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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Announcements >> On Two Wheels Results Recalculated
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01/18/2019 11:36:33 PM · #1
The results of the " On Two Wheels: The Terror or the Joy" challenge have been recalculated, due to the disqualification of the former blue ribbon winner. The entry illegally combines two images. One image, an image of falling rain, was intended to function as a texture. However, this image functions as a picture of rain rather than a texture – a depiction of a physical thing in the scene that did not exist in the original.

Congratulations to the new ribbon winners and honorable mentions.
01/19/2019 01:42:56 AM · #2
I used a texture image in OVERLAY. Nothing that broke a rule in Standard editing.
I did exactly the same on previous pictures and funny, using the same texture image.

Unfair!!!
01/19/2019 02:04:22 AM · #3
I feel perception has a large part to play. No one could reasonably look at your image and feel the rain is a texture, you would naturally assume the rain was part of the underlying image. Now if you overlayed the rain in the exact same manner over say, an indoor scene then perhaps it could be seen as a texture.
01/19/2019 02:24:54 AM · #4
If this is legal and validated:

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then... how is his Bicycle one not?

Please explain.
01/19/2019 07:38:20 AM · #5
I had this image disqualified for adding a shadow.

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Not much different than what you have done Georges. The SC sometimes has to make difficult decisions. No complaints from me. It just a game! I agree that your added "rain" significantly changes the image. I feel overlays are used to accent the theme. Not change the representation of the image. Sorry.
01/19/2019 09:08:59 AM · #6
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/160000-164999/163081/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231212.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/160000-164999/163081/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231212.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' Original straight out of camera
I got the rain more visible using Vivenza structure.
Used this template in overlay mode with only 8% opacity.
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/160000-164999/163081/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231211.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/160000-164999/163081/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231211.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The original shot was taken in pouring rain using a 85mm from a fair distance.
3 hours shooting in the rain for a DQ. I wouldn't even bother entering this type of shots anymore...maybe not even other challenges.
01/19/2019 11:16:57 AM · #7
Originally posted by Lydia:

If this is legal and validated:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2701/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1223466.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2701/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1223466.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

then... how is his Bicycle one not?

Please explain.

Good question.
01/19/2019 11:24:16 AM · #8
Then again, I'd love to see the original and the overlay on this one (validated blue ribbon).

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The whole "texture" thing is quite tricky IMO. I've seen many I thought added a tad too much (especially some in the "sky" area). Tough job being SC on these.
01/19/2019 11:58:36 AM · #9
No reason for a witch hunt. I agree with the decision (it looks like real rain and not texture in the edited version and it adds an element which is not in the original image) but it's ok, move on to the next challenge. We are like a family :)
01/19/2019 12:17:36 PM · #10
We are quite liberal nowadays in how textures can be used but we still use the rules as a reference point. Are theses textures clearly discernible as textures? (Applying it overlay mode isn’t a get-out, it’s the result that counts).

When textures are used in this way, please understand that you are right on the edge of the envelope - sometimes you’ll be just on the OK side and other times you won’t. Given the judgement call we as SC have to make, sometimes we might call those very marginal calls one way on one image and another way on a different image - it really comes down to whether the texture can be discerned as a texture. If we can’t discern it as a texture, even when we know it is, the line has been crossed.

These cases help everybody locate the edge of the envelope but unfortunately it’s not an entirely sharp boundary.

The fact that one of these examples was DQ’d and the other wasn’t demonstrates how marginal these calls can be - especially when human beings have to make an interpretation of, and judgement against, the rules as written.

If we don’t want to risk DQs then we perhaps need to give ourselves a little more distance from the edge of the envelope.

We are much more liberal since the latest rule sets were introduced and I think we have far fewer of these cases nowadays - which is a good thing. We just to note these cases for experience and move on - with a bit more clarity on where the limits of the envelope might be.
01/20/2019 12:03:08 AM · #11
One thing that's worth pointing out is that, to a large extent, our rulings on textures/overlays are based on how obvious it is that they ARE a texture/overlay. So, for example, we are very liberal in allowing "light leaks" and other various overlays that are frequently used to promote an antique film look, because these aren't fooling anybody; it's clear what's been done, and the voters can decide if they want to reward or punish the effect. But when an overlay or texture is used in such a way that it becomes essentially photorealistic, to the point that the viewer can't easily determine whether the image in its entirety is "real" or not, that becomes a problem.

In Georges' "Little Rain Riding Hood" the added streaks were obviously enough a texture overlay that we validated the image, albeit not without some internal discussion. With the current, DQ'd image the overall effect was just too darned realistic.

