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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> 3D wire-frame models in Extended Editing?
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03/25/2019 03:11:53 AM · #1
Say, I take a 3D wire-frame model of a vase and apply my photo to its surface taken during 2 weeks after the challenge announcement i.e. the date of the photo is correct but the 3D wire-frame was made earlier by me or taken from a standard library made by somebody else, would this be allowed under Extended Editing? Still in other words - the shape of the objects does not exist in any photo but all surfaces are made of my photos taken at the correct time. Reading the rules does not give me a clear answer.
03/25/2019 06:00:58 AM · #2
there are ready made scenes for 3DS max available online (free or buy). just map your pictures over it and tada… your photo is done. creativity 0, skills 2, wow effect 10. score on dpc 7.3
I still separate 3d art and photography art as much as possible.
Minimal is not minimal enough (sharpening, desaturate)
Standard is too extended (textures, cloning out, post processing extremes)
Extended is too extended. (basically everything is allowed)
To answer your question, yes it can be done as I think Gyaban used to work like that on some of his entries using 3d scenes with 3d wire bodies before.

03/25/2019 06:06:42 AM · #3
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

there are ready made scenes for 3DS max available online (free or buy). just map your pictures over it and tada… your photo is done. creativity 0, skills 2, wow effect 10. score on dpc 7.3

Thanks but my definition of creativity is somewhat different :(

Anyway, I am very happy that 3D wire-frames are allowed, just waiting for a nice person from the Site Council to confirm it :)
03/25/2019 11:44:07 AM · #4
Confirmed. Gyaban has used them, albeit he creates his own wireframes to wrap textures etc around.
03/25/2019 11:46:59 AM · #5
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Confirmed. Gyaban has used them, albeit he creates his own wireframes to wrap textures etc around.
Thanks! Now I need to learn how to do it ;)
03/25/2019 11:50:58 AM · #6
and this is photography?
03/25/2019 11:59:50 AM · #7
Originally posted by glad2badad:

and this is photography?
To me yes, to you no, but let's accept our differences. Freedom of ideas and tolerance are great virtues. Highly recommended! :)
03/25/2019 12:04:21 PM · #8
Sorry, but 3D modeling doesn't sound like photography to me at all. Guess I'll need to start voting on extended challenges again. :-(
03/25/2019 12:27:14 PM · #9
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Sorry, but 3D modeling doesn't sound like photography to me at all. Guess I'll need to start voting on extended challenges again. :-(

It's about the photos you take to wrap the frame with. Can't get away from that part. It would be a shame if people who hate Extended Editing concepts all started voting them down, wouldn't it? I mean, that's the playground for those who WANT to do stuff like this, why ruin their fun just because YOU don't like it?
03/25/2019 12:41:02 PM · #10
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Sorry, but 3D modeling doesn't sound like photography to me at all. Guess I'll need to start voting on extended challenges again. :-(

It's about the photos you take to wrap the frame with. Can't get away from that part. It would be a shame if people who hate Extended Editing concepts all started voting them down, wouldn't it? I mean, that's the playground for those who WANT to do stuff like this, why ruin their fun just because YOU don't like it?

Because it feels like cheating. It's just CGI stuff. Sure there's a photo involved, so congrats on that I guess.
03/25/2019 01:06:41 PM · #11
I expect that taking a photo which can be effectively and realistically draped over a 3-D wireframe is quite a challenge; I'm sure making the model is the easy part.
03/26/2019 09:28:06 AM · #12
I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?
03/26/2019 10:20:25 AM · #13
Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?

Compare the first two images on this page from NASA -- in the second a satellite photo has been "draped" over an "elevation model" of the topography, which is similar to the wireframe models being discussed.

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144476/savage-south-georgia
03/26/2019 10:21:59 AM · #14
Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POtfOVD4OOU
03/26/2019 10:22:01 AM · #15
Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POtfOVD4OOU
03/26/2019 10:35:38 AM · #16
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POtfOVD4OOU

That would be illegal in Expert because it uses 3D clip-art.
03/26/2019 10:59:03 AM · #17
Originally posted by marnet:

Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POtfOVD4OOU

That would be illegal in Expert because it uses 3D clip-art.

I think the original question was if the technique was legal at all, presuming one constructed one's own wireframes.
03/26/2019 12:00:28 PM · #18
Originally posted by marnet:

Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

I have no idea what you all are talking about. Can you show an example?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POtfOVD4OOU

That would be illegal in Expert because it uses 3D clip-art.


I you create the mesh yourself and map it with your face, it's still a 3D clipart
03/26/2019 12:59:35 PM · #19
Extended Editing is a results-based ruleset, not a tool-based one. NO tool is forbidden in and of itself. It's possible in PS to warp a scene into any imaginable shape without resorting to wireframes, it's just incredibly time-consuming. The wireframe is the tool that allows the mapping for the warp to be done efficiently.

