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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> So now not NON ribboners Winners
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04/16/2020 12:02:38 PM · #1
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Want to make this about art?

It is.
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Want to make this about appreciation in the now?

It is.
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

I'm perfectly fine with that except for that everything else n this place is driven by your score history. It doesn't track your average finish as a percentage of the field, it tracks your average score and sticks it at the top of your profile. It doesn't show you your top 5 finishing images based on ribbon color, it shows your top 5 scores regardless if they won or not. Look at mine - 3 of my top 5 didn't even win, but they scored high.

You need a system whereby you *can* differentiate, where the people can apply their designation of value to the image relative to the others.....hence scoring. But that's simply a way to delineate images and express your opinion in an efficient manner. You can comment on top of that.
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

If you want to have this not be about a number then throw everything that has to do with historical scores out the window and make it the vapor that you want it to be. I am more than OK with that. But until then, as has been pointed out by the links about, the number means significantly more than you all want to admit. Because it's placed out there as a carrot. Heck, if it wasn't then why would there a persistent World's Tiniest Violin thread?!

There's a difference between making it all about the numbers, which seems to be your perspective, and those of us who use the numbering system within its limitations to keep the site moving on a regular basis through the challenges. Believe it or not, some of us love the numbers some weeks and couldn't care less the next week. Wild, huh???

It is an index to be used however you see fit. Personally, I love the weird anomalies. My highest score is not a Blue. The highest site recorded score is certainly not a world class image, yet there are literally hundreds here that are.
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

It's not like I'm too dense to understand the ethereal nature of scores for some of you. I'm just saying you want to believe that they mean nothing in a place built around them and nothing but them. So until that goes away I will stand by my words.

So you've never gotten a "Meh" score on an image you really liked and gotten a couple comments from people you respect and admire that made that score irrelevant? That's a seriously solid, momentous DPC thing for me. That is the kind of thing you learn about scores.
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

And for Pete's sake, if this was all about appreciating and not scoring imagine all the comments - like there were in this challenge.

Whose case are you trying to make with this?
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

As you sit in your high chair and stare down at the hopeless masses as you're so painfully forced to ascribe a numeric value to a picture (something you have done nearly 200,000 times), why not tell them why their work is so "mediocre"? Because a lot of us came here to hear it.

Sure isn't likely you might see the point of his post or anything. Perhaps...... You might look at someone else's perspective and not assume everyone's is the same as yours.



Message edited by Bear_Music - Content edited to remove finger pointing and ad hominem remarks.
04/08/2020 01:01:14 PM · #2
:))))
Nice to see you back :)
04/08/2020 12:29:43 PM · #3
After having read this entire thread, I'm left with one thought: Dont ever change, DPC. Dont ever change. :)
04/07/2020 10:33:07 AM · #4
Boy oh boy.
04/07/2020 09:46:51 AM · #5
And this is where the diehards are confounded by the obvious - something I am thankful Ecce_Signum, GinaRothfels, glad2badad, marnet and others manage to grasp.

Want to make this about art? Want to make this about appreciation in the now? I'm perfectly fine with that except for that everything else n this place is driven by your score history. It doesn't track your average finish as a percentage of the field, it tracks your average score and sticks it at the top of your profile. It doesn't show you your top 5 finishing images based on ribbon color, it shows your top 5 scores regardless if they won or not. Look at mine - 3 of my top 5 didn't even win, but they scored high.

If you want to have this not be about a number then throw everything that has to do with historical scores out the window and make it the vapor that you want it to be. I am more than OK with that. But until then, as has been pointed out by the links about, the number means significantly more than you all want to admit. Because it's placed out there as a carrot. Heck, if it wasn't then why would there a persistent World's Tiniest Violin thread?!

It's not like I'm too dense to understand the ethereal nature of scores for some of you. I'm just saying you want to believe that they mean nothing in a place built around them and nothing but them. So until that goes away I will stand by my words.

And for Pete's sake, if this was all about appreciating and not scoring imagine all the comments - like there were in this challenge. As you sit in your high chair and stare down at the hopeless masses as you're so painfully forced to ascribe a numeric value to a picture (something you have done nearly 200,000 times), why not tell them why their work is so "mediocre"? Because a lot of us came here to hear it. You can't have it both ways and not expect the bright shiny object that supposedly means nothing not to mean a whole lot to people when it's all that's there.

