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02/05/2019 04:41:57 AM · #26 |
For me the exposure to different genres from the great variety of photographers that we have here guided my current preferences. I say current since I hope that they will change and evolve over time. I think originally I was primarily exposed to mainstream photography (crisp, clear, beautiful) and, because I'm very stupid, I hadn't really considered that there also is great beauty too in the obscured. I find that I am now much rewarded *if* (and this doesn't always happen) I find something to bite onto in an image. It makes the minute I might have spent looking at a photograph much more substantial. I can't say, in generality, *what* it is that I find though. It's mercurial I guess. You asked a hard question, John! :-)
I will say that I have a great admiration for those on here that make me wonder why they even bothered to take the photo that I am looking at. I like to be challenged. |
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02/05/2019 12:55:28 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by jagar:
just a rant pointing to the fact that there’s absolutely nothing to do to have peace of mind, no movement for or against, any movement takes us away from what is. |
But doesn't free will allow you the choice of deciding that it's useless, OR....
That in your own perception, you can decide to achieve peace of mind through your efforts?
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02/05/2019 02:52:09 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by jagar:
just a rant pointing to the fact that there’s absolutely nothing to do to have peace of mind, no movement for or against, any movement takes us away from what is. |
But doesn't free will allow you the choice of deciding that it's useless, OR....
That in your own perception, you can decide to achieve peace of mind through your efforts? |
Yes, for the apparent sens of self, free will does everything, when it’s seen by no one that there’s actually no separate me inside here doing anything and that there never has been, It’s also seen that free will has never been and the story of the individual that led up to that point was just that, a story, purely thought.
We are not this time bound entity going from birth to death, we are just what’s happening now, can you find anything else, have a look in your attention right now, think of a painful event that happened in the past, where is it happening? It can only be happening in thought right now, do the same for the future or think of Paris, where are they? nothing is actually happening but sitting in front of your computer and reading this.
Actually what we’ve always been looking for in every endeavor, is our own absence. No one gets anything and for the me that’s impossible to accept and usually it brings a lot of fear so it continues in a loop of good and bad, trying in vain to control what it can’t.
Of course none of this matters, feeling separate is as meaningless as not feeling separate because what is is.
All I’m actually saying here is that there’s thought and there's what’s actually happening right now, thought can’t find what’s actually happening because thought is thought and as such it’s not real, it’s useful like a program in a computer is useful, it can make a cup of tea or if I’m a dog i can find my way home, but when it pulls a veil over reality and creates a whole world with the me at its center, it doesn’t feel peaceful in that world and it’s totally unsatisfying because somewhere it’s known that it’s not true, so seeking continues, always from thought, it’s endless. There’s simply what’s happening and its perfect and simple and can’t be known by anyone because there is no one, all you’ve ever been is thought.
Message edited by Bear_Music - broken up for ease of reading. |
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02/05/2019 02:57:01 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Neat:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Neat:
Originally posted by jagar:
I think we should all simply choose to be happy for the rest our lives, should be a piece of cake if we have free will, I mean it is the motivation behind every one of actions, must have been done before. |
I get the feeling I could be wrong but it seems like maybe John you’re searching for the meaning of life. Yes absolutely we can choose to be happy, but happiness only comes as a result of the things we do. We reap what we sow and then those things either make us happy or sad.
There are invisible laws in this universe that if kept will bring happiness and fulfilment in life.
All the best. |
Couldn’t be further from what’s happening Anita, meaning and purpose are the inventions of the separate individual, apart from the survival of a species nothing in our direct experience has meaning or purpose. Having meaning and purpose is like saying, what is actually happening isn’t enough, there must be something better, meaning and purpose is hope, hope for something else that’s not actually happening. Humans are the only species arrogant enough to believe in meaning and purpose and deny the perfection of this manifestation. The sensation that this is isn’t enough is the energetic feeling of being a separate individual and having free will and choice to mould the future into something better than what’s actually happening, it’s the none acceptation of reality as it is and a sure way to be at least fifty percent of the time in the half of reality we don’t want and are trying to avoid. So no, there’s no seeking here Anita, just a rant pointing to the fact that there’s absolutely nothing to do to have peace of mind, no movement for or against, any movement takes us away from what is. The idea that you are orchestrating things, the idea that there’s a separate you in there pulling the levers, is just that an idea, a thought and just like any other thought It has no tangible reality, no thought is real, what’s actually happening isn’t in thought and never has been. Nothing’s happening. |
Always interesting to see how other people think, you don’t happen to be an INTJ personality type do you? |
He's Chinese and you're Greek. |
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02/05/2019 03:33:19 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by jagar:
just a rant pointing to the fact that there’s absolutely nothing to do to have peace of mind, no movement for or against, any movement takes us away from what is. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
But doesn't free will allow you the choice of deciding that it's useless, OR....
