a miniscule amount of land in comparrison to what will remain untouched... as usual, the argument against drilling there is pointless and based fear and far left wing extreme tree-huggingism, rather than based on fact... good thing you got outvoted, again
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11/11/2004 02:53:00 PM · #63 |
Quote RonB Forgive me if I'm a little dull today. But just who/what do you mean by the reference "the world's largest polluter"?
The worlds largest polluter
US unrivalled as top carbon polluter
CIA - The World Factbook - United States
US Military largest source of toxic waste
Message edited by author 2004-11-11 14:58:48.
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11/11/2004 03:42:30 PM · #64 |
Photographs impact Alaskan oil drilling debate
For those who say these political threads have nothing to do with photography. :) |
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11/11/2004 03:42:55 PM · #65 |
Indeed.
The CIA fact book is a great source of information when comparing world and country statistics. |
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11/11/2004 03:43:42 PM · #66 |
Thanks for the links. I find it interesting that they base their condemnation on the measurement of only ONE pollutant - CO2. There are, as you know, many more greenhouse gasses and particulates of importance ( carbon monoxide, sulpher dioxide, nitrous oxide, flyash, etc. ).
But, at least, now I know who/what you were referring to.
It might be of interest to some that on a per capita basis ( a far more meaningful measurement, I believe ) the worst greenhouse emmiters are Australia, followed by Luxembourg, the U.S., Canada and New Zealand. |
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11/11/2004 04:19:07 PM · #67 |
Another interesting statistic which goes far to show why we are so interested in "liberating" the middle east.
World Rank Order - Oil - consumption |
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11/11/2004 04:21:12 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by RonB:
It might be of interest to some that on a per capita basis ( a far more meaningful measurement, I believe ) the worst greenhouse emmiters are Australia, followed by Luxembourg, the U.S., Canada and New Zealand. |
The most meaningful measurement is how much polution there actually is - not whose emissions are worst.
The key here is collective ambitions. A huge nation such as the US owes a debt to the world to have an increased responsibility in this area, since the negative impact of environmental disregard by so many is devastating.
My brother is a US citizen and I saw from a recent visit to San Fran at least, that many people have scant regard for environmental issues when choosing their vehicles. A four litre gas guzzler appears to be the norm.
Yes, it's not all CO2 but this is an indicator of the way [many] Americans view the issue: ie, it's not as important as their own gratuitous love of the car and all it stands for. Then, I imagine, one carries the argument forward and a picture is formed of the massive disparity of attitude with likes of most of Europe. When one is the world's largest superpower, it holds little value making comparisons with the smaller nations (Australia excluded) that have far less influence on change.
The chance to alter negative perceptions of other nations, such as we disenchanted in the UK, came and went with the election. And self-interest won the day after Dubya's Family, Faith and Flag message (and where's the World view in that?).
By the way, Luxembourg barely has enough room for one Grand Cherokee, let alone a few million. |
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11/11/2004 04:27:30 PM · #69 |
| Actually.. If you put 1 plus 2 you are likely to get 3 |
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11/11/2004 08:14:56 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Thanks for the links. I find it interesting that they base their condemnation on the measurement of only ONE pollutant - CO2. There are, as you know, many more greenhouse gasses and particulates of importance ( carbon monoxide, sulpher dioxide, nitrous oxide, flyash, etc. ).
But, at least, now I know who/what you were referring to.
It might be of interest to some that on a per capita basis ( a far more meaningful measurement, I believe ) the worst greenhouse emmiters are Australia, followed by Luxembourg, the U.S., Canada and New Zealand. |
Hey Ron
Its damn cold up here, we are just trying to stay warm! |
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11/11/2004 08:37:41 PM · #71 |
Well, I can see five drilling rigs from my house and I just love it!
The worlds largest polution is the result of nuclear reactors. All this other stuff you are talking about is short term and miniscule and maynot even be a result of human intervention and the bulk of it we have no control of. On the other hand, nuclear waste will haunt our world for thousands of years. Of course we do have the benefit of depleated uranium to use in our munitions. We just don't want to be shooting that crap over here. |
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11/11/2004 08:45:58 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by Dim7:
Originally posted by RonB:
Thanks for the links. I find it interesting that they base their condemnation on the measurement of only ONE pollutant - CO2. There are, as you know, many more greenhouse gasses and particulates of importance ( carbon monoxide, sulpher dioxide, nitrous oxide, flyash, etc. ).
But, at least, now I know who/what you were referring to.
It might be of interest to some that on a per capita basis ( a far more meaningful measurement, I believe ) the worst greenhouse emmiters are Australia, followed by Luxembourg, the U.S., Canada and New Zealand. |
Hey Ron
Its damn cold up here, we are just trying to stay warm! |
I can relate to that. I was born and reared in Connecticut, and spent a year in the military 90 miles north of Nome, Alaska, and another year in St. Albans, Vermont.
When I think about global warming, I remember that when I was a kid, living in Connecticut some 50 years ago, we used to always go ice skating after our Thanksgiving dinner - now, it seems that you can't even go skating on Christmas Day. That's global warming.
FYI, the buildings on our military base in Kotzebue had refrigeration coils lining the footings, to ensure that the perma-frost remained that way - permanently frozen. Without the coils, heat from the buildings would reach down into the footings and thaw the perma-frost. Then again, it got so cold there one week that our diesel lines froze, even though they were wrapped with heating tape ( above ground ). We had to unwrap them and thaw them with a blowtorch once the weather eased. On another occasion we got lost on the polar ice during a white-out. Could have strangled the guy who busted our compass - but up until then it wasn't a big deal. Luckily, we had radio and we were able to triangulate our position, move for 15 minutes, triangulate again, and determine our heading ( wrong way ). We did make it back, obviously. |
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11/11/2004 09:06:24 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Of course we do have the benefit of depleated uranium to use in our munitions. We just don't want to be shooting that crap over here. |
Does this statement offend anyone else?
And Americans wonder why the world does not like us... |
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11/11/2004 10:00:52 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Me, my fortune, I am, I enjoy, I live, Lo love, I'm loved, I'm liked, I play, I'm happy... and I don't care what I destroy in the mean time and what I leave for the future generatins... A really valuable lesson, thank you. |
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My friends: A conservative cares about the environment, we care about poverty and human suffereing..however, we do not go about making this academic and most basic points a political drive. You continue to miss the point because you attest to be a better person then those that do not ahgree with your fever. Get off the superiority bag and you will notice that your life will be better when you stop telling people what to do because you know better. Think about it. |
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11/11/2004 11:08:07 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"Id like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that your not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment. But you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet."
-Agent Smith "The Matrix" |
Ditto
but there is more......
Morpheus: What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad.
I need to see those movies again, so much more than just hollywood film.
Message edited by author 2004-11-11 23:09:01. |
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