Message edited by author 2020-04-07 10:02:19.
04/06/2020 08:43:52 PM · #6
Originally posted by Lydia:

Originally posted by pointandshoot:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

And there's this too. Except I don't know why it was felt necessary back in the day to have a 'lowest' as well.

Maybe to remind us of why we do what we do.
a poet none of us knew.


I think that I don't understand.

I LOVE it that Ashley was into photography and it helped her in her very, VERY rough spot.
I really hope that it helped her and that she's doing really well now.

But, what does that have to do with scores? What did I miss, please?

I'd love to know how Ashley is now, if you have info on her!


Indeed, what does it have to do with scores? What does Ashley's poetry have to do with scores? Her photography got low scores, so it must not have been good. This is the standard that Jake wants so hard to maintain. I mean, look at the number one highest rated photo on the site. Look at that billiard ball. It stands over us like a monument to greatness. We must never compromise these principles, not for the photography of Ashley Trent. And where is her poetry? Why does she never show us her poetry's scores? Could it be that her poetry is also in need of improvement? Maybe her poem needed more focus. Maybe her poem needed to stand to the right a little bit so a flagpole didn't come out of its head. She needs to know these things! Maybe her poem is too much of a snapshot. She needs to hit the ball on the mark... get it? The ball... the BILLIARD BALL?? it's like a metaphor. now THAT is poetry. I can't find Ashley's poems anywhere. Perhaps the poetry editors have given her the brown ribbon. Just imagine how terrible it would have been if someone made her feel good about her poems for a minute. Luckily the world is full of Jakes to maintain the standards of integrity. Heaven forfend some Juliet come along and start a thread to make Ashleys feel good about themselves and tell us what they learned! If such a thing were to happen, we could only hope that a Jake will swoop in and remind them even in this tiny flimsy sanctuary of their mediocrity. It is the only way they will learn. I'm sure somewhere out there, under a pile of Jakes, Ashley Trent is ready to blossom like that rose beneath the April snow, and write her very own Wasteland just when the world needs it most, some time this week probably.

And what did Juliet do, what was her sin? Not handing out dicks, no. Her true sin was listening to the mediocre, letting them speak... thinking she might have something to learn from them Regardless Of Scores. After all, this thread was originally for comments about comments, and had nothing to do with scores. We can't have that.

Imagine photography and poetry without scores! I mean don't imagine it. Don't you dare.

04/05/2020 10:58:14 PM · #7
Originally posted by pointandshoot:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

And there's this too. Except I don't know why it was felt necessary back in the day to have a 'lowest' as well.

Maybe to remind us of why we do what we do.
a poet none of us knew.


I think that I don't understand.

I LOVE it that Ashley was into photography and it helped her in her very, VERY rough spot.
I really hope that it helped her and that she's doing really well now.

But, what does that have to do with scores? What did I miss, please?

I'd love to know how Ashley is now, if you have info on her!

04/05/2020 10:10:56 PM · #8
Originally posted by glad2badad:

And there's this too. Except I don't know why it was felt necessary back in the day to have a 'lowest' as well.

Maybe to remind us of why we do what we do.
a poet none of us knew.
04/05/2020 12:31:50 PM · #9
Originally posted by glad2badad:


And there's this too. Except I don't know why it was felt necessary back in the day to have a 'lowest' as well.

ETA - This also.


+1

I've often described DPC to others as being sort of like the game of golf. You get your average and no matter how high or low your average is, if you beat it, you win!

I vote every image according to itself, not compared to other entries in a challenge. (Why should an excellent image not get an excellent score just because other people also entered excellent images?) Occasionally, I'll bump one I really like a point over the rest on the second go 'round if I feel strongly about it being better than the others.

04/05/2020 12:26:40 PM · #10
Originally posted by glad2badad:

ETA - This also.

