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03/04/2020 11:34:47 AM · #1
Not sure why it popped into my head, but it seems (is) that the same people are on the front pages every week winning Ribbons. And absolutely Kudos for their outstanding work. But looking at it from another point of view, no one else get's a real chance against this.

There used to be a Master Challenge with people with 3 or ribbons got to enter. How about a challenge where any ribbon winners can not enter.

It sounds odd, but I remember the absolute joy of winning my 1st ribbon and it pushed me to try even harder to get another one, or at least improve. What if the ribbon winners , took a step back and wrote comments instead of entering on this Non Winners Ribbon Challenge.

I think, it could well lead to not many entries, in the 1st challenge, but I do believe it will encourage people to do more, especially if Ribbons winners actually gave out comments.

I have read so many times on FB and in private chats,

""What is the point of entering, when the same people win over and over again, I can not be bothered to enter, why try" And I think that is pretty sad and I can see their point of view too.

So why not try a 1 special all open challenge for non ribbons winners once a month for a trial period of 6 months and see what happens.

This was intended to be a learning site, and many multiply ribbon winners now o not add any info in their pictures, so why not try this.

(Let the arguments commence) =(



03/04/2020 11:42:30 AM · #2
I think it's a great idea.

Message edited by author 2020-03-04 11:45:01.
03/04/2020 11:53:22 AM · #3
I support it too (I need a break! :)
03/04/2020 11:56:17 AM · #4
Part of the reason I got so competitive here back a few years ago was wanting not to miss a Masters challenge - so I really was trying extra hard to get my first 3 ribbons!
So I can see a similar effect might with the challenge you suggest - since 3 photographers would be getting their first ribbons =). I Dig it.
ETA: as to not give out ribbons* (with an asterisk) perhaps a special / different set of virgin ribbons could be awarded ? LOL

Message edited by author 2020-03-04 12:17:00.
03/04/2020 11:59:17 AM · #5
Originally posted by JulietNN:

(Let the arguments commence) =(

Well, in past discussions of this idea I think most of the sentiment (including from non-ribboners) was that such an award would be de-valued by virtue of being obtained without facing the rest of the photographers.

And it seems to me that most challenges yield at least one less-familiar person on the front page ...
03/04/2020 12:10:19 PM · #6
I dunno, it just sort of makes sense to me. I understand that when I first started there was 100's of entries per challenge, and you really had to work your butt off to get anywhere, and people really did do well. Nowadays, with the less members and very few entries (compared to old days) I like the idea of pushing the people who have not got a hope of winning a virtual ribbon, but being super proud and beaming for several days. It is a huge moral booster.

We somehow have to forget the good old days and move forward (as in not 100's of enterys and members) into a smaller world of actual cameras and processing being used.

SO I think this would work,

I know there was a discussion the other day on technical challenges. And for the 1st time in 7 years I actually went back into the tutorial and How did they do that page, because I had totally forgotten how to make an action. It still took me an hour to perfect a very simple Signature Action. But I did it.

It is simple things like making an action, that a lot of people forget or don't know how, or they know it so well, it is second nature.

I also think (and heard about this as well on FB) that folks are often nervous about asking for the editing steps from Ribbon winners, as they seem inaccessibly. I know that is not true, as many of you are so willing to help and mentor, but they dont see it that way.

So maybe if a ribbon holder or two could comment it would bring in more people. I know we have all tried many many various ways to bring up memberships and participate in our now more that ever busy world. And technology has moved forward so much.

But this could work?
03/04/2020 12:17:18 PM · #7
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

(Let the arguments commence) =(

Well, in past discussions of this idea I think most of the sentiment (including from non-ribboners) was that such an award would be de-valued by virtue of being obtained without facing the rest of the photographers.

And it seems to me that most challenges yield at least one less-familiar person on the front page ...


I can see that, but also their reasoning is wrong.

They will be publishing their photos with their peers at the same level playing field that they are all on. Not competing against someone that has 20-100 ribbons. But you get your 3 ribbons , you get advice, you get that sense of accomplishment, you feel proud and it pushes you.

I mean, how many times can you fail against the same people for years and not feel like you will ever be any good before you say, sod it. I am not learning anything, I am failing at this every week, my self confidence in my hobby or work is at an all time low, let me give it up.

As an old proverb says " An apprentice is never as good as their Master, and constant rejection will never make an apprentice a Master, time, encouragement and dedication will make an apprentice the Master."

(actually I just made that up in my head, cus I haven't had coffee yet,but it sounds good LOL
03/04/2020 12:49:41 PM · #8
I like the idea. I don't see a down side.
03/04/2020 12:55:04 PM · #9
Originally posted by BeeCee:

On the surface this looks like a good idea but, personally, I think that if I won this kind of challenge I'd always look on that ribbon as not quite "real".... a skim-milk version instead of the cream off the top, as it were.