For this reason, a user-created wireframe would be legal in Extended Editing. We've never been asked to rule on a "clip art" wireframe before. My instinct is to say that wouldn't pass muster, but the problem is that the programs themselves have geometrical solids etc already created and available for use or warping...
03/26/2019 02:12:41 PM · #20
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

... the problem is that the programs themselves have geometrical solids etc already created and available for use or warping...

I don't think that's any more of a problem than being able to select a perfectly circular/oval area or to apply a pre-defined filter or texture in Photoshop. A cone, cube or sphere without a surface (image) applied is not "clip art" by a graphic designer's definition. If one were to make a photographic print onto a sheet of crumpled paper I don't think the blank paper would be considered "clip art" if the photographer creases the paper themselves.

Message edited by author 2019-03-26 14:13:02.
03/26/2019 09:03:38 PM · #21
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Extended Editing is a results-based ruleset, not a tool-based one. NO tool is forbidden in and of itself. It's possible in PS to warp a scene into any imaginable shape without resorting to wireframes, it's just incredibly time-consuming. The wireframe is the tool that allows the mapping for the warp to be done efficiently.

For this reason, a user-created wireframe would be legal in Extended Editing. We've never been asked to rule on a "clip art" wireframe before. My instinct is to say that wouldn't pass muster, but the problem is that the programs themselves have geometrical solids etc already created and available for use or warping...

Didn't even 21.gif gyaban run into some hot water (DQ's) with tools he was using to create some of his masterpieces?
03/26/2019 09:06:46 PM · #22
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Didn't even 21.gif gyaban run into some hot water (DQ's) with tools he was using to create some of his masterpieces?

I know he created a problem when it looked like he'd have to upload about 200 originals for validation of one entry ...
03/27/2019 12:22:06 AM · #23
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Didn't even 21.gif gyaban run into some hot water (DQ's) with tools he was using to create some of his masterpieces?

Here's the actual DQ message:

"The 23 .png files you sent to us are not valid originals: they have no EXIF data appended and we cannot verify that they were created during the challenge timeframe, as required by the rules. Accordingly, we have to DQ your submission. Meanwhile, there is still a raging debate within SC as to whether or not this sort of wireframe modeling allowed in our Expert Editing rules. We're still arguing that back and forth..."

As things stand now, we are validating wireframes.
03/27/2019 12:39:52 AM · #24
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

. . .
It's about the photos you take to wrap the frame with. Can't get away from that part. It would be a shame if people who hate Extended Editing concepts all started voting them down, wouldn't it? I mean, that's the playground for those who WANT to do stuff like this, why ruin their fun just because YOU don't like it?


I'm reading no further. BIG +++

And I don't do this - can't would be more accurate. But I sure do admire those who can and do and Extended is the place for it.
03/27/2019 08:06:04 AM · #25
Quote from this thread (interesting read):

Related to this entry (which IMO is cool to look at, but miles away from "photography") --> Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1162767.jpg

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

One more time around the mulberry bush :-( Unfortunately, Kasaba's image, like the former blue ribbon, contains objects created in a modelling program outside of, and imported into, Photoshop. These files are .PNG format, and they do not have any EXIF data we can use to validate who created them and when. Accordingly we have to DQ images that use these modeled objects as part of their submission.

We acknowledge there's been some confusion about this, particularly with regard to Gyaban, because unfortunately his "Blue" entry used a LOT of these files and was, in fact, validated not too long ago. It seems like we had a collective blindness on SC and nobody caught that these elements were naked with regard to EXIF. Compounding this, we'd earlier had a long discussion with Christophe about how he wanted to use the modeling programs, and although we did have some misgivings we did give him the green light to experiment. The first experiment, then, was the "Blue" entry, the underwater saxophone player.

Unfortunately, we misunderstood what Christophe was planning to do: we thought he was going to wrap photographic objects around wireframe models. However, actually what he wanted to do, and what he and, in this case, Kasaba have done, is to create the objects entirely in the modeling program and import them into Photoshop for assembly. SC, collectively, feel like this is straying way too far from the intended scope of the Expert Editing rules:

Originally posted by Expert Rules:

Your submission must be: composed only from photographs taken after the challenge is announced and before the deadline, based on the Current Server Time (US Eastern Standard/Daylight Time) displayed at the bottom of every page on this site.

Please remember, however, that this is a photography contest.


Because we have not been entirely clear about this, we are registering these two DQs as "no-penalty" DQs, meaning they won't be applied against any potential time limits for suspensions etc. We will also work to clarify the Expert Editing rules and dial ourselves back from where we have gotten to in these challenges. I'm sure many of you have opinions you'd like to share on this :-)

Incidentally, I'm writing this without running it by the rest of SC first because I think we need to make clear what's happening. But it may well be (probably WILL be) that there will be a lot of discussion in SC forum about that last paragraph of mine :-)
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