I agree, it should list only DPCers who entered at least 100 challenges (or a similar number)
04/05/2020 12:18:59 PM · #11
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:

At the risk of having my head bitten off again I'm in agreement with Gina. If the individual challenge score means no more than a way of showing placement in just that single challenge then why is the average vote received/given displayed on your profile page? Surely that is meaningless?

I too use my average vote received to gauge my progress (or lack of) over time. Maybe I've been doing this wrong all this time?

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by Venser:

Personally I think you're putting too much stock in the actual numbers. They're meaningless. Their only function is to order positions of the photos within a singular challenge, which they did in this challenge.


I disagree. I regard scores as a way to rate my photos against my performance in the past. My goal is to one day better my PB - a score of 6.9849, which I achieved back in August 2002. However I don't want to do it with an inferior photo.


And there's this too. Except I don't know why it was felt necessary back in the day to have a 'lowest' as well.

ETA - This also.

Message edited by author 2020-04-05 12:20:46.
04/05/2020 12:10:08 PM · #12
I have been duly flogged and my hut semi burnt down by Bear, in the loveliest way possible =)

=)~
04/05/2020 11:52:05 AM · #13
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

And not for nothing but Iíve never pulled punches here but not once did I call someone a dick, even when they deserved it.

Just saw the OP. You're right, nobody shoulda called anybody a "dick". It's a little late to unwind the string, but I'll pop off a PM to the perp :-)

04/05/2020 06:57:11 AM · #14
At the risk of having my head bitten off again I'm in agreement with Gina. If the individual challenge score means no more than a way of showing placement in just that single challenge then why is the average vote received/given displayed on your profile page? Surely that is meaningless?

I too use my average vote received to gauge my progress (or lack of) over time. Maybe I've been doing this wrong all this time?

Originally posted by GinaRothfels:

Originally posted by Venser:

Personally I think you're putting too much stock in the actual numbers. They're meaningless. Their only function is to order positions of the photos within a singular challenge, which they did in this challenge.


I disagree. I regard scores as a way to rate my photos against my performance in the past. My goal is to one day better my PB - a score of 6.9849, which I achieved back in August 2002. However I don't want to do it with an inferior photo.
04/05/2020 06:41:48 AM · #15
Originally posted by Venser:

Personally I think you're putting too much stock in the actual numbers. They're meaningless. Their only function is to order positions of the photos within a singular challenge, which they did in this challenge.


I disagree. I regard scores as a way to rate my photos against my performance in the past. My goal is to one day better my PB - a score of 6.9849, which I achieved back in August 2002. However I don't want to do it with an inferior photo.
04/04/2020 09:08:00 PM · #16
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

We vote 1 to 10 from "bad" to "good", NOT worst to best.

I vote best to worst in every challenge. Each challenge is it's own microcosm. I often hand out a one and ten in each and every challenge.

Personally I think you're putting too much stock in the actual numbers. They're meaningless. Their only function is to order positions of the photos within a singular challenge, which they did in this challenge.
04/04/2020 05:33:19 PM · #17
And not for nothing but Iíve never pulled punches here but not once did I call someone a dick, even when they deserved it.
04/04/2020 05:10:06 PM · #18
Originally posted by JulietNN:

I do not think I over voted at all. I took what I would have voted on a Free Study (which is ever harder) but gave out reasonable points, I believe. I scored as a normal challenge with the best begin first and the end being the worst scoring It is the same as the challenge Perseid Meteor Shower, very few entries, but higher scores.

I kinda think that this is being just mean. It is a singular challenge, and people had to vote , as they saw it, on the best entries. So what ever the score, for this singular challenge is deserved.

Stop this nonsense and stop making people feel bad about their scoring, scores, photos or placement. It is petty and honestly, at this point, I feel you are all belittling people and showing how petty and nasty you can be. Maybe tomorrow, I will fell different and regret what I just wrote and beat myself mentally up and feel ashamed that I spoke up. but , seriously, be nicer, patient, and all the other things I want to say, but Know I will regret saying by morning.

Stop being dicks.


This dick stands behind his words.

This isn't being mean, it's a nit I've had since month 1 here.

And FFS the FIRST thing I said is that this wasn't about the people in the challenge.

