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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Dear Notre dame of hypocrisy
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04/16/2019 03:12:32 PM · #1
Yesterday a beautiful building that was used nearly only by tourists having a good time went up in smoke. Within the first 24 hours over 700 million euros have been miraculously donated and found to help towards its renovation and rebuilding.
France has 140000 homeless 30000 of whom are children, as anybody who has stayed long enough in Paris knows, the city has a big problem with poverty and homelessness.
Notre dame of Paris is a cathedral, it is supposed to represent god and the Christian faith and its ethical values.
Anybody see the hypocrisy here.

04/16/2019 03:20:43 PM · #2
So why is it that every time someone does something good, someone else has to turn it around to make it something bad...?
04/16/2019 03:41:55 PM · #3
Originally posted by alanfreed:

So why is it that every time someone does something good, someone else has to turn it around to make it something bad...?


Whereís the goodness ?
04/16/2019 03:43:49 PM · #4
I've visited Notre Dame. I've also been to many cathedrals in Italy.

There are two truths about cathedrals. The first is that they were built by a wealthy, autocratic institution with the blood, sweat and taxes of the poor.

The second truth is that they are beautiful. In this world where humans come and go as quickly as other animals, they demonstrate not a grandiose achievement (any Trump tower does that), but a reverence for a greater beauty, the beauty that exists within and around us at all times. And most of these cathedrals can now be visited by people of any class. To the discerning eye, they reveal that the less fortunate are worth caring about because they reveal the worth of everything.

It is the way of humanity. We sin and redeem in the same gesture. We fall and fly at once.
04/16/2019 03:50:31 PM · #5
We dream only of ourselves.

Message edited by author 2019-04-16 15:51:10.
04/16/2019 04:20:46 PM · #6
Originally posted by jagar:

We dream only of ourselves.


I don't know about that... when I visit these places, any of them, I dream of music and art and culture from centuries ago... I can feel it. It's stirring. Is that just dreaming of my myself? I hope not. I dream for times to come, to have learned from the past, to create for the future. I'm obviously not a philosopher, but I grieve at this loss. And I can also still grieve for the 30000 homeless children nearby... it is unfortunate that tourism doesn't help them.
04/16/2019 04:31:01 PM · #7
Duality exists in everything. Nothing is all good or all bad. All the good has seeds of evil in it. All bad has the light of good somewhere.

It is a personal choice to look at the bad in the good, or the good in the bad.
04/16/2019 04:46:23 PM · #8
One can admit of the hypocrisy of underfunding homeless children while still mourning the loss of a structure of architectural and historic significance; taking care of both needn't be a zero-sum game, rather a re-ordering of priorities.

See the recent discussion of Tiger Woods and golf for another example of something neither entirely good or bad.

What might be wholly bad was one sports-talk radio host's observation that, given the state of news today, had the cathedral burned a day earlier Tiger would've gotten top billing ... :-(
04/16/2019 05:59:43 PM · #9
Originally posted by jagar:

Yesterday a beautiful building that was used nearly only by tourists having a good time went up in smoke. Within the first 24 hours over 700 million euros have been miraculously donated and found to help towards its renovation and rebuilding.
France has 140000 homeless 30000 of whom are children, as anybody who has stayed long enough in Paris knows, the city has a big problem with poverty and homelessness.
Notre dame of Paris is a cathedral, it is supposed to represent god and the Christian faith and its ethical values.
Anybody see the hypocrisy here.

Then take it up with the people who donated the money.

Taking this stance in a community of artists who have a deep appreciation for the history and evolution of art is just a tad disingenuous.

Oh, and you forgot to point out that it's a monument to colonialism and white supremacy.

I'm one of the unwashed who, having been there to see and appreciate its beauty, was disheartened by the misfortune.
04/16/2019 06:46:33 PM · #10
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm one of the unwashed who, having been there to see and appreciate its beauty, was disheartened by the misfortune.

Jeb, that's not fair. I'm sure Jagar also has had many opportunities to view the beauty and history of Notre Dame, and I'm sure this "misfortune" leaves him sad as well. But if I'm honest I take his point and don't entirely disagree with it. Given the many, many problems France (indeed, all nations) faces right now, it strikes me as ludicrous that they would pour that much money into "rescuing" a monument when that means, basically, doing their best to replicate medieval artisans' works in modern times.

I'm not a hard-liner on this issue, but it seems to me potentially reasonable to leave the monument as-is, with whatever cleanup and shoring-up is needed to make it safe, and reopen it to the public. Lord knows there are plenty of ruins in Europe that are immense tourism magnets so that part's viable enough.

