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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Black & white - basic editting
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 11/10/2004 05:15:55 PM · #26
The challenge description blatantly says "Reduce the world to a palette of grays."

There isn't much leeway that the voter has to give with this description. Submitting anything other than a grayscale image would be foolish. This issue came up the last time we had a b/w challenge. I suppose that was ignored/forgotten about when this challenge was planned, or maybe the site specifically doesn't want toned images in this challenge. There was specifically a duotone challenge at one point, but this is not the case here.

You may interpret this challenge description any way you want, but it's not likely going to be 'mainstream' if you submit a toned image. It sucks, but it's true. GeneralE says you can submit one, of course. I noticed that he didn't include the fact that it would be foolish to do it :)

11/10/2004 05:21:52 PM · #27
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
The challenge description blatantly says "Reduce the world to a palette of grays."


Is white grey ? Is black grey ?

This could be fun...


11/10/2004 05:23:04 PM · #28

Toned with curves


Quadtone


Quadtone


Channel Mixer Grayscale

I think only one of these meets the challenge as defined by the description.
 11/10/2004 05:24:04 PM · #29
They all bloody well meet the challenge. If it's Duotone, why aren't we naming colours?

edit: also, is it required to have 'black' & 'white' in a B&W shot? If so how do we prove it?

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 17:26:39.
 11/10/2004 05:28:34 PM · #30
Originally posted by xion:
They all bloody well meet the challenge. If it's Duotone, why aren't we naming colours?

edit: also, is it required to have 'black' & 'white' in a B&W shot? If so how do we prove it?


If there is one thing I have learned at DPC, it's that you should never deviate from the challenge description if you want a decent score. There will be enough voters who adhere to the description as written that it will make a huge difference.
 11/10/2004 05:31:12 PM · #31
Originally posted by xion:
They all bloody well meet the challenge. If it's Duotone, why aren't we naming colours?


Plenty of people will disagree with you. The green toned pepper above is a fine example of this happening. Not a great shot, but plenty of 'this isn't B&W!' type reaction too.

11/10/2004 05:33:16 PM · #32
I know that I am sort of new here. But there's also another thread were people are discussing 'Bizarre' nature and the winners of the challenge. My experience here is that Eye Candy dominates.
 11/10/2004 05:39:42 PM · #33
Gordon, yep. I have read the comments and some are unbelieavable. Sounds more like they have never worked with B&W. Anway, I have to get back to other things in life now.
 11/10/2004 05:54:49 PM · #34
I just think its funny how people try and find ways to distort the rules if it says black and white, its B&W and not black and blue. I think people should just stick to what its given and just try to interprtate.. Thats my opinion. Way always ask can we do that, way not try it your self and see if it passes or not. But to me b&W is B&W. my opinion.
 11/10/2004 06:16:34 PM · #35
The Challenge is called Black & White II

The Details say
"Reduce the world to a palette of grays, and focus on light, shade, line, texture and form."

This does not talk about duo tone, tri tone et al. it talks about greys.
not brown ish, sepia ish or any other colour other than a tonal mixture of greys which is a mixture of white and Black.

Lots of previous parts of this thread refer to B/W. this is the heading of this challenge not the detail.

/getting of soap box

11/10/2004 06:17:25 PM · #36
Ok, I am back. No one here is trying to bend any rules, but rather trying to discuss like grown ups.
Say a B&W is a Black and White. And there's the question about the palette of greys. As Gordon said, where does both Black and White fit in a palette or greys? Is it 100% grey and 0% grey? I think not. A B&W with no blacks and whites is still a B&W? Because it's got greys? Black and White is a general term, at least in Photography.
 11/10/2004 06:23:30 PM · #37
Originally posted by xion:
Ok, I am back. No one here is trying to bend any rules, but rather trying to discuss like grown ups.
Say a B&W is a Black and White. And there's the question about the palette of greys. As Gordon said, where does both Black and White fit in a palette or greys? Is it 100% grey and 0% grey? I think not. A B&W with no blacks and whites is still a B&W? Because it's got greys? Black and White is a general term, at least in Photography.


The only real issue here is that if tones oustide of black/white/gray are noticed, you will be hammered by the voter. Any color tints from various processing just won't do :) I see that several people have come in here to support that fact with their posts. They have already said they won't give that leeway. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

11/10/2004 06:23:48 PM · #38
As a 'for example'

Neither of these two images are black and white. They are off topic and 'don't meet the challenge'.



Also outwith the current challenge definition are probably 90% of all 'black and white' images hanging in any given photography museum or gallery.

Message edited by author 2004-11-10 18:25:05.
 11/10/2004 06:34:22 PM · #39
For myself, anything really close to B&W would be fine. Any egregious coloring would probably be frowned upon (unless it is said that only greyscale or all duotoning is intended). Both of the pics in the previous post look B&W (or near enough) viewed alone, that I wouldn'e subtract points.
 11/10/2004 06:36:17 PM · #40
if you go and see the past B&W challenge they are all B&W.
11/10/2004 06:39:47 PM · #41
Originally posted by Discraft:
if you go and see the past B&W challenge they are all B&W.


