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04/02/2021 12:50:55 AM · #1
This is the stats:
Avg (all users): 5.7714
Avg (participants): 4.8333
Avg (non-participants): 6.2609


for this image:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

1.43 difference! It must be a new record.
04/02/2021 03:39:50 AM · #2
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

This is the stats:
Avg (all users): 5.7714
Avg (participants): 4.8333
Avg (non-participants): 6.2609


for this image:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

1.43 difference! It must be a new record.

There's something curious in this. Moreover me, you and hajeka are the only to have received a "2" in this challenge; maybe someone loves us :)
04/02/2021 04:23:24 AM · #3
Margaret, there are probably a bunch of voters like me who felt that your image was not so much an "artful overlay" but more of a "composite image". For me, 1 and 5 were the best at meeting the challenge of the ones on the front page. I thought the 2nd-place image was missing the point also: it's not an "overlay" to me, it's a "composite".

And so it goes :-)
04/02/2021 04:45:31 AM · #4
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Margaret, there are probably a bunch of voters like me who felt that your image was not so much an "artful overlay" but more of a "composite image". For me, 1 and 5 were the best at meeting the challenge of the ones on the front page. I thought the 2nd-place image was missing the point also: it's not an "overlay" to me, it's a "composite".

And so it goes :-)

Agree entirely, that's why I expected that both participants and non-participants would be in agreement but the opposite happened and that is a mystery to me.
04/02/2021 06:36:06 AM · #5
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Margaret, there are probably a bunch of voters like me who felt that your image was not so much an "artful overlay" but more of a "composite image". For me, 1 and 5 were the best at meeting the challenge of the ones on the front page. I thought the 2nd-place image was missing the point also: it's not an "overlay" to me, it's a "composite".

And so it goes :-)

Agree entirely, that's why I expected that both participants and non-participants would be in agreement but the opposite happened and that is a mystery to me.

I'd expect that the "participants" actually put some thought into what an "artful overlay" might actually BE, and some of the non-participants didn't even CARE and just voted on the pretty picture :-)
04/02/2021 07:02:23 AM · #6
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

This is the stats:
Avg (all users): 5.7714
Avg (participants): 4.8333
Avg (non-participants): 6.2609


for this image:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

1.43 difference! It must be a new record.


With only 35 votes in total and 26 participants in the challenge, my guess is that most of the votes are participants. The average of non participants is an average from a much smaller number of votes and therefore more easily affected by one or two exceptional votes. I would not conclude anything from those numbers.

Message edited by author 2021-04-02 07:09:29.
04/02/2021 07:22:32 AM · #7
Originally posted by willem:

Originally posted by MargaretNet:

This is the stats:
Avg (all users): 5.7714
Avg (participants): 4.8333
Avg (non-participants): 6.2609


for this image:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3194/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1260224.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

1.43 difference! It must be a new record.


With only 35 votes in total and 26 participants in the challenge, my guess is that most of the votes are participants. The average of non participants is an average from a much smaller number of votes and therefore more easily affected by one or two exceptional votes. I would not conclude anything from those numbers.


Actually it looks to be the other way around. When I try to get from those score to whole numbers, I see it must be 23 votes from non-participants and 12 from participants.
23* 6.2609 = 144
12 * 4.8333 = 58
23+12=35
(144+58)/35=5.7714
So the effect from votes deviating from the mean is much larger for participants than for non-participants. And then taking into account what Bear_Music said .....
04/02/2021 08:24:49 AM · #8
Originally posted by willem:


Actually it looks to be the other way around. When I try to get from those score to whole numbers, I see it must be 23 votes from non-participants and 12 from participants.

That doesn't feel right. So you're saying only 12 participants (out of 26 that submitted entries) voted?
04/02/2021 08:59:01 AM · #9
Quite possible. Some people have stated that they never vote on challenges they've entered.
04/02/2021 10:15:03 AM · #10
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by willem:


Actually it looks to be the other way around. When I try to get from those score to whole numbers, I see it must be 23 votes from non-participants and 12 from participants.

