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01/06/2022 05:11:00 PM · #1
Every time I start getting sick of entering challenges
or when I don't like the challenges that are offered
or when the place is so quiet I wonder why I bother

This is why I bother!!

I took a blue ribbon in transportation

THAT'S NOT WHAT'S IMPORTANT!

I experimented with some editing and shadows and came up with an idea that I really liked

THAT'S NOT WHAT'S IMPORTANT!

I didn't quite get what I wanted, so I need to try it again some time, but I learned what I did wrong, what I want to change, what angle I should have done

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S IMPORTANT!!

What is important was LevT's comment.

"Nicely done Wendy! I probably would also flipped it horizontally, for a more natural direction of motion."

Look!

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3335/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1266900.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3335/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1266900.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/100000-104999/103142/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1267321.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/100000-104999/103142/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1267321.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

I didn't like my end photo, because the left side was way too cropped, but I didn't take it at an angle that gave me more room. I rotated, I tried everything I could, and it just wasn't right. But it's the best I could do.
Flipping the image made it not feel cramped. It opened it up. It gave it more of an endless feel. It works!

Do I look at possibilities of flipping, rotating, etc? Absolutely, ever since Pennyclick told me I should (another DPC moment). Did I ever once think about it on this image, and would I have? Never in a million years!

For those of you who have stopped giving constructive criticism because of blow back, please start again. I silently thank ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' andrewt every day (well, as often as I remember) because of a comment he made early on. I had a shot that I really loved, and he gave me a comment during voting that said "I feel that you could have done more with this image. A lot of potential here, 6". I was so proud of the image, but after the challenge was over, I PM'd him and asked what he meant. He told me what issues he had with it and how he would have done it better. I redid it and it was SUCH an improvement. That made all the difference to me. I look at every photo with an eye of "how can I make this better". I still have a lot to learn, but that one comment made a huge difference to me and my photography.

There's a little store on the Capital bike trail (it runs from Williamsburg to Richmond, 51.7 miles). They have some very strange, non bike related artwork up. I thought I should try to create some bike art photos. So Lev's comment really helped. I don't know if anyone would ever want to buy the shot, but it went from "meh" to "hey! maybe someone will like it. Maybe I can do this after all! What shall I do next! I'm ready!"

Don't be afraid of the people who take your criticism personally. Who respond with "That's the way I meant to do it!". If you have thoughts on what could make something better, say it. They might not care. They might be offended. The might complain. But seriously, people, you might make all the difference in the world.

Andrewt's comment was giving over 12 years ago, and I still remember which photo and who made the comment.

Pennyclick talked to me about flipping an image probably 6 or 7 years ago, and I still remember that (obviously I don't remember to think about it on all images. :P)

Anyway, enough long winded remarks. I have to go work on my wabi sabi, since I just started and didn't have a plan (typical DPC challenge, in other words. :)

Thanks Andrew and Lev and Penny!
01/06/2022 05:17:47 PM · #2
For me it works in both directions. I think the reason it may resonate more with you on the flipside is the "we read left to right" thing - that tends to be true for a lot of photography as well, with images like the way you entered it as being "backwards" to our brains.

Message edited by author 2022-01-06 17:18:04.
01/06/2022 05:21:22 PM · #3
Originally posted by Melethia:

For me it works in both directions. I think the reason it may resonate more with you on the flipside is the "we read left to right" thing - that tends to be true for a lot of photography as well, with images like the way you entered it as being "backwards" to our brains.


I actually think about that a lot. Many people want things to be looking to the right, but since the eye moves over an image from left to right, many times I flip it so the subject is the stopping point for the eye. I don't want to give them a reason to keep going on past it. But sometimes I want it to be more open ended and face it the other way.

But that's just it. I didn't think it worked the way I entered it. But on this one, when I flipped it, my mind just said "YES! HURRAY!WHOOT! (which, btw, whoot is from Spiff. Another DPC moment saved in time and memory. :)

01/06/2022 06:14:24 PM · #4
Oh Golly! Lev is so right!

Flipping it... it's clearly a dog riding a bike off into the sunset.

It didn't "sing" to me in voting, but this would have! (Not that it matters, you did ribbon with it! Ha!)

And... I love this bar, too. :D

01/06/2022 06:15:17 PM · #5
P.S. I know it's not a dog... just joking there... kinda.

It looks like a dog to me when it's flipped... which makes it even more fun!
01/06/2022 07:14:00 PM · #6
for some reason I prefer the right to left...

I love this place too.
01/06/2022 07:57:10 PM · #7
Interesting that I made way, way back (2011?) same comment to ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_F.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' neat about flipping an image so that we "read" it better.
I got numerous excellent comments also.

I remember a great comment that was posted by ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' yospiff I believe, that he got from someone else on one of his posts:
"why are you showing me that woman>"
I ask myself this question so often when I post an image

' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' LevT gave me also a very useful comment on not using partial desaturation, and a lot more

Message edited by author 2022-01-06 19:58:27.
01/06/2022 11:31:18 PM · #8
Our culture reads from left to right so I get it. But art neednít follow that. It is the artistís call. Iím left handed so saw it as great composition. Some cultures read right to left or even vertical. Why ask why?