That in your own perception, you can decide to achieve peace of mind through your efforts? |
Originally posted by jagar:
Yes, for the apparent sens of self, free will does everything, when it’s seen by no one that there’s actually no separate me inside here doing anything and that there never has been, It’s also seen that free will has never been and the story of the individual that led up to that point was just that, a story, purely thought. We are not this time bound entity going from birth to death, we are just what’s happening now, can you find anything else, have a look in your attention right now, think of a painful event that happened in the past, where is it happening? It can only be happening in thought right now, do the same for the future or think of Paris, where are they? nothing is actually happening but sitting in front of your computer and reading this. Actually what we’ve always been looking for in every endevour, is our own absence. No one gets anything and for the me that’s impossible to accept and usually it brings a lot of fear so it continues in a loop of good and bad, trying in vain to control what it can’t. Of course none of this matters, feeling separate is as meaningless as not feeling separate because what is is. All I’m actually saying here is that there’s thought and what’s actually happening right now, thought can’t find what’s actually happening because thought is thought and as such it’s not real, it’s useful like a program in a computer is useful, it can make a cup of tea or if I’m a dog i can find my way home, but when it pulls a veil over reality and creates a whole world with the me at its center, it doesn’t feel peaceful in that world and it’s totally unsatisfying because somewhere it’s known that it’s not true, so seeking continues, always from thought, it’s endless. There’s simply what’s happening and its perfect and simple and can’t be known by anyone because there is no one, all you’ve ever been is thought. |
Hmm.. This is a lot to ponder. And isn't that in and of itself, and the interaction of discussing this altering what would be our separate lives in which we have no control, saying something of that change?
If I'm following your train of thought correctly, I'm really just a spectator in my life. Yet I feel as though on a couple of signifigant occasions I *have* changed the direction my life would have originally taken, intentionally and unintentionally. And isn't just the activity of being sentient empowering us to have choices? And to act, or not on them, at least varying what would have been without our input?
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02/05/2019 04:48:48 PM · #31 |
| John, I've taken the liberty of breaking your most recent block of words into separate paragraphs to make it easier to follow. I hope you don't mind. |
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02/06/2019 02:03:13 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
John, I've taken the liberty of breaking your most recent block of words into separate paragraphs to make it easier to follow. I hope you don't mind. |
Thanks Robert. |
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02/06/2019 03:29:10 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Hmm.. This is a lot to ponder. And isn't that in and of itself, and the interaction of discussing this altering what would be our separate lives in which we have no control, saying something of that change?
If I'm following your train of thought correctly, I'm really just a spectator in my life. Yet I feel as though on a couple of signifigant occasions I *have* changed the direction my life would have originally taken, intentionally and unintentionally. And isn't just the activity of being sentient empowering us to have choices? And to act, or not on them, at least varying what would have been without our input? |
This is pointing to something far worse than that Jeb, what’s being pointed to here is that there is no you, it really is the worst thing the me can hear. The me doesn’t want what actually is, because accepting that would be to accept that nothing is truly in its control, things are just happening, it would no longer have a purpose. This is total free fall and there’s never going to be a bottom.
The sense of me is just a happening, an object like any other object, it is not solid, it’s constantly changing, transforming, nothing is solid, only thought brings solidity to what’s just a shifting changing energy. Our whole life is an example of this shifting changing manifestation, everything that’s come into our consciousness is an example of this but yet we cling to the belief that there’s a controler inside somewhere that has a meaning and a purpose and that somehow it will find something solid to cling on to, it never will, it can’t because it itself isn’t really a thing.
We believe there’s a center and that center is me, everything seems to rotate around that center, we see through the filter of that center and everything seems to have the flavour of that center. I’m simply saying that that’s not happening and never has. The me will hear this and might think « how dare this not all be about me, this has to be about me, I am the center, I have a purpose, I will grow and develop into something better » it can actually here this message that there isn’t a me and try to get that for itself, every movement it makes is for its own continuation.