That doesn't feel right. So you're saying only 12 participants (out of 26 that submitted entries) voted?


yes, in order to get from 4.8333 to round numbers it has to be a multiple of 6.
And to get from 6.2609 to a round number 23 is the first good fit.
The total for 35 then also adds up.
Below is the table with multiplications rounded to two digits. You can see numbers with the double zero decimals. (sorry for the messy formatting)

I am also amazed that only 12 of the 26 participants actually voted in the challenge.

4.8333 6.2609 5.7714

1 4.83 6.26 5.77
2 9.67 12.52 11.54
3 14.50 18.78 17.31
4 19.33 25.04 23.09
5 24.17 31.30 28.86
6 29.00 37.57 34.63
7 33.83 43.83 40.40
8 38.67 50.09 46.17
9 43.50 56.35 51.94
10 48.33 62.61 57.71
11 53.17 68.87 63.49
12 58.00 75.13 69.26
13 62.83 81.39 75.03
14 67.67 87.65 80.80
15 72.50 93.91 86.57
16 77.33 100.17 92.34
17 82.17 106.44 98.11
18 87.00 112.70 103.89
19 91.83 118.96 109.66
20 96.67 125.22 115.43
21 101.50 131.48 121.20
22 106.33 137.74 126.97
23 111.17 144.00 132.74
24 116.00 150.26 138.51
25 120.83 156.52 144.29
26 125.67 162.78 150.06
27 130.50 169.04 155.83
28 135.33 175.31 161.60
29 140.17 181.57 167.37
30 145.00 187.83 173.14
31 149.83 194.09 178.91
32 154.67 200.35 184.68
33 159.50 206.61 190.46
34 164.33 212.87 196.23
35 169.17 219.13 202.00

Message edited by author 2021-04-02 10:16:49.
04/02/2021 10:49:50 AM · #11
There's a pretty simple mathematical formula to work this out. Willem's figures are correct.
04/02/2021 11:09:37 AM · #12
I must admit I am shocked that only 12 of 26 participants voted. I know one of those does not vote on the challenges she enters :) but what about the others? To me entering and not voting at all is not playing this game in a fair way. At least that one participant compensates in a big way by doing a lot of commenting (thanks! :) but what about the others? Do you vote on challenges you did not enter? If you do that's fair enough but if you don't vote and don't comment at all, just plug in your images and expect others to do the work that is really not nice :(

PS I admit I am currently not voting and not commenting but I have already entered a few challenges. I promise I will vote on at least as many challenges as I enter :)
04/02/2021 11:19:44 AM · #13
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

I must admit I am shocked that only 12 of 26 participants voted. I know one of those does not vote on the challenges she enters :) but what about the others? To me entering and not voting at all is not playing this game in a fair way. At least that one participant compensates in a big way by doing a lot of commenting (thanks! :) but what about the others? Do you vote on challenges you did not enter? If you do that's fair enough but if you don't vote and don't comment at all, just plug in your images and expect others to do the work that is really not nice :(

PS I admit I am currently not voting and not commenting but I have already entered a few challenges. I promise I will vote on at least as many challenges as I enter :)

In this challenge I didn't vote cause I was very disappointed for the voting trend :)
04/02/2021 11:33:17 AM · #14
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

I must admit I am shocked that only 12 of 26 participants voted. I know one of those does not vote on the challenges she enters :) but what about the others? To me entering and not voting at all is not playing this game in a fair way. At least that one participant compensates in a big way by doing a lot of commenting (thanks! :) but what about the others? Do you vote on challenges you did not enter? If you do that's fair enough but if you don't vote and don't comment at all, just plug in your images and expect others to do the work that is really not nice :(

PS I admit I am currently not voting and not commenting but I have already entered a few challenges. I promise I will vote on at least as many challenges as I enter :)

I just voted on the current 4 challenges, 16 to go :)
04/02/2021 12:04:03 PM · #15
What Iíve been saying for awhile... what is a challenge if the participants donít vote?
Iíll never understand how one can feel good about winning if they didnít rate the competition. What if no participants voted? Ha!
But Iíve basically given up preaching to the choir. I understand that everyone has an opinion and mine is not very popular.

