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10/09/2020 04:46:30 PM · #1
Hi. I had marked this image of ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Pascal's as a fav as I really liked the look of the border.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1693/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1049462.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1693/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1049462.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Unfortunately it got DQ'd (thread here).

Since then the rules have changed and I was curious if a similar look could be accomplished legally today.
I was going to submit the following image to a challenge and ran it past SC first ... they found it to be probably a non-legal edit.

What do you think?

I took the original image, blurred the background with Gaussian blur. Mirrored it using an overlay to get it two-sided.
Took a copy of the finished image (in a slightly smaller size), and tossed it on top of the blurred background - thereby getting a border effect with the same color palletes.

The blurred image as a background, then with a texture overlay.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255118.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255118.jpg', '/') + 1) . ', ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255119.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255119.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The original image placed back on top of the blurred background.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255120.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255120.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Here's what I ended up entering (using a color gradient instead).
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3092/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1254015.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/3000-3999/3092/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1254015.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
10/11/2020 08:37:03 AM · #2
There is only a single mention of borders in the entire rule set, and it states, "You may not... add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing". If I read the rules clearly then a border, no matter the type (except if it can be produced in-camera), is not permissible in anything but Extended unless a special rule allowing its inclusion is a part of the challenge.

I'm not saying I'm right, but I do not see anything in the common and standard rules that allow for the techniques necessary, particularly as you introduce that hard line around the image. But it's not like the SC and I haven't disagreed on rules interpretations in the past. :)
10/11/2020 10:35:14 AM · #3
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

There is only a single mention of borders in the entire rule set, and it states, "You may not... add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing". If I read the rules clearly then a border, no matter the type (except if it can be produced in-camera), is not permissible in anything but Extended unless a special rule allowing its inclusion is a part of the challenge.

I'd disagree with that (not surprisingly): "You may not... add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing". The bolded part at least implies that entries may have borders.
10/11/2020 12:30:39 PM · #4
Yeah - It wasn't the use of a border that seemed to be the issue. Here's the feedback I rec'd from SC (in general) on this ...

"I'm actually not sure if that one would be DQ'd today. The prohibition on "artwork" in borders still applies ... <snip>"

"<snip> ... There are several issues that intersect. My gut feeling is that if you use an image to create an altered version of itself and then incorporate that into your work in any way, that would be illegal in Standard."

Message edited by author 2020-10-11 12:30:59.
10/11/2020 12:51:40 PM · #5
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Yeah - It wasn't the use of a border that seemed to be the issue. Here's the feedback I rec'd from SC (in general) on this ...

"I'm actually not sure if that one would be DQ'd today. The prohibition on "artwork" in borders still applies ... <snip>"

"<snip> ... There are several issues that intersect. My gut feeling is that if you use an image to create an altered version of itself and then incorporate that into your work in any way, that would be illegal in Standard."

For me the disqualifying aspect is the use of two versions of the photo -- essentially making a composite image.

Otherwise, I'm a frequent borderer --for prints it allows fitting to a standard print size without cropping.

Borders have been DPC-legal (other than for Minimal or the equivalent) with the restrictions that you can't use other artwork ("clip art" or another image) and that it must be distinguishable from the photo -- you can't use it to extend the background. Keylines, solid, gradients are ll legal. You can even select the outer 30-or-so pixels and darken, lighten, and/or blur them to create a border based on the subject, which would be quite similar to the effect you wanted to create with the blurred and enlarged copy of the picture.
10/11/2020 02:10:15 PM · #6
Originally posted by GeneralE:

... You can even select the outer 30-or-so pixels and darken, lighten, and/or blur them to create a border based on the subject, which would be quite similar to the effect you wanted to create with the blurred and enlarged copy of the picture.


Ok. I just tried what you mentioned. I can select 30 pixels and blur to create an outside border within the same image. However, using PSP, I've not figured out how to make an inline thin border line. To mimic the same thing I did a crop, paste as new image, border. Then took the cropped selection and brought it back as a new layer on top of the image I cropped from (reset the original back to pre-crop state). Does that work as a legit edit?

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255158.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30049/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1255158.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
10/11/2020 03:00:37 PM · #7
I haven't used PSP in years ... in my ancient version of Photoshop there is an option to to contract a selection in the menu, or one can save the selection as a channel and then scale it to change the size of the selection, then apply a stroke.

Or, if you were able to create a 30-pixel wide selection around the outside to apply the blur, you should be able to invert the selection to stroke for the keyline.
10/11/2020 03:13:58 PM · #8
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I haven't used PSP in years ... in my ancient version of Photoshop there is an option to to contract a selection in the menu, or one can save the selection as a channel and then scale it to change the size of the selection, then apply a stroke.

Or, if you were able to create a 30-pixel wide selection around the outside to apply the blur, you should be able to invert the selection to stroke for the keyline.

Yeah, tried that (invert selection) ... didn't see any method for applying keyline. So ... the crop, add borderline, paste back into full size image ... legal?
10/11/2020 03:33:37 PM · #9
Can't you stroke that inverted selection?