01/07/2022 08:51:28 AM · #9
Originally posted by oldbimmercoupe:

Our culture reads from left to right so I get it. But art neednít follow that. It is the artistís call. Iím left handed so saw it as great composition. Some cultures read right to left or even vertical. Why ask why?


I ask to make somewhat informed decisions on how to place things to get the effect I want. I titled this "intensity" -- so I wanted people's eyes to end at the cat. If you're reading from left to right, the negative space comes first, you get to the cat, and that's your lasting impression (for most people)

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3331/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1266735.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3331/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1266735.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

If I wanted to give more of an ephemeral, dreaming type of thought, I would have flipped it. So you hit the cat first, and the your eye wanders of. wondering what he's looking at? just wandering in the distance?
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/100000-104999/103142/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1267338.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/100000-104999/103142/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1267338.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
I feel this one focuses less on the intesity and is more of a serene scene

Whoa -- I screwed up the background on that one

the first image actually could get people to look a little more deeply. If they don't see anything in the beginning, hit the cat, see the intensity, if they're interested enough, they'll look back to see if they missed something "what was he looking at". If they don't find it, they may end up looking again to see where the eyes are pointing. So you might get them to explore more. Case in point: ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' jim29028's comment "think I've seen that cat before, wish we knew what was being looked at to complete the picture" Sounds like the eyes bounced back and forth. It sounds like he was disappointed that he didn't know what the cat was looking at, but the eyes were on the photo longer to get there.

It's an interesting thing to comtemplate. And that's why it worked when Lev suggested flipping it. My eye stopped at the rider when I had him on the right side. So the path seemed crunched and not infinite (the road leads ever onward). When I flipped it after I received the suggestion, it was much more comfortable to my brain.

I believe Deb is a bike rider. So it's interesting she prefers the original. Hey "Yo_Spiff", are you around? Which do you like?

That's why this place is great. Some people do photography because it's their creative outlet. They want to do what they want to do. I do photography because I want people to like it. I want to intrigue, interest, wow, share with other people the things that I find beautiful/interesting, etc. I want to help them see what I see and have them share my joy. When I go to photograph my egrets, I'm completely fascinated with the flow of the action, the precision of the strike, the beauty and grace of their movements. I'm not as interested in my final product, because I've seen that, I have the memory which is better than my photo can ever be. But I want to share the moment. Artistic merit is not my thing. But knowledge of nature and it's intricacies is. That's my goal with photography. So understanding the process of how people are likely to view, consider, devour a photo is extremely important in meeting my goals.

Message edited by author 2022-01-07 08:55:26.
01/07/2022 10:48:35 AM · #10
Isn't that why people enter the challenges, to get some feedback on their photographs? If not that, at least they know that those who rate have the opportunity to comment. I don't enter challenges because I can never think of anything to enter. But the comments, it seems to me, are offered with very good intent. It's unfortunate that some take those personally and get a little defensive.
01/07/2022 11:01:04 AM · #11
Looking at this today at work (technically it's a snow day and the office is closed but there's work to do) and it looks much better than on my home monitor brighter and can see more of the cat, I so need to upgrade my home set up. I appreciate the image much more now than when I voted. I still want the image to complete and to have a target for the kitty but like the tones much more now.
01/07/2022 01:03:10 PM · #12
Originally posted by jim29028:

Looking at this today at work (technically it's a snow day and the office is closed but there's work to do) and it looks much better than on my home monitor brighter and can see more of the cat, I so need to upgrade my home set up. I appreciate the image much more now than when I voted. I still want the image to complete and to have a target for the kitty but like the tones much more now.


That's the problem with DPC and anything like that. Everybody's looking at things on different platforms which should be fine. But not everybody has calibrated their equipment.

I've actually tried the calibration process, but then it seems to calibrate the software and when I export and view it on different software it looks even different there.

So I have two monitors side by side. One that's my really good high-quality image monitor, and one that's dull, boring and underexposed. Because each one shows me different problems than the other one does. But nothing looks good on my dull monitor. And everything looks so much richer and wonderful on my good one.

It's the same with iPads and laptops. are you supposed to have the brightness all the way up? That's when things look good on DPC (when viewing everyone's image) but what is supposed to be the most accurate way?
01/07/2022 01:06:00 PM · #13
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by jim29028:

Looking at this today at work (technically it's a snow day and the office is closed but there's work to do) and it looks much better than on my home monitor brighter and can see more of the cat, I so need to upgrade my home set up. I appreciate the image much more now than when I voted. I still want the image to complete and to have a target for the kitty but like the tones much more now.


That's the problem with DPC and anything like that. Everybody's looking at things on different platforms which should be fine. But not everybody has calibrated their equipment.

I've actually tried the calibration process, but then it seems to calibrate the software and when I export and view it on different software it looks even different there.

So I have two monitors side by side. One that's my really good high-quality image monitor, and one that's dull, boring and underexposed. Because each one shows me different problems than the other one does. But nothing looks good on my dull monitor. And everything looks so much richer and wonderful on my good one.