Gordon's image is from the past B&W challenge. And his word of caution is about the comments he got. Also it's the same thing jmsetzler is saying.
 11/10/2004 06:45:51 PM · #42
It would be great to have a duotone challenge. If you take a photo and use dutones, would that be considered advanced editing?
 11/10/2004 06:46:46 PM · #43
Originally posted by Karalew:
It would be great to have a duotone challenge. If you take a photo and use dutones, would that be considered advanced editing?


It depends on the technique used rather than the result.
 11/10/2004 07:18:21 PM · #44
If I take a black and white photo on film, print it, then tone it, is it no longer Black and White?
 11/10/2004 07:19:24 PM · #45
Originally posted by Nusbaum:
Originally posted by Lafaminit:
Originally posted by smokeditor:
Then on bottom Hue/Sat adjustment layer change blending mode to Color
and then adjust the Hue slider to your preference.

Simple and easy!


Don't layers have to be in normal mode per the rules? Using color mode would cause a DQ.

This is a very common and affective method for doing the black and white conversion. I would think that we could make it ok for basic rules since the Color blending mode doesn't actually affect the final image color? Is this worth running by the site admins?


I'm curious about this also. After trying many different ways to convert to b & w, I've started using this method (found it in another thread) and really like the results I'm getting.

Is it legal? Anyone know for sure?
 11/10/2004 07:32:02 PM · #46
Originally posted by Tycho:
Add a Levels layer, then add a Hue/Saturation layer and completely desat. Go back to Levels and adjust each channel to your taste (From "The Photoshop Elements Book for Digital Photographers" by Scott Kelby)


Thanks, this sounds like what I need. The other method mentioned is the one I usually use, but I'm pretty sure it's not legal under the current basic editting rules.
 11/10/2004 08:04:00 PM · #47
Originally posted by Artan:
The Challenge is called Black & White II

The Details say
"Reduce the world to a palette of grays, and focus on light, shade, line, texture and form."

This does not talk about duo tone, tri tone et al. it talks about greys.
not brown ish, sepia ish or any other colour other than a tonal mixture of greys which is a mixture of white and Black.

Lots of previous parts of this thread refer to B/W. this is the heading of this challenge not the detail.

/getting of soap box

Please take this as an interesting debate, not a personal attack or challenge...

The first step in creating a duo or quad tone is to convert the image to grayscale so all of the color is removed. So this is "black and white" photography where shade, light, line, and texture are the focus. You then tone the image with duo or quad tone to get the same affect that was achieved in the darkroom using chemicals. My point is that this would all fall under the traditional definition of black and white. If the challenge has eliminated that option, then thats fine. I'm just a little disappointed because it limits the expressiveness that can be achieved with black and white, or should I say toned, images.
 11/10/2004 08:28:53 PM · #48
For me the issue of what is and is not a black and white photo is pretty simple.

1. I will not mark down a photo if it is a duo tone.

2. I expect a number of votes will mark down if it is not strictly black and white, a duo tone is monochrome and it could be argued that it is black and white but I am not going to get into that argument.

3. I am going to enter a black and white photo, where R = G = B for all pixels.

If someone wants to enter a duo tone I have no objections, but I do believe that they do so at a risk of losing some points from some votes.
11/10/2004 09:02:38 PM · #49
My 20D has a B&W option and I can choose between few color tones on my b&w photos, like sepia, blue and green. I would without a doubt take a toned b&w photo as a b&w photo.

What would you do?

If you will not take that as b&w photo and vote it low because of the toning, then you must vote most of the photos low because they're probably going to have a lot of gray tones in it :-D , not only pure black and pure white. And also if you take the details literally, you shouldn't use 100% black and 100% white because it tells you to "Reduce the world to a palette of grays". The details also tells us to "focus on light, shade, line, texture and form." If we take that one also literally, then we MUST focus on all of that in one shot!

I think it's best for all of us if the admins just put it in the details whether toning is ok or not.

I would say toning is ok. "Reduce the world to a palette of grays" is just a matter of speech, it means monochrome imo and 100% black and 100% white is allowed.

B&W photography is monochrome and some toning should not bring the photos down just because of the fact that toning is used.

Here are some good samples from Heiða's work that I would take as toned B&W photos:


Message edited by author 2004-11-10 21:26:31.
 11/10/2004 09:04:31 PM · #50
Originally posted by garlic:
Originally posted by Pug-H:
Another option is to take the photo with the camera set on black and white. (I presume that's possible with all digital cameras, but correct me if I'm wrong.)


You are wrong. Besides in most cases in-computer algorithms are much better for photoediting than in-camera.


How is he wrong? He simply said it was "another option." He did not say it was the ideal option, which it isn't, but it is an option.

-Terry
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