Anyway, your last effort is at least a "more legal" workaround -- I think the biggest issue with the original was re-sizing the part for the border, making it a composite of two differing images, rather than a single image selectively-edited.

Personally, I'm all for stretching the boundaries of border-creation -- sometimes that can be more fun than making the photo itself.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/338/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_176586.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/338/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_176586.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
10/11/2020 04:52:00 PM · #10
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Personally, I'm all for stretching the boundaries of border-creation -- sometimes that can be more fun than making the photo itself.

So am I, actually. I think I'm even in favor of allowing "clipart" as borders, although there's a gray area there, unfortunately. It would be great if we could allow fancy gilded Gothic frames, shiny chrome frames, all sorts of stuff. BUT if we do that, where do we draw the line between "borders" and "composite images"?

To give an obviously extreme example, suppose I went and photographed the famous church in Taos, New Mexico that Ansel Adams did so well. Then suppose I used HIS image as the "border" and CROPPED my image down to just the door and pasted it over his door with a nice little keyline?

Obviously, this isn't what we ant to permit. But when does "other people's work" stop being clipart and become a "pirated work of someone else's"? And when does a border stop being a "border" and become a "subject"?

This is the kind of thinking that makes us realize it's simpler to keep the lid on tight? Or is it really?

Opinions?
10/11/2020 05:11:18 PM · #11
@Bear ... one way of considering; if the same image is used for the border and challenge entry, then yes / legal.
10/11/2020 05:11:47 PM · #12
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Can't you stroke that inverted selection?

Have not figured that out, no.
10/11/2020 06:45:05 PM · #13
Originally posted by glad2badad:

@Bear ... one way of considering; if the same image is used for the border and challenge entry, then yes / legal.

Consider three approaches to the problem:

1. Process entire image blurred. Process a new iteration of it, not blurred. Shrink the not-blurred image and superimpose it on the blurred version to have the blurred border.

2. As above, but instead of shrinking the second iteration, crop it to a smaller size.

3. Process entire image as desired. Make a smaller, central selection and invert that to get a border selection. Blur the selected border.

***************

Of these options:

3 is clearly legal: there's no restriction to selecting and blurring portions of your image.

2 is essentially the same as 3, and it is also legal.

1, however is clearly NOT legal, because it involves superimposing two different-sized versions of the same image. To understand why this is the case, bear in mind that we have NO limitations on layering modes, so if this technique were allowed people could use it to difference-blend stacked iterations of their image to produce strange results.


10/11/2020 09:53:57 PM · #14
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

@Bear ... one way of considering; if the same image is used for the border and challenge entry, then yes / legal.

Consider three approaches to the problem:

1. Process entire image blurred. Process a new iteration of it, not blurred. Shrink the not-blurred image and superimpose it on the blurred version to have the blurred border.

2. As above, but instead of shrinking the second iteration, crop it to a smaller size.

3. Process entire image as desired. Make a smaller, central selection and invert that to get a border selection. Blur the selected border.

***************

Of these options:

3 is clearly legal: there's no restriction to selecting and blurring portions of your image.

2 is essentially the same as 3, and it is also legal.

1, however is clearly NOT legal, because it involves superimposing two different-sized versions of the same image. To understand why this is the case, bear in mind that we have NO limitations on layering modes, so if this technique were allowed people could use it to difference-blend stacked iterations of their image to produce strange results.


Oh, I do like the possibilities posed by #3. Wha ta shame it's the one that's not legal.
10/11/2020 10:38:33 PM · #15
Originally posted by jomari:

Oh, I do like the possibilities posed by #3. Wha ta shame it's the one that's not legal.

1's the illegal one. 2&3 are OK.
10/11/2020 11:16:36 PM · #16
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by jomari:

Oh, I do like the possibilities posed by #3. Wha ta shame it's the one that's not legal.

1's the illegal one. 2&3 are OK.


Oh, oops. It was #1 that appealed to me.
10/12/2020 12:21:53 AM · #17
Originally posted by jomari:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by jomari:

Oh, I do like the possibilities posed by #3. Wha ta shame it's the one that's not legal.

1's the illegal one. 2&3 are OK.


Oh, oops. It was #1 that appealed to me.

It's legal in Extended editing -- you can try it there. :-)
10/12/2020 03:24:36 AM · #18
You could draw a rectangle as a "shape" and stroke that without a fill. That gives you a "border".
10/12/2020 05:53:38 AM · #19
This is the look I'm going for, but not quite so bold (wide). Blurred color scheme that matches the image as the border.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1693/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1049462.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1693/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1049462.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
10/13/2020 06:39:00 AM · #20
just a few lines..
discussion, disagreement, disappointment...
Photography, passion, joy, creation, rules, punishment, disqualification, Guantanamo...
we can now start over once more, discuss again, agree and disagree, everyone can say everything...
bla bla bla bla
...
but long ago someone, an artist, had replied
...
so have a look at the old post of ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Judi (3rd page)
...
bla bla bla again
...
an image in borders, an image in chains
...
and I don't even ever added Judi as a favorite photographer, neither her images...
its because I always remember her artworks, I can't forget her, no need to add her...


Message edited by author 2020-10-13 06:48:03.
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