Just thinkin' out loud. Don't anyone shoot me for being hardheaded, please. Count me as amongst those who have visited the Cathedral and who are mourning this disaster whole-heartedly. I'm just not positive restoration is the best way to go forward.
04/16/2019 06:56:33 PM · #11
Wasn't there some guy who had the crazy idea that people who were well-off should give their money to the less-fortunate? Did anything ever come of that?
04/16/2019 07:27:22 PM · #12
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm one of the unwashed who, having been there to see and appreciate its beauty, was disheartened by the misfortune.

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Jeb, that's not fair. I'm sure Jagar also has had many opportunities to view the beauty and history of Notre Dame, and I'm sure this "misfortune" leaves him sad as well. But if I'm honest I take his point and don't entirely disagree with it. Given the many, many problems France (indeed, all nations) faces right now, it strikes me as ludicrous that they would pour that much money into "rescuing" a monument when that means, basically, doing their best to replicate medieval artisans' works in modern times.

I'm not a hard-liner on this issue, but it seems to me potentially reasonable to leave the monument as-is, with whatever cleanup and shoring-up is needed to make it safe, and reopen it to the public. Lord knows there are plenty of ruins in Europe that are immense tourism magnets so that part's viable enough.

Just thinkin' out loud. Don't anyone shoot me for being hardheaded, please. Count me as amongst those who have visited the Cathedral and who are mourning this disaster whole-heartedly. I'm just not positive restoration is the best way to go forward.

Okay.... I see your point, and if that happens, so be it.

But again, if there are people who want to see it restored and that's how they specify they want monies used that they donate, giving them a hard time about it, or trying to guilt them into using the money "better" may result in them not donating at all. Then we still have the issues, and no money for restoration, either, hence a ruin. This isn't a case of government funds being misappropopriated, it's specific donations. And IMNSHO, that would truly be a shame to not restore it considering how much of it is still okay.

Message edited by author 2019-04-16 19:28:10.
04/16/2019 07:29:35 PM · #13
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Wasn't there some guy who had the crazy idea that people who were well-off should give their money to the less-fortunate? Did anything ever come of that?

A problem the world over.

Not here in the US, though. Look how much the current administration cares about the country's less fortunate.

It's a miracle!

Not...
04/16/2019 07:56:05 PM · #14
We're edging closer and closer to rant here...
04/16/2019 08:50:17 PM · #15
I don't think it's a rant. I'm sure the majority of people here and everywhere see the disconnect; and it is only one of many disconnects of this sort.

And that guy who told the little rich boy to sell all his gear and give the money to the poor rebuked his buddies for resenting the foot spa given by the woman of the towelling hair.

It is good to see how we think about such things.

04/16/2019 09:02:33 PM · #16
There was a Dutch historian who suggested recently at WTO (World Trade Forum) that the insanely rich of our world should pay more taxes so that those less fortunate could be better off. Look what happened to him and his idea.

I am an atheist but as I traveled around the world I realized how much of the incredible beauty was created by those who believe in God(s). This seems to be inherent to human nature. Imagine the world without the art of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci etc etc?

I was very hurt when I saw the IS blow up the ancient monuments in Syria. To me any willful or accidental damage to world heritage hurts and I am very pleased that Notre Dame will be re-built.

So if we want to help the poor of Paris why don't we focus on the super rich paying more taxes rather than letting the world heritage go into ruins?
04/16/2019 09:08:17 PM · #17
Originally posted by marnet:

So if we want to help the poor of Paris why don't we focus on the super rich paying more taxes rather than letting the world heritage go into ruins?

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1132389.jpg
04/16/2019 10:29:26 PM · #18
Originally posted by marnet:

There was a Dutch historian who suggested recently at WTO (World Trade Forum) that the insanely rich of our world should pay more taxes so that those less fortunate could be better off. Look what happened to him and his idea.


His name is Rutger Bregman and Iíve just finished reading his book ďUtopia for RealistsĒ which puts forward arguments for UBI(universal basic income) and a 15 hour workweek.
04/16/2019 10:41:19 PM · #19
Originally posted by marnet:

So if we want to help the poor of Paris why don't we focus on the super rich paying more taxes rather than letting the world heritage go into ruins?


I agree!

Message edited by GeneralE - Corrected attribution.
04/17/2019 12:01:53 AM · #20
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

But if I'm honest I take his point and don't entirely disagree with it. Given the many, many problems France (indeed, all nations) faces right now, it strikes me as ludicrous that they would pour that much money into "rescuing" a monument when that means, basically, doing their best to replicate medieval artisans' works in modern times.