The first two comments after mine got my intent precisely, that in a world where our profiles show our top 5 scored images, an image that I would have struggled to give more than a 5 to now stands above the personal best of many more accomplished photographers. So again, does the top image in a challenge deserve a 10? You've said that your scoring was like that of a Free Study, and I agree that that's how it should have been scored. But if every image deserved a 4 thru 6 and you felt the need to bump one or more up then no, you didn't score it that way.

I GET adjusting scores to meet the challenge so maybe you rate your top photo and instead of rewarding mediocrity (and yes, every image in this was at best OK, and I've explained that in great detail to each entry - AND suggested ways in which they could improve) maybe giving the worst image a 1 or 2 when the best doesn't deserve more than a 6 isn't a crime, because it recognizes the talent of those who have done well enough to have been left out of this challenge.

When we pat folks on the back for personal bests then it should mean something. But in one fell swoop the voters in this challenge shat upon that. We vote 1 to 10 from "bad" to "good", NOT worst to best. You all chose a rightful winner, and with one small swap I am in total agreement with the finish. But you dumped on every decent photographer that you've never given an 8 thru 10 to during a normal Free Study because, as I said, the way many of you vote is incoherent at best.

Message edited by author 2020-04-04 17:11:04.
04/03/2020 10:58:51 AM · #19
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:

If everybody had voted in their normal 'style' I have no doubt the current standings would remain the same but with a more realistic final vote.

What's not realistic about the scores?
Compared to what?
Aren't entries only compared to their competition in any given challenge?

The entry with the highest score wins. Exactly what happened in this challenge, just like every other challenge.
04/03/2020 10:56:28 AM · #20
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Stop this nonsense and stop making people feel bad about their scoring, scores, photos or placement. It is petty and honestly, at this point, I feel you are all belittling people and showing how petty and nasty you can be. <snip>

Stop being dicks.

Yep. 100% agree.

Look, the scores don't mean sh*t from a numerical standpoint except for tabulations for placement.

I've been here for over 13 years and have somehow managed to obtain 20 ribbons. This score beat all mine.

So what?

The intent of this was to have give some people hope, let them feel like they have a chance, and just in general, since it was suggested in the community, have the community know that people care.

Nobody got hurt by this.......or if you did, figuratively speaking, maybe the community isn't the place to look for the cause.
04/03/2020 08:58:23 AM · #21
The idea behind your suggestion was to get more 'new' ribbon winners Juliet. This challenge came at an inopportune moment for all but I must applaud the number of commenters.

If everybody had voted in their normal 'style' I have no doubt the current standings would remain the same but with a more realistic final vote. Yes, for many the Blue is worthy of a 7.2 however I think it is wrong to call myself or Jake out for thinking differently and you are really doing exactly the same thing. Neither of us complained about your voting Juliet however, after reading the comments you openly gave your scores and thinking behind them.

Of course we all want the site to grow again, I just happen to fall in the camp of not thinking this is the best way forward but am often wrong and am happy it was trialled (and maybe again when the current climate eases?).

I also think some kind of 'mentoring' system might work whereby (say) a non ribbon winner requests help/guidance from one member in pool of volunteer 'ribbon hogs' (for want of a better name). They can give tips/advice etc but no actual editing of said images. Rather than for a single challenge it could be for a number of challenges or period of time?

As for being a dick Juliet, you know me better than you think ;)

Originally posted by JulietNN:

Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:

Yup, I have to agree with you there. Beats my PB and if they entered it into the Woodburytype challenge it would have got the blue (apparently).

I do understand the reasoning for this challenge (bad timing this time) and congrats to those who took part but as Jake says, voting should have been 'normal' not so over the top. I'm about to go look at some comments as I've not done that yet.

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

7.2597

I'm just going to leave that there, because for the life of me I cannot understand how you people score an image.

This isn't about the photographers in this challenge or their images, it's about those of you who stuck numbers on them. I know photographers who have busted their buns here in challenge after challenge and never gotten a 7 from you all. If they're not insulted and a little pissed off then they should be. For crying out loud, that's higher than the #2 image in the Hidden Gem 3000 challenge. I get voting within a set of expectations but my god there has to be some level of consistency in how you view a photo, doesn't there?!

