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04/17/2019 12:36:44 PM · #26 |
You're making unfair assumptions. You're making it sound like the people that donated lots of money don't already do a lot for the poor. In many cases the rich are the ones that have set up foundations and scholarships, etc.
What portion of your money do you give to the poor? Should we ashamed that we spent a lot of money on camera equipment to try and create something beautiful in this world?
This is going to be a long-term project. It's going to employ a lot of people. There's a lot of good that can come out of this.
Personally, I find people who are interested in culture and beauty and history to be the type of people that are already doing a lot to help those less fortunate. I think they should also have the right to put money toward history, culture, etc.
There's a place for everything. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing Society. |
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04/17/2019 02:00:47 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by MichaelC:
It is my belief we could end poverty and hunger now but no government has the political will as taking the necessary steps such as reducing the military budget for example would be political suicide. |
Exacty I agree. The governments job is to be popular, if its not it hasn't got a job, the government is the majority of a society, democratically speaking of course, so yes this is a people's problem.
Jeb, I was just sharing another point of view, no need for anger.
Today in France I recieved text messages asking for donations from the companies that have promised money for the rebuilding project, my bank, my supermarket, never happened before, shit trying to get a loan from my bank is like trying to get blood from a stone. Why can't they make the same effort for people or animals or medical research or for any real need? |
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04/17/2019 03:06:01 PM · #28 |
| I’d just add that I believe that all our perspectives here are relevant and not one of them holds the truth. My conditioning makes me see the hypocrisy of the situation, someone else’s conditioning might give them a whole different perspective on the matter, that’s just how it is. There isn’t a correct perspective here but i feel it is good to look in all directions, if only to see the fragility of our own certitudes. |
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04/17/2019 04:13:00 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Jeb, I was just sharing another point of view, no need for anger. |
Not angry, frustrated.
As someone who is not religious, yet in awe of what humans have created, I hold the cathedral dear because of what it shows us. People built it. Regular folks with wives and families. They didn't have power tools, laser levels, CAD/CAM design, yet honestly, with all out technology, the craftsmanship with which it was built will be difficult to replicate.
I learned about historic architecture in school.....and before the cathedral was used to illustrate certain aspects, I had no idea what a flying buttress was, much less what Baroque architecture was. My point is that people from all over the world come to see this magical place for what it is as a testament to what the human can do.
When I saw it I was completely blown away. I'd like to think that it will be around for another 1000 years or so for people to see. I think that's the driving force behind the flood of donations.
Trust me, as an American, I see more money wasted on the stupidest things while people starve, people get shot for no good reason, and we're fouling our nest on a daily basis.
I also think that the catholic church is the world's largest terrorist organization. I do NOT like it. I'm one of the people who supports my state's drive to reverse the statute of limitations on child molestation. The catholic church is fighting it because of huge settlements already awarded saying that if the limitations are lifted, it could bankrupt them. Umm.... You know what? If the problem was that rampant, maybe you should be shut down.
So no.....it sure as Hell isn't about religion for me. Sorry if I came across as Mr. Crankypants but I got wrapped up in this discussion on a couple of different forums and boy is everyone all over the map on this one.
Good day to y'all...
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04/17/2019 06:14:38 PM · #30 |
I'm with you Jagar.
For me a building is just a building. It may be beautiful but it is still just a building.
In Australia we currently have the farmers in great need and the government doing little about it.
There are other really important issues as well that need government funding.
After the fire there is talk of Australia giving money for the rebuilding of Notra Dame.
We cannot find the funds to help our own but we will help rebuild a building in France .... what a joke.
We have an election coming up next month.
Guessing we will see a lot more of the following seeing there is no-one worth voting for.
Message edited by author 2019-04-17 18:23:55. |
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04/18/2019 12:37:43 AM · #31 |
What a mixed bag we are, just mind boggles (that's from an ex-Aussie ;) Australian politics has long been a farce and the reality of Australian farmers is climate change. No amount of money is going to stop it, it has gone too far. They have to face reality and leave the land, find other ways to make a living. Australia is still a land of opportunity, it is just that it is now in the big cities, not in the middle of the ever growing desert.
The answer to homelessness in Finland:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/how-finland-solved-homelessness/
so IT CAN BE DONE!!! And without dragging the ruins of world heritage into it!!