A perfect analogy in my opinion.
03/04/2020 12:55:14 PM · #10
Originally posted by JulietNN:



This was intended to be a learning site, and many multiply ribbon winners now do not add any info in their pictures, so why not try this.



I remember when I first started it was the norm to write up how you came about your image (often including editing) when fotogs submited their image.

A few people still do but in the main when I look at images after voting ends I'm faced with a sea of N/A's. I know it's been brought up before and you can't force people to write info about their image but it does help people.

Oh, and (changing the subject slightly) the critique club was a great place to learn for both parties but I gave up spending my time writing critiques because often I wasn't even getting a 'Photographer found comment helpful.'

I'm back again and hoping these oft spoken of changes help 'us' grow once again.
03/04/2020 02:25:24 PM · #11
Before I had a Top Ten finish, and really... still today... I treated DPC like a game of golf.

If I beat my average, I called it a win for me. If not, I played again.

That said, I’d love to see an “extra” challenge sometime with the non-ribboned, if that’s popular.
03/04/2020 02:34:40 PM · #12
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:

Originally posted by JulietNN:



This was intended to be a learning site, and many multiply ribbon winners now do not add any info in their pictures, so why not try this.



Oh, and (changing the subject slightly) the critique club was a great place to learn for both parties but I gave up spending my time writing critiques because often I wasn't even getting a 'Photographer found comment helpful.'

I'm back again and hoping these oft spoken of changes help 'us' grow once again.


Your side note of the Critique club, interesting, I did only about 243, so popped in to look at it again. And was going to start again. BUT the photo that just got critiqued today, was from 2006. Maybe with the new bits and bobs that are going on, the older photos could be cancelled and started again with an older year, not a shot from 16 years ago?

P.S Well done ' . substr('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('https://www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' ambaker xox
03/04/2020 02:53:12 PM · #13
A "Not yet ribbon holders only" challenge seems like an excellent idea to me.
03/04/2020 03:59:28 PM · #14
Originally posted by markwiley:

A "Not yet ribbon holders only" challenge seems like an excellent idea to me.


+1
03/04/2020 04:05:53 PM · #15
So effectively this challenge, were it to be a regular monthly thing, would eliminate 3 participants each time around, something discussed the last time it was brought up. Doesn't that makes it less and less relevant over time? Not poo-pooing the idea, just (re)thinking out loud.
03/04/2020 04:11:52 PM · #16
It's an idea worth discussing, but bear in mind it can't happen until the new iteration of the site goes up, because it would involve coding another module for "challenge type" that automatically excluded ribbon winners.
03/04/2020 04:23:27 PM · #17
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

So effectively this challenge, were it to be a regular monthly thing, would eliminate 3 participants each time around, something discussed the last time it was brought up. Doesn't that makes it less and less relevant over time? Not poo-pooing the idea, just (re)thinking out loud.


I get what you are saying, and the more in-depth you think about it, the more it seems less welcoming. But if it is an Open challenge, where members and non members can join in, I think it would bring more people to the table, in regards to talent , learning, education and new members, who get excited about not trying to compete with the 8745804520 ribbon hoggers! =P.

Is it a big deal to miss out on 1 challenge a month, in the hopes that we can bring more people in, educate and learn from within and also relearn stuff. I would think that, if you got 3 ribbons when you participate in the Non Ribbon section, that would then make you ineligible to do that 1 challenge a month. Cus as 'in the old days' 3 ribbons made you a Master challenger.

I talked to my son , who is right now, sitting on the balcony in the hopes an aeroplane fly's past, so he can photograph it. He said he would participate, he usually works with a phone camera and is excellent. I had to ask him yesterday if the cell phone I had was, a Smart one!

Gotta bring in new blood and excitement somehow!

It is 1 challenge a month, maybe have it as a 'Special" add on, no one would miss out on then.

03/04/2020 04:25:44 PM · #18
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's an idea worth discussing, but bear in mind it can't happen until the new iteration of the site goes up, because it would involve coding another module for "challenge type" that automatically excluded ribbon winners.


Not really. You just say IF YOU HAVE A RIBBON DO NOT ENTER, or be disqualified and have your village burnt to the ground and then we get the pitch forks and chase you around.

I have learnt that 98% of people on this site , DO have integrity.
03/04/2020 04:28:50 PM · #19
1. Why not? If the ribbon is valued or not valued is on a person by person basis anyway. And what difference could that possibly make, anyway? There are ribbons that I've won that I value less than others. So why do we care of someone doesn't think that ribbon is as important? That's their problem.