We give such great importance to words but all words are born out of the dualistic experience of being an individual, the best they can do is point to what’s actually happening, but there’s no truth in words. When I let my dogs out of the house, they don’t need words or thoughts to know how to have a great time, they just bound down to the field and have fun. Intelligence or intellectual understanding has absolutely nothing to do with the absolute reality of what is.
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02/06/2019 11:43:03 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by jagar:
This is pointing to something far worse than that Jeb, what’s being pointed to here is that there is no you, it really is the worst thing the me can hear. The me doesn’t want what actually is, because accepting that would be to accept that nothing is truly in its control, things are just happening, it would no longer have a purpose. This is total free fall and there’s never going to be a bottom. |
Okay, there is a me, however infinitessimal in the grand picture. The sentience indicates that, right? I think, therefore I am?
Originally posted by jagar:
The sense of me is just a happening, an object like any other object, it is not solid, it’s constantly changing, transforming, nothing is solid, only thought brings solidity to what’s just a shifting changing energy. Our whole life is an example of this shifting changing manifestation, everything that’s come into our consciousness is an example of this but yet we cling to the belief that there’s a controler inside somewhere that has a meaning and a purpose and that somehow it will find something solid to cling on to, it never will, it can’t because it itself isn’t really a thing. |
So wer're kind of just passengers on this train at the mercy of the driver? Or there is no driver, no destination? So what of this concept of self and existence?
Originally posted by jagar:
We believe there’s a center and that center is me, everything seems to rotate around that center, we see through the filter of that center and everything seems to have the flavour of that center. I’m simply saying that that’s not happening and never has. The me will hear this and might think « how dare this not all be about me, this has to be about me, I am the center, I have a purpose, I will grow and develop into something better » it can actually here this message that there isn’t a me and try to get that for itself, every movement it makes is for its own continuation. |
Okay, decidedly NOT on that page. I have zero illusions about being the center of the universe. As someone with an insatiable thrist for knowledge, I truly appreciate the fact that the more I learn helps me to grasp a little bit more of the depth and breadth of what's out there that I have *NO* clue about. I love that!!!!
Originally posted by jagar:
We give such great importance to words but all words are born out of the dualistic experience of being an individual, the best they can do is point to what’s actually happening, but there’s no truth in words. When I let my dogs out of the house, they don’t need words or thoughts to know how to have a great time, they just bound down to the field and have fun. Intelligence or intellectual understanding has absolutely nothing to do with the absolute reality of what is. |
Nah, words not so much for me as the experience. Like your dogs. I really would have to say that my most appreciated aspects of life are rarely spoken but felt. And that I can perceive an experience, reevaluate it and appreciate from a different perspectivbe entirely. It has to be a thing else how could we even understand what we do?
Dude.... You make me think too hard. I think I sprained my head.... LOL!
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02/07/2019 04:00:33 AM · #35 |
Ah yes Descartes « je pense donc je suis » Decartes seemed to believed in a separate God that govenered over the universe and all that is and he also seemed to believe in free will. Although after being threatened by the church the same fate as Galilio he didn’t have much of a choice in what he voiced and published, who could blame him. So should you believe Descartes or Spinoza or Hume? you don’t really have a choice, it’s the same as choosing between camembert or cheddar.
My favorite quote from Spinoza: in the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause and this last by another cause and so on to infinity.
There’s no place for a you in what is.
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02/07/2019 10:54:38 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by jagar:
My favorite quote from Spinoza: in the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause and this last by another cause and so on to infinity.
There’s no place for a you in what is. |
Okay.... Then what am I, and why am I under the impression that I exist?
How is it that I find myself in positions where it appears that I must chosse between one thing or the other?
If it is what it is, does that mean my perception of choosing is a foregone conclusion?
I am truly curious about all this.....is it by preordination that we're havig this conversation?
And this specifically, or is it merely a part of a greater thing where us humans ask because it's what we do?
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02/07/2019 12:05:08 PM · #37 |
Not far from my home, the Columbia River flows toward the Pacific Ocean. The molecules of water involved constantly change with fresh ones arriving from upstream, nearby ones shifting in endless turmoil, some evaporating along the way, and others departing downstream. From instant to instant, it changes completely when considered close up and briefly, but appears very unified when considered from further away over longer time. The fundamental difference involves the degree of abstraction used, and both views are entirely valid simultaneously.
I enjoyed my philosophy classes. And I eventually decided to accept the reality of many simultaneous levels of abstraction being valid and useful for various purposes. (That has a lot of applicability to photography, but that is a different topic for another time.)