I'd better go and see again the Lausanne cathedral before it gets sacrificed on the altar of misplaced priorities :( |
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04/18/2019 01:19:41 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by jagar:
I’d just add that I believe that all our perspectives here are relevant and not one of them holds the truth. My conditioning makes me see the hypocrisy of the situation, someone else’s conditioning might give them a whole different perspective on the matter, that’s just how it is. There isn’t a correct perspective here but i feel it is good to look in all directions, if only to see the fragility of our own certitudes. |
YES.. :) |
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04/18/2019 02:35:27 AM · #33 |
Another perspective:
Vast sums of money have been found and an gargantuan effort will be made to save and rebuild a building that covers the area of a few football fields. This will be done in the name of heritage, saving our precious heritage. Wouldn’t saving our planet be a better priority, thousands of expert all agree on the dire state of our only true heritage, and not nearly enough is being done. Next time you walk in a pristine forest or walk along spotless beach (if you can find one) you will instinctively know that it’s way more of an important heritage issue than a building made by greedy powerful feudal lords.
Now they say they won’t be able to find the gigantic trees necessary to rebuild the rafters of the cathedral in the same way it was built, the forests that they came from aren’t there any more, cut down centuries ago to make buildings like this and all the wonderful armadas of war built to conquer new lands, quelle heritage.
How can humanity unite around something as futile as a nice building yet we ignore the plight of the only real thing of great importance, the planet? our arrogance is astounding.
We dream only of ourselves. |
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04/18/2019 09:43:38 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Another perspective:
Vast sums of money have been found and an gargantuan effort will be made to save and rebuild a building that covers the area of a few football fields. This will be done in the name of heritage, saving our precious heritage. Wouldn’t saving our planet be a better priority, thousands of expert all agree on the dire state of our only true heritage, and not nearly enough is being done. Next time you walk in a pristine forest or walk along spotless beach (if you can find one) you will instinctively know that it’s way more of an important heritage issue than a building made by greedy powerful feudal lords.
Now they say they won’t be able to find the gigantic trees necessary to rebuild the rafters of the cathedral in the same way it was built, the forests that they came from aren’t there any more, cut down centuries ago to make buildings like this and all the wonderful armadas of war built to conquer new lands, quelle heritage.
How can humanity unite around something as futile as a nice building yet we ignore the plight of the only real thing of great importance, the planet? our arrogance is astounding.
We dream only of ourselves. |
You're stating that it's all about perspective, then turning around and saying that the perspective that's not yours is wrong.
That's my objection. Is it better to think of the longevity of the planet? Sure! In a perfect altruistic world.
But what about if you're a 60 something billionaire? You have a chance to restore a very important piece of history, architecture, and human achievement possibly within your lifetime. Maybe this particular billionaire is fed up with the do-gooders because he had some bad experiences with crooked people who siphoned off money from the charitable organizations he helped sponsor.
So is he wrong to want to do something that is beneficial? Who are you (the collective you) to decide that his money could be "better spent"?
To me this is one of the issues of social media. Somebody else is always qwuick to decide how someone else is doing it wrong. IMNSHO, if someone wants to spend THEIR money on something, you have no say. And it's pretty damn presumptuous to think you can or should.
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04/18/2019 10:28:36 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Another perspective:
Vast sums of money have been found and an gargantuan effort will be made to save and rebuild a building that covers the area of a few football fields. This will be done in the name of heritage, saving our precious heritage. Wouldn’t saving our planet be a better priority, thousands of expert all agree on the dire state of our only true heritage, and not nearly enough is being done. Next time you walk in a pristine forest or walk along spotless beach (if you can find one) you will instinctively know that it’s way more of an important heritage issue than a building made by greedy powerful feudal lords.
Now they say they won’t be able to find the gigantic trees necessary to rebuild the rafters of the cathedral in the same way it was built, the forests that they came from aren’t there any more, cut down centuries ago to make buildings like this and all the wonderful armadas of war built to conquer new lands, quelle heritage.
How can humanity unite around something as futile as a nice building yet we ignore the plight of the only real thing of great importance, the planet? our arrogance is astounding.
We dream only of ourselves. |
Hmmm -- again, you seem to think it's an either/or situation.