I'm not a hard-liner on this issue, but it seems to me potentially reasonable to leave the monument as-is, with whatever cleanup and shoring-up is needed to make it safe, and reopen it to the public. Lord knows there are plenty of ruins in Europe that are immense tourism magnets so that part's viable enough.

Just thinkin' out loud. Don't anyone shoot me for being hardheaded, please. Count me as amongst those who have visited the Cathedral and who are mourning this disaster whole-heartedly. I'm just not positive restoration is the best way to go forward.


Et tu, Brute?
04/17/2019 12:31:02 AM · #21
Originally posted by mariuca:

Et tu, Brute?

Kinda, sorta :-( It's not that I don't think the place is magnificent, because of course it is. It's that, somehow, a modern recreation doesn't have the same gravitas for me. I'm torn :-( So I can understand Jagar's point of view. I think it's important to try to do that.
04/17/2019 02:08:31 AM · #22
I appreciate any magnificent building just as much as the next guy, being a stone builder and knowing the unimaginable effort involved, maybe even more.
France has so many magnificent chateauís and building that thereís even conflicting views on how many they are, where I live every little town seems to have its chateau, all of them are magnificent to look at, some of them derelict, most of them not, all of them cost an absolute fortune to maintain.

The cross that survived the fire in Notre Dame represents Jesus, I ask you all: what do you think Jesus would do in with a building like that?
Would he not disown it or even run in there and upturn the money laden tables, would he not be amongst the poor, helping wherever he could? preaching that to share is to love, Itís very obvious no?

Now astronomical amounts of money will be spent on finishing the renovation before the 2024 Olympics, Iím sure thereíll also be vast amounts of money spent on shifting the homeless out of site so they donít spoil the show, new homeless shelters will spring up like mushrooms for the brief period of the games, then theyíll disappear back into the soil as soon as the rich have finished playing.

Thereís nothing at all shocking or hard in what Iím saying, itís just what is and I thought Iíd share it. I am sorry though if you didnít want to look that way, turn away again quickly and forget and enjoy.

04/17/2019 04:36:29 AM · #23
I gotta admit that while I was shocked and saddened by the damage to the cathedral, I was SHOCKED by the amount of money pledged in a single day. I also thought about all the people that money could help, but my understanding is that it was donated by private citizens, so it's their prerogative to do what they want with it. I also did (or thought I did) hear the President of France say "We will rebuild it no matter the cost" or something to that effect. So I would definitely draw the line at taxpayer money being used. It could be argued that Notre Dame attracts million$ of touri$t$ each year, but I would counter with the fact that it's not the only thing they come to see. That's my two cents that nobody asked for.
04/17/2019 09:26:51 AM · #24
It is my belief we could end poverty and hunger now but no government has the political will as taking the necessary steps such as reducing the military budget for example would be political suicide.
04/17/2019 09:31:04 AM · #25
Originally posted by jagar:

Now astronomical amounts of money will be spent on finishing the renovation before the 2024 Olympics, Iím sure thereíll also be vast amounts of money spent on shifting the homeless out of site so they donít spoil the show, new homeless shelters will spring up like mushrooms for the brief period of the games, then theyíll disappear back into the soil as soon as the rich have finished playing.

Yes, but back to..... If the people who donate the money don't feel like being good to the city's less fortunate, to use your own phrase, it's just what is. That's my only objection to the initial premise. Hey, I spend time, since I have no money, doing what I can to help out in my community. It galls me to see businesses and rich individuals spend sh*tloads of money on projects that aren't all that altruistic, but hey......they get their name on a plaque and a ribbon-cutting ceremony. But any money spent on bettering anything in the community is better than nothing at all, IMNSHO.
Originally posted by jagar:

Thereís nothing at all shocking or hard in what Iím saying, itís just what is and I thought Iíd share it. I am sorry though if you didnít want to look that way, turn away again quickly and forget and enjoy.

Aaaaand there's the rub!

A pox on you, and the horse you rode in on for assuming that just because the uber-rich don't give a sh*t about helping the poor and marginalized means the rest of us share that sentiment. There are too many right-brained people here to use that brush here.

Bite me! 8>)

P.S. Here's a thought..... Maybe the Catholic Church could pry open a dusty vault or two and use some of the gold coins in there to fix their own house.

Message edited by author 2019-04-17 09:32:36.
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