Rant over.


I do not think I over voted at all. I took what I would have voted on a Free Study (which is ever harder) but gave out reasonable points, I believe. I scored as a normal challenge with the best begin first and the end being the worst scoring It is the same as the challenge Perseid Meteor Shower, very few entries, but higher scores.

I kinda think that this is being just mean. It is a singular challenge, and people had to vote , as they saw it, on the best entries. So what ever the score, for this singular challenge is deserved.

Stop this nonsense and stop making people feel bad about their scoring, scores, photos or placement. It is petty and honestly, at this point, I feel you are all belittling people and showing how petty and nasty you can be. Maybe tomorrow, I will fell different and regret what I just wrote and beat myself mentally up and feel ashamed that I spoke up. but , seriously, be nicer, patient, and all the other things I want to say, but Know I will regret saying by morning.

Stop being dicks.
04/03/2020 12:34:11 AM · #22
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:

Yup, I have to agree with you there. Beats my PB and if they entered it into the Woodburytype challenge it would have got the blue (apparently).

I do understand the reasoning for this challenge (bad timing this time) and congrats to those who took part but as Jake says, voting should have been 'normal' not so over the top. I'm about to go look at some comments as 've not done that yet.

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

7.2597

I'm just going to leave that there, because for the life of me I cannot understand how you people score an image.

This isn't about the photographers in this challenge or their images, it's about those of you who stuck numbers on them. I know photographers who have busted their buns here in challenge after challenge and never gotten a 7 from you all. If they're not insulted and a little pissed off then they should be. For crying out loud, that's higher than the #2 image in the Hidden Gem 3000 challenge. I get voting within a set of expectations but my god there has to be some level of consistency in how you view a photo, doesn't there?!

Rant over.


I do not think I over voted at all. I took what I would have voted on a Free Study (which is ever harder) but gave out reasonable points, I believe. I scored as a normal challenge with the best begin first and the end being the worst scoring It is the same as the challenge Perseid Meteor Shower, very few entries, but higher scores.

I kinda think that this is being just mean. It is a singular challenge, and people had to vote , as they saw it, on the best entries. So what ever the score, for this singular challenge is deserved.

Stop this nonsense and stop making people feel bad about their scoring, scores, photos or placement. It is petty and honestly, at this point, I feel you are all belittling people and showing how petty and nasty you can be. Maybe tomorrow, I will fell different and regret what I just wrote and beat myself mentally up and feel ashamed that I spoke up. but , seriously, be nicer, patient, and all the other things I want to say, but Know I will regret saying by morning.

Stop being dicks.
04/02/2020 10:40:54 PM · #23
I was extremely happy with the responses to my image. I have to admit that it wasn't what I wanted to post, but this virus thing has made the places I wanted to shoot unavailable. I guess it really made me think about the lighting, time of day to shoot, and more of what to consider before submitting an image. I got 20 reviews, and the hecklers I have to thank.
04/01/2020 02:01:19 PM · #24
Yup, I have to agree with you there. Beats my PB and if they entered it into the Woodburytype challenge it would have got the blue (apparently).

I do understand the reasoning for this challenge (bad timing this time) and congrats to those who took part but as Jake says, voting should have been 'normal' not so over the top. I'm about to go look at some comments as 've not done that yet.

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

7.2597

I'm just going to leave that there, because for the life of me I cannot understand how you people score an image.

This isn't about the photographers in this challenge or their images, it's about those of you who stuck numbers on them. I know photographers who have busted their buns here in challenge after challenge and never gotten a 7 from you all. If they're not insulted and a little pissed off then they should be. For crying out loud, that's higher than the #2 image in the Hidden Gem 3000 challenge. I get voting within a set of expectations but my god there has to be some level of consistency in how you view a photo, doesn't there?!

Rant over.
04/01/2020 01:53:20 PM · #25
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

7.2597

I'm just going to leave that there, because for the life of me I cannot understand how you people score an image.

Some people specifically stated in the comments that they were giving higher scores than they normally would have given those photos. I wasn't one of them.

The weird voting actually makes me glad I didn't enter the challenge.
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