It seems like I can (and did) become a Master Naturalist who volunteers for many projects to help save the environment. I put in over 200 hours last year for that very purpose.
And yet I can still contribute funds to rebuilding Notre Dame.
Why are people so quick to judge? Why do you assume that the people who are helping rebuild aren't also helping in other areas?
Why isn't there room in the world to cherish many things?
The Samsung Galaxy that you have listed as your camera was very expensive. Shouldn't you have given that money to the poor?
I'm not saying that to be sarcastic. I'm saying that because there is room for everything. Good people will find things that they deem are important, and try to help.
Because we have varying interests, the world is better served.
Message edited by author 2019-04-18 10:29:12. |
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04/18/2019 10:58:49 AM · #36 |
stopping people from donating to Notre Dame won't do a thing about climate change.
You can tell a real proposal to fight climate change because everyone hates it.
My favorite example is taxing oil. Oil has a terrible cost, and should therefore be taxed much more than it is. Everyone hates the idea of gas prices going up. After all, it punishes the poor regular guy who has to drive to work. But eventually people will not be expected to drive as much, and will adjust their lives accordingly. Telecommuting will increase. Yes, it will be painful. But it gives us a chance to continue as a species.
But everyone hates the idea. That's how you know it's a good one. Because change hurts, and everyone hates change, and if we don't change, we perish. |
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04/18/2019 11:33:30 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
But everyone hates the idea. That's how you know it's a good one. Because change hurts, and everyone hates change, and if we don't change, we perish. |
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
--Howard Aiken (1900 - 1973)
Message edited by author 2019-04-18 11:40:09. |
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04/18/2019 01:33:43 PM · #38 |
there is an excellent article in today's Guardian by Aditya Chakrabortty, which covers the more regional ramifications of any argument. I would give him 2 10's.
HYPOCRISY opinion (cannot get proper url for the article, so just click on "OPINION" in the header options). |
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04/18/2019 01:51:22 PM · #39 |
I did say that my perspective isn’t the only one, and I know with certitude that my view isn’t the whole truth, I also know that any view isn’t the whole truth because there isn’t a whole truth for any situation. I did think it was interesting to talk about different opinions and perspectives of what is considered an important happening of the times, and as I said earlier, even if only to see and accept the fragility of our own beliefs, that does include my own.
Most of the papers here in France today have talked about what they calll “le grande polémique“ and all of the well known charities here have denounced what they say is the indecency of the big companies donating money towards Notre Dame, they’ve Named it “patrimoine washing” a race to become the most popular, the biggest giver. For every euro they give they know by law here that 60 percent is deductible from their taxes, who will pay that bill, that’s already 600 million that the French tax payer will have to pay, many people aren’t happy .
There’s even been echoes from the charity that was initially responsable for collecting the money for the restoring of the building before it burned, it took them years and years to get the necessary funds to start the work.
Wendy, My work requires me to constantly be in touch with people from other countries so unfortunately I have to have the most costly telephone subscription, I’ve never paid for my phone, in fact i can get the newer version of my phone tomorrow and they will owe me €40, I’m lazy and won’t do it until work calms a bit and I have time to spend on the hassle of doing so. I would never question what you do with your money and my perspective is that you seem like a kind hearted person that would do good wherever you could, and I’ve never thought otherwise.
Most of us here have read the bible or have some knowledge of it and the life of Jesus. With all honesty and without judgment what would Jesus want in this situation ? Would he want a glorious building in his name ?
.
Message edited by author 2019-04-18 13:53:57. |
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04/18/2019 02:15:47 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by tnun:
there is an excellent article in today's Guardian by Aditya Chakrabortty, which covers the more regional ramifications of any argument. I would give him 2 10's.