Some may argue that constant change means the river does not really exist. But people really do drown in the cold water of the Columbia, whether certain philosophers think it exists or not.
Our lives are indeed dramatically affected by things we don't control ("like the color of my skin or the day that I grow old" as Paul Simon sang). Our lives also can be dramatically affected by what we do, whatever the motivation or causation.
We can enjoy swimming in the river of life, and we can also enjoy sitting on the bank and watching philosophers argue about whether the river exists.
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02/07/2019 12:25:49 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by bob350:
Some may argue that constant change means the river does not really exist. But people really do drown in the cold water of the Columbia, whether certain philosophers think it exists or not. |
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02/07/2019 03:02:34 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by jagar:
My favorite quote from Spinoza: in the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause and this last by another cause and so on to infinity.
There’s no place for a you in what is. |
Okay.... Then what am I, and why am I under the impression that I exist?
There’s an experience of me and an experience of everything that’s not me, it feels very real, there seems to be no doubt about its authenticity. Fundamentally that experience is dualistic, disappointing and dissatisfying so there is a search for something that is whole and complete, we call this life. Normally this search is in worldly things, material, emotional, sometimes though it’s for truth, it’s all the same and makes no difference. That sense of being a separate me isn’t really happening, it’s just a thought, a misunderstanding, it has no more truth than the pink elephant that you have just thought about. Is the tv screen really the film that’s happening upon it or is it the black glass, the film seems so real but it disappears every time the tv is turned off. No matter what has happened and changed in your life something has always been the same.
How is it that I find myself in positions where it appears that I must chosse between one thing or the other?
Because you believe and experience yourself as a separate me.
If it is what it is, does that mean my perception of choosing is a foregone conclusion?
If it’s felt like there’s a you, yes
I am truly curious about all this.....is it by preordination that we're havig this conversation?
It’s coming out of no thing and being read by no one.
And this specifically, or is it merely a part of a greater thing where us humans ask because it's what we do? |
If we feel separate we seek, nothing will ever satisfy because nothing what the me considers good can last, no knowledge, no experience, can fill the bottomless pit of duality. |
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02/07/2019 04:11:55 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by jagar:
My favorite quote from Spinoza: in the mind there is no absolute or free will; but the mind is determined to wish this or that by a cause, which has also been determined by another cause and this last by another cause and so on to infinity.
There’s no place for a you in what is. |
Okay.... Then what am I, and why am I under the impression that I exist?
There’s an experience of me and an experience of everything that’s not me, it feels very real, there seems to be no doubt about its authenticity. Fundamentally that experience is dualistic, disappointing and dissatisfying so there is a search for something that is whole and complete, we call this life. Normally this search is in worldly things, material, emotional, sometimes though it’s for truth, it’s all the same and makes no difference. That sense of being a separate me isn’t really happening, it’s just a thought, a misunderstanding, it has no more truth than the pink elephant that you have just thought about. Is the tv screen really the film that’s happening upon it or is it the black glass, the film seems so real but it disappears every time the tv is turned off. No matter what has happened and changed in your life something has always been the same.
How is it that I find myself in positions where it appears that I must chosse between one thing or the other?
Because you believe and experience yourself as a separate me.
If it is what it is, does that mean my perception of choosing is a foregone conclusion?
If it’s felt like there’s a you, yes
I am truly curious about all this.....is it by preordination that we're havig this conversation?
It’s coming out of no thing and being read by no one.
And this specifically, or is it merely a part of a greater thing where us humans ask because it's what we do? |
If we feel separate we seek, nothing will ever satisfy because nothing what the me considers good can last, no knowledge, no experience, can fill the bottomless pit of duality. |
At this point, what I'd like is a chair a couple feet away from you, in a nice medium shady back yard with moderate temp and no rain, where I could just absorb some answers and then ask new questions, again....absorb answers, repeat.
Even at 63 years old, and having had one or two conversations like this, I find myself fascinated. The biggest hurdle I have to overcome is my own internal propensity to say, "Well, THAT doesn't make sense!" and then try to equate how I would assimilate the idea.
Should you happen to find yourself in south-central Pennsylvania, I will feed you, ply you with drink, and provide you with a place to stay if we can continue this in person some day.
That is, as long as it's part of what is to be.
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02/07/2019 04:27:18 PM · #41 |
Jeb, the fact that we have a quality or condition that we call "self-awareness" neither increases or decreases the "reality" of our existence, nor does the fact of our self-awareness contribute any level of "meaning" to our existence.