That's the grey area we have to work in: the alternatives would be to go back to banning texture overlays OR to permit multi-image compositing in Standard Editing, which we don't see happening anytime soon...

Message edited by author 2019-01-20 00:09:58.
01/20/2019 03:35:21 AM · #12
Thank you Bear_Music for a clear open minded reply. Those texture things are and will always stay in the gray working area. The texture I used is not even an photo. Where or when can a texture be used that it doesn't add something to an image? this is not possible without using extended editing. EVERY time we use a texture, we have to apply it over the image (overlay), thus adding something that was not there in the first place. I think that adding a texture shouldn't be allowed in standard editing.
And yes it was raining when I took that picture.

Message edited by author 2019-01-20 03:35:54.
01/20/2019 03:35:35 AM · #13
Originally posted by glad2badad:

The whole "texture" thing is quite tricky IMO. I've seen many I thought added a tad too much (especially some in the "sky" area). Tough job being SC on these.


Barry, it’s not about how much texture is added - that’s a photographer’s choice, it can be as firmly applied as they like and as prominent as they like. It’s really just about whether they are discernible as a texture (or not).

Adding a texture (strongly) into a sky is not at all an issue - unless perhaps if it were a cloud ‘texture’ that could not be discerned as a texture.

I’m sure many of us have been recipients of your low votes (with explanatory comment) for adding a prominent texture but there is nothing bordering on the illegal about it. Addding ‘too much texture’ does not give SC a tough job. I suppose there is the ‘is it a composite? Is it a texture?’ argument, but the nature of textures - scratches, weaves, rusts etc tends to negate that risk.
01/20/2019 04:10:25 AM · #14
I IMMEDIATELY noticed Georges was missing a ribbon. :P

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01/20/2019 10:29:07 AM · #15
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Then again, I'd love to see the original and the overlay on this one (validated blue ribbon).

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The whole "texture" thing is quite tricky IMO. I've seen many I thought added a tad too much (especially some in the "sky" area). Tough job being SC on these.


FWIW, here is the original. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/59029/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231228.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/59029/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231228.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' then I adjusted exposure, did some minor cloning, desat, used Silver NIK and yes horror of horrors, used an Analog NIK filter to give Nikolai, a Victorian-era gentleman, a somewhat aged photo. The creator of Nikolai was already in full costume and makeup; I did not add any of it.
01/20/2019 12:02:37 PM · #16
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

I IMMEDIATELY noticed Georges was missing a ribbon. :P

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Thanks for the cheer up, Ken :)
01/20/2019 12:04:15 PM · #17
Originally posted by GeorgesBogaert:

... And yes it was raining when I took that picture.

But certainly not to the degree as depicted in the final result.
01/20/2019 12:04:37 PM · #18
Originally posted by snaffles:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Then again, I'd love to see the original and the overlay on this one (validated blue ribbon).

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2743/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1228050.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/2000-2999/2743/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1228050.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

The whole "texture" thing is quite tricky IMO. I've seen many I thought added a tad too much (especially some in the "sky" area). Tough job being SC on these.


FWIW, here is the original. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/59029/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231228.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/55000-59999/59029/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1231228.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' then I adjusted exposure, did some minor cloning, desat, used Silver NIK and yes horror of horrors, used an Analog NIK filter to give Nikolai, a Victorian-era gentleman, a somewhat aged photo. The creator of Nikolai was already in full costume and makeup; I did not add any of it.

Thanks for sharing. Appreciate it.
01/20/2019 12:07:49 PM · #19
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

The whole "texture" thing is quite tricky IMO. I've seen many I thought added a tad too much (especially some in the "sky" area). Tough job being SC on these.


Barry, it’s not about how much texture is added - that’s a photographer’s choice, it can be as firmly applied as they like and as prominent as they like. It’s really just about whether they are discernible as a texture (or not).

Adding a texture (strongly) into a sky is not at all an issue - unless perhaps if it were a cloud ‘texture’ that could not be discerned as a texture.

I’m sure many of us have been recipients of your low votes (with explanatory comment) for adding a prominent texture but there is nothing bordering on the illegal about it. Addding ‘too much texture’ does not give SC a tough job. I suppose there is the ‘is it a composite? Is it a texture?’ argument, but the nature of textures - scratches, weaves, rusts etc tends to negate that risk.

I have seen some with textures in the sky that made it difficult to discern whether it was "real" grey skies / clouds versus a texture. Kudos for some I suppose ...

As for voting, I apply a fairly wide spectrum of votes (unlike those that refuse to vote under a 5). If I like a photo and a prominent texture has been applied I will knock a point or two off if I don't like the texture effect (and usually I don't - but not always).
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