2. The coding should still be there to do either or challenges (remember simultaneous challenges like hot or cold?) Have two challenges: ribbons or no ribbons where you enter the one that's appropriate. However, there's an entrance fee on the ribbon winners. If you're doing the Masters challenge, you must comment on 20% of the non ribbon winners entries. The comments should be: "this is what I would have done to improve this shot".

We need to stop thinking about why we can't do things and just do them. We've had some great suggestions for technique challenges that weren't done because people may only have point and shoot or cell phones. Big deal. We have portrait challenges and I don't have cute models anymore. We do landscape challenges and I don't have snow capped mountains or northern lights.

If an idea comes up, let's just try it and see how it goes without second guessing the outcome. If people don't like it, there's two other challenges in the week.

Go for it!! (But I still think it should be done with ribbon winners giving constructive critique. Not "nice job" but "what if you cropped in about a third from the left and brought out the yellow in the eyes?"

Message edited by author 2020-03-04 16:30:48.
03/04/2020 04:34:43 PM · #20
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It's an idea worth discussing, but bear in mind it can't happen until the new iteration of the site goes up, because it would involve coding another module for "challenge type" that automatically excluded ribbon winners.


Not really. You just say IF YOU HAVE A RIBBON DO NOT ENTER, or be disqualified and have your village burnt to the ground and then we get the pitch forks and chase you around.

I have learnt that 98% of people on this site , DO have integrity.


Bingo! It's just a DQable offense. The site doesn't check to see if people are shooting minimal. If they enter incorrectly, they're just DQd.
03/04/2020 04:59:07 PM · #21
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Is it a big deal to miss out on 1 challenge a month, ...


I miss plenty of challenges each month and this isn't about feeling excluded in any way, shape or form. What I don't see is how it in any way incentivizes participation or facilitates improving.

You want to do that? Set an open challenge that is only open to voting by a select set of volunteer "ribbon hogs" who commit to not only voting but to critiquing the entries - all of them. Something short of a strictly juried challenge perhaps (which involves a lot more work and coordination) but it holds the promise that when you once again do not win a ribbon at least someone will tell you why. Or you open voting to everyone but you get a committed set of volunteer hogs to both vote and comment.

Message edited by author 2020-03-04 17:01:07.
03/04/2020 05:32:00 PM · #22
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

Is it a big deal to miss out on 1 challenge a month, ...


I miss plenty of challenges each month and this isn't about feeling excluded in any way, shape or form. What I don't see is how it in any way incentivizes participation or facilitates improving.

You want to do that? Set an open challenge that is only open to voting by a select set of volunteer "ribbon hogs" who commit to not only voting but to critiquing the entries - all of them. Something short of a strictly juried challenge perhaps (which involves a lot more work and coordination) but it holds the promise that when you once again do not win a ribbon at least someone will tell you why. Or you open voting to everyone but you get a committed set of volunteer hogs to both vote and comment.


Okay, you are going around in circles, as all of that has been said.

It is a suggestion and one that seems to have sparked interest.

I for one and several others have said they would comment and critique. I do not see how this is not a win win situation really, just reread the comments, I am not going to type it all out again.

Give it a 3 month trial so everyone gets the hang of what it is about, what needs to done to tweak it, who will commit, see if it brings in new people or encourages members now with new ideas with helpful advice, but also involves more people that are non carrying ribbons to participate and if the numbers go up at the end of 3 months, do another 3 months.

It is something different, nothing has to change, it is just something to change, an idea. Why not see if it works. Nothing has to change, but maybe something will. It is not difficult really.

03/04/2020 05:45:25 PM · #23
Out of curiosity is there any way of finding out how many non (or <3) ribbon winners have been active in challenges so far this year? I'd wager it's a small number. Whilst I agree this idea has some mileage I also think that its statistically easier to win a ribbon today than (say) 10 yers ago.

Also, I doubt any of my 5 favourite submissions here appear in my top 5 scoring images. Just because somebody might not have a virtual ribbon does not make them a bad photographer and I'd love to have the skills to shoot some of the images that don't 'fit' the DPC ribbon formula.

Like many here, I submit to see if my average has improved (apparently not).
03/04/2020 06:05:59 PM · #24
I thought the suggestion was for a one-off/special challenge like we did for the "Masters" challenges, not an additional weekly or monthly challenge; I wouldn't have a problem with the former, but I don't really support it as on ongoing/regular feature.
03/04/2020 06:30:43 PM · #25
I think a non ribboners challenge is a great idea. And I think it should be a stand alone challenge. If their is a masters version of the same thing it will exacerbate any feelings of devaluation.
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