It's the same with iPads and laptops. are you supposed to have the brightness all the way up? That's when things look good on DPC (when viewing everyone's image) but what is supposed to be the most accurate way?


And I love your comment, Jim. I love the fact that there wasn't anything, so you didn't know what the cat was looking at. I wanted the mystery and the intrigue. But I get so deep into what I'm looking for, that I always think that's clear to people. So I love knowing when something different is expected. I find the deeper conversations about images to be fascinating.

Which reminds me, I want to go back to the still life mentoring thread. It seems like there's so much to discuss now that the challenge is over. And I was busy with things at the end of the challenge. But I can still go back and resurrect it. I shall try and do that tomorrow.
01/07/2022 03:12:50 PM · #14
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:

Isn't that why people enter the challenges, to get some feedback on their photographs?


Not necessarily. For me, it was always about the process..... A week to shoot within the format of the challenge, then a week in voting. Until I got deeper into what I was doing, it was all about the score. As I grew, it became less about the score as the sole driving force as it was inuring myself to the score relative to how I felt I fared with the voters. I know that sounds like the same thing, but my next step was based on my being finished with an image when I clicked on the "Enter" button. I resolved to be okay with the image as presented, officially done, and that I'd use that score to gauge my abilities based on how the voters received it.

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:

If not that, at least they know that those who rate have the opportunity to comment.


This was my next step. I started to get comments that were IMNSHO, of more substance. The longer I was around, the more I realized that this community offers a reception committee for every type of photographer. I learned to put myself out there in different ways and found out how I was doing by the type of comments I got. As I continued, it was also who I got them from as well. There have been challenges that I didn't care how I scored because of a comment, or comments, from people who I admired and respected.

That's kind of where I'm at these days. I'm a good photographer, not a great one. I get pretty much what I want 'cause I know ho to use my camera, mostly, and I keep coming back here because it *is* a challenge. It keeps me humble 'cause I am certainly no ribbon hog.

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:

I don't enter challenges because I can never think of anything to enter.


Horse pucky! Just go for it! Once you have entered a few, you'll find a rhythm.

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:

But the comments, it seems to me, are offered with very good intent.


That would be the proper mindset to assume. But I will offer this up as a thought. It's subjective. Part of what enabled me to not wince and flinch when the obvious (to me) 7+ image was getting clobbered by a steady stream of 4s and 5s (which it likely deserved) was that I had decided that the image was "done" when I submitted it. My skills, my intent, and every aspect of that image was over except the voting.

So it kind of ended up that when I'd get less than I had hoped or expected, I wanted to know what a voter's impression of the image was. I didn't want suggestions as to how to "fix" the image, I just wanted to know if you liked it or not and why.

I also will admit to a certain level of exasperation when receiving a comment of "You would have been better off not using HDR here.", ESPECIALLY when I didn't. That's always been a pet peeve of mine. I have learned not to respond to those comments.

My point through these ramblings is that there are a bunch of different ways and perspectives that DPC provides you with various indices and perspectives.

Use them in the way that provides you with the most consistent point of view.

Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:

It's unfortunate that some take those personally and get a little defensive.


Yah, well. It *does* take a little getting used to when you find out all those images you love......truly suck until you get some of the hang of how to survive here. LOL!

The true beauty of this place is being aware of how many resources there are here to utilize to make yourself a better photographer
01/07/2022 03:22:37 PM · #15
Originally posted by vawendy:

<snip> I love the fact that there wasn't anything, so you didn't know what the cat was looking at. I wanted the mystery and the intrigue. But I get so deep into what I'm looking for, that I always think that's clear to people. So I love knowing when something different is expected. I find the deeper conversations about images to be fascinating.


This is probably what I most like about having a gallery. I love it when someone sees an image I have and likes it enough that they want to buy it. But what I really love is sitting down with a buyer and telling them the backstory to the image. It's the most incredible feeling to bring someone into the scene and having them know what it's all about, something they wouldn't had we not sat down and talked about it.

I love that.
01/07/2022 03:30:21 PM · #16
Yes, it's the comments like those - not necessarily a suggestion but any comment that shoots me off in a different direction that ends up feeling more "right" to me - that keep me coming back. That and the very occasional image that I KNOW I would never ever have thought to take that ends up being immensely satisfying to me for some reason.

And btw, I suggested you look at a flip, too :)
01/07/2022 06:45:49 PM · #17
Thanks Wendy, I'm glad my little comment helped. I didn't try it before suggesting to flip, just thought it might work better. In fact now, after looking at both and comparing, the path in flipped image indeed feels longer, less compressed, perhaps because when the eye moves from left to right, the brain also associates it with moving from near to far, better "appreciates" the perspective and virtually extends the image. At least, that's my naive explanation. :)
Originally posted by oldbimmercoupe:

Our culture reads from left to right so I get it. But art neednít follow that. It is the artistís call. Iím left handed so saw it as great composition. Some cultures read right to left or even vertical. Why ask why?
Of course it is the artist's call, and not an absolute rule. But as with the proverbial rule of thirds, it really works more often than not, and when you break it, there usually should be a specific artistic reason for that. FWIW, I am left-handed too, but I still read from left to right :).
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