Come on up here and we can have this discussion any time, I'm an adequate stand-in for John in his absence (assuming he exists at all) :-) |
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02/08/2019 10:35:03 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Jeb, the fact that we have a quality or condition that we call "self-awareness" neither increases or decreases the "reality" of our existence, |
Well, it certainly does to me. The perception alone makes a reality for me.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
nor does the fact of our self-awareness contribute any level of "meaning" to our existence. |
Funny thing that..... I don't necessarily feel that my existence has any meaning for anyone or anything else unless they think so. One perceives, therefore the perceived entity exists, at least in some way.
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Come on up here and we can have this discussion any time, I'm an adequate stand-in for John in his absence (assuming he exists at all) :-) |
Been there, had fun, but something tells me I'd like to fall off a barstool next to John.
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02/08/2019 12:32:10 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Jeb, the fact that we have a quality or condition that we call "self-awareness" neither increases or decreases the "reality" of our existence, |
Well, it certainly does to me. The perception alone makes a reality for me. |
So your existence is more "real" than, say, the existence of an earthworm? |
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02/08/2019 03:05:55 PM · #44 |
What seemed to create a chattering chock here, and I use seemed and happen with a pinch of salt because nothing actually happened, was when for some reason it was known (also not the right word) that absolutely everything that could be thought about wasn’t my doing. What I mean is that all the info that this body mind had and could ever have, was given to me, nothing that was being perceived by the senses could be explained if I hadn’t been told what it is. All the concepts i had where not my own. Without input into the machine by sources that I had no control over, there could be no perceiving of me and all that was not me. So what’s left when it’s seen that nothing is you? what’s left when you know that who’ve you’ve thought yourself to be is only handed down thought? There’s only one thing left and it’s totally empty yet completely full, there’s no space in it for knowledge, good or bad or a me.
What is can’t be known, it’s not in thought but yet it’s constantly happening, you’ve never not been it and it’s never not been you. |
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02/08/2019 07:49:14 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by jagar:
So what’s left when it’s seen that nothing is you? what’s left when you know that who’ve you’ve thought yourself to be is only handed down thought? |
collage |
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02/08/2019 07:54:47 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by jagar:
So what’s left when it’s seen that nothing is you? what’s left when you know that who’ve you’ve thought yourself to be is only handed down thought? |
collage |
Or collagen ...
Message edited by author 2019-02-08 19:57:24. |
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02/08/2019 08:42:31 PM · #47 |
| youse guys has spent too much time in collage. |
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02/08/2019 10:57:37 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by jagar:
So what’s left when it’s seen that nothing is you? what’s left when you know that who’ve you’ve thought yourself to be is only handed down thought? |
collage |
Or collagen ...
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 youse guys has spent too much time in collage. |
what's left is photography
all I've got is a photograph and I realize you're not coming back anymore |
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02/09/2019 10:29:56 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Jeb, the fact that we have a quality or condition that we call "self-awareness" neither increases or decreases the "reality" of our existence, |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Well, it certainly does to me. The perception alone makes a reality for me. |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
So your existence is more "real" than, say, the existence of an earthworm? |
Of course. Again, to me. As I'm not the earthworm.
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02/09/2019 10:34:24 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by jagar:
What seemed to create a chattering chock here, and I use seemed and happen with a pinch of salt because nothing actually happened, was when for some reason it was known (also not the right word) that absolutely everything that could be thought about wasn’t my doing. What I mean is that all the info that this body mind had and could ever have, was given to me, nothing that was being perceived by the senses could be explained if I hadn’t been told what it is. All the concepts i had where not my own. Without input into the machine by sources that I had no control over, there could be no perceiving of me and all that was not me. So what’s left when it’s seen that nothing is you? what’s left when you know that who’ve you’ve thought yourself to be is only handed down thought? There’s only one thing left and it’s totally empty yet completely full, there’s no space in it for knowledge, good or bad or a me. |
What is sentience?
Originally posted by jagar:
What is can’t be known, it’s not in thought but yet it’s constantly happening, you’ve never not been it and it’s never not been you. |
But how can I know this if I believe that I exist? I don't dispute that I'm a product of my guidance, but my exact reactions, responses, and impulses cannot necessarily be foretold. Yes, reasonable predictions can be made, but nobody knows for sure. I accept, o9f course, that I will do and feel certain ways about certain things, but the same way that I was created casn be altered by other input variables.
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