HYPOCRISY opinion (cannot get proper url for the article, so just click on "OPINION" in the header options). |
Try this, it seems tp work:
Hypocrisy Retry |
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04/18/2019 02:19:24 PM · #41 |
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04/18/2019 02:45:52 PM · #42 |
| It seems to me especially important to recognize that for the very wealthy, 60% of the donation is a tax write-off in France. In other words, for every billion donated for the restoration, that's 600 million LESS the government has in its coffers... We all know who covers the shortfall, right? :-( |
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04/18/2019 03:03:17 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Most of us here have read the bible or have some knowledge of it and the life of Jesus. With all honesty and without judgment what would Jesus want in this situation ? Would he want a glorious building in his name ? |
Personally, I have none too high of an opinion of Christians in general. Especially considering what evangelical Christians in this country are like. I have my own views on Jesus and I'll keep them that way. Part of why I don't like Christians is because, IMNSHO the WWJD scenario assumes that his course of action is the best course to take. The other part of that is the interpretational aspect. Nobody really knows. We can extrapolate, theorize, make decisions based on what we know of him, BUT....nobody truly knows. So to me asking this question does nothing more than try to leverage a POV by dragging Jesus into it to support your stance.
What the Cathedral at Notre Dame represents on many levels is history, art, & architecture. It's grandeur will not be replicated in normal life any more, nor hasn't for almost 1000 years. Truly this isn't even a case of rebuilding something out of the rubble. It's extensive repairs, but the majority of the structure survives. Its historical significance supports the case for rebuilding, and hey, if private individuals want to pay for it and neither the man on the street or the French government have to cough up a penny, why not?
I too am surprised by the intensity on both sides of the fence that this situation produced. I actually unfriended one guy over it......truth be told, I was looking for an excuse, but he was a major jerk about it....(Hey, it's just a building, big f'in' deal.)
I'll be curious as to the end result.
One happy thing of note. The three black churches that the white supremacist asshole burnt are all getting donations since the Notre Dame incident. That's terrific, IMO.
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04/18/2019 03:28:16 PM · #44 |
Jeb, the building has no purpose other than a religious building, it was built in the name of Jesus to praise his teachings. It is my opinion (not necessarily true so don’t go all mad on me) that he would not be happy about such wealth being thrown about in his name, his teachings were the complete opposite of this. The question is very relevant in this situation, it’s maybe the most relevant question.
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04/18/2019 04:17:40 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
It seems to me especially important to recognize that for the very wealthy, 60% of the donation is a tax write-off in France. In other words, for every billion donated for the restoration, that's 600 million LESS the government has in its coffers... We all know who covers the shortfall, right? :-( |
In this case, that's false. This particular law (the one about the 60%) is capped, and the big donators involved here are already maxed out. The write-off does not apply. |
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04/18/2019 04:21:24 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Jeb, the building has no purpose other than a religious building, it was built in the name of Jesus to praise his teachings. It is my opinion (not necessarily true so don’t go all mad on me) that he would not be happy about such wealth being thrown about in his name, his teachings were the complete opposite of this. The question is very relevant in this situation, it’s maybe the most relevant question. |
Obviously we will agree to disagree....that building means *nothing* to me as a religious building.
As an example of artistry in architecture and man's amazing capabilities to build things of awe-inspiring grandeur, it is timeless.
I put it right up there with the pyramids, the Taj Mahal, and the Coliseum in Rome.
I will stipulate that it seems odd that so many magnificent structures were built in the name of religion's gods when more than anything else that I've taken away from all religions is that the single most important thing we should do in this journey we share is to be caring and loving to each other.
Not building opulent edifices. But they're cool to look at!
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04/18/2019 07:35:58 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by gyaban:
In this case, that's false. This particular law (the one about the 60%) is capped, and the big donators involved here are already maxed out. The write-off does not apply. |
That's good to hear, thank you! |
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04/18/2019 09:11:14 PM · #48 |
| Coincidentally, at the same time the cathedral was burning, a fire broke out at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Islam's third-holiest site. "Interesting" that almost no one knew about that. Fortunately, in that case the damage was minor ... |
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04/18/2019 09:54:58 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Coincidentally, at the same time the cathedral was burning, a fire broke out at Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, Islam's third-holiest site. "Interesting" that almost no one knew about that. Fortunately, in that case the damage was minor ... |
Also a basement fire broke on Palm Sunday at the cathedral St.John the Divine in Manhattan. No major damage.
St.John the Divine
I don't think that more speculations are necessary though. There are things more then ourselves and the mixture of money, politics and catholic church in one gulp is, well, too fiery and conducts to regrettably too impassionate response. |
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04/19/2019 12:51:49 AM · #50 |
| Everybody’s getting in on the act, must be the season. |
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