For the record, I was a non participating voter in this challenge.
04/02/2021 12:33:57 PM · #16
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Margaret, there are probably a bunch of voters like me who felt that your image was not so much an "artful overlay" but more of a "composite image".

Looking at the image, this is my view.
This squarely falls into composite territory.
04/02/2021 12:47:17 PM · #17
I did not participate during the past month by submitting in any of the challenges or by doing any voting, but I can say: if I enter then I always vote and often comment.
Usually I also vote and comment in challenges that I don't participate in, depends on time available.
To me, just submitting and waiting for the points, does not make sense at all.
04/02/2021 12:53:24 PM · #18
Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Margaret, there are probably a bunch of voters like me who felt that your image was not so much an "artful overlay" but more of a "composite image".

Looking at the image, this is my view.
This squarely falls into composite territory.

Yes, I agree.

As a reminder I repeat that the issue I raised was the difference between the very harsh votes of participants and the much higher votes of non participants, and not just on my entry, although my entry had the "privilege" of the highest difference.
04/02/2021 12:55:20 PM · #19
I'm pretty accustomed to getting a Brown, but not with a score of 5+ ... also not sure why people thought it was "below average" for this topic ... :-(
04/02/2021 12:55:51 PM · #20
Originally posted by willem:

I did not participate during the past month by submitting in any of the challenges or by doing any voting, but I can say: if I enter then I always vote and often comment.
Usually I also vote and comment in challenges that I don't participate in, depends on time available.
To me, just submitting and waiting for the points, does not make sense at all.

Yes, it would be nice if more DPCers started to "really" participate.
04/02/2021 09:56:55 PM · #21
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I'm pretty accustomed to getting a Brown, but not with a score of 5+ ... also not sure why people thought it was "below average" for this topic ... :-(


I gave it a 4. I just didn't like it. For me the challenge was about combining two images, plain and simple. Had there been no description, I might have felt differently. But the description said we could do just about anything we wanted provided that no more than two images were involved. So the "texture overlay" part got lost in translation on this entrant and voter. I figured that Mark (others suggested this was really a Mark Wiley challenge) takes two images, lays one over the other, merges, and basically erases whatever he doesn't like of the one underneath. That's what a composite using only two files does. Sooooo . . . I voted every single entry as if it met the challenge, trusting the entrants to have used only two files and figuring SC would DQ anyone who used more.
04/03/2021 03:40:43 AM · #22
I don't know how much Mark Wiley removes in editing but that effect can be achieved in camera without erasing anything. I did it for my entry in the Double Exposure challenge way back in 2016.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2333/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1186080.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2333/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1186080.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The key is to have a white background in one image so that it erases all unwanted elements in the other one.

As I recall my attempts to achieve the same result in post processing weren't as good, but maybe that's because I didn't try hard enough.
04/03/2021 09:37:56 AM · #23
When, occasionally, I forget to vote, I feel guilty. This is because I know that the site thrives on participation. I always vote when I enter a challenge and, not to be critical, am perturbed to discover that some entrants decline to do so. Okay, critical. I feel that one should be able to lift oneself away from an ego-based perspective and just evaluate people's efforts. It's simple courtesy, in my opinion. Sometimes I don't vote on a challenge if I'm unsure how I should judge the entries . This happens when photography techniques are the topic and I don't really understand what I'm looking for. And sometimes I find a challenge topic annoying, though I may be unsure exactly why.
I haven't been entering many challenges. Often I feel that my technical abilities are insufficient to comply with the description. A good part of this is that I haven't taken the time and effort to familiarize myself with Photoshop. That's certainly on me. Also, I don't have an indoor lighting component in my repertoire. Again, on me. Also, though I take my camera along when walking my dog, I very often come home without having taken any shots. I'm so bored with my neighborhood by now, and rarely get to engage in more interesting forays. That's partly due to personal considerations with regards to travel, even outside my neighborhood, yet I also attribute my boredom to lack of imagination. There's always something to explore if you open up and look for it. Finally, I can be lazy and am a "great" procrastinator. Again, again, again....
Commenting is fun, but the amount of time it takes is often unavailable. My ideal would be to comment on most photos, some of them expansively. I've tried to be more terse, so to comment on more images, but find it difficult to curtail my verbosity. Also, although it's probably more helpful to be constructively critical, I prefer to celebrate people's artistry and effort. I'll try harder to comment more. I know how much I enjoy getting comments. Thank you to all who do take the time and make the effort.
04/03/2021 11:55:44 AM · #24
Originally posted by streetpigeon:

When, occasionally, I forget to vote, I feel guilty. This is because I know that the site thrives on participation. I always vote when I enter a challenge and, not to be critical, am perturbed to discover that some entrants decline to do so. Okay, critical. I feel that one should be able to lift oneself away from an ego-based perspective and just evaluate people's efforts. It's simple courtesy, in my opinion. Sometimes I don't vote on a challenge if I'm unsure how I should judge the entries . This happens when photography techniques are the topic and I don't really understand what I'm looking for. And sometimes I find a challenge topic annoying, though I may be unsure exactly why.
I haven't been entering many challenges. Often I feel that my technical abilities are insufficient to comply with the description. A good part of this is that I haven't taken the time and effort to familiarize myself with Photoshop. That's certainly on me. Also, I don't have an indoor lighting component in my repertoire. Again, on me. Also, though I take my camera along when walking my dog, I very often come home without having taken any shots. I'm so bored with my neighborhood by now, and rarely get to engage in more interesting forays. That's partly due to personal considerations with regards to travel, even outside my neighborhood, yet I also attribute my boredom to lack of imagination. There's always something to explore if you open up and look for it. Finally, I can be lazy and am a "great" procrastinator. Again, again, again....
Commenting is fun, but the amount of time it takes is often unavailable. My ideal would be to comment on most photos, some of them expansively. I've tried to be more terse, so to comment on more images, but find it difficult to curtail my verbosity. Also, although it's probably more helpful to be constructively critical, I prefer to celebrate people's artistry and effort. I'll try harder to comment more. I know how much I enjoy getting comments. Thank you to all who do take the time and make the effort.


wow. that is exactly my case. except, alas, I have no dog.
04/03/2021 07:32:59 PM · #25
Rich ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' streetpigeon .. i love reading all your comments after rollover .. they are so interesting and thoughtful .. often i will see a photo in a totally different light to how i saw it before i read your comment ..
and i can totally sympathize with you .. especially this bit .. i could have written it myself ..
"Also, I don't have an indoor lighting component in my repertoire. Again, on me. Also, though I take my camera along when walking my dog, I very often come home without having taken any shots. I'm so bored with my neighborhood by now, and rarely get to engage in more interesting forays. That's partly due to personal considerations with regards to travel, even outside my neighborhood, yet I also attribute my boredom to lack of imagination. There's always something to explore if you open up and look for it. Finally, I can be lazy and am a "great" procrastinator. Again, again, again...." ..

reasons i wont bore you all with here mean that the possibility of taking photos anywhere other than around my house are few and far between ..

i do however try and comment as much as i can .. and we are on the same page Rich "I prefer to celebrate people's artistry and effort. I'll try harder to comment more. I know how much I enjoy getting comments. Thank you to all who do take the time and make the effort." ..

anyway .. interested in ppl's interpretation of the recent artful overlay challenge .. as in what constitutes an overlay and what constitutes a composite ..
taking into account the challenge description .. "This challenge is all about creative visualization. "Layering" of images can produce some stunningly beautiful work. Your task is to take two images during the challenge time frame and combine them into a single image in post processing."
i would have thought that an overlay or composite .. involving only two photos .. would pretty much mean the same thing in this challenge .. ??

edit to say .. layering is different to adding a texture .. :)

Message edited by author 2021-04-03 20:26:43.
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