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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> DPL 4: COMMENTS AND OBSERVATIONS
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06/21/2018 03:14:03 PM · #1
Originally posted by nam:

Originally posted by hopper:

. . . I'll happily give honest critiques of images whether or not I'm competing in the same challenge.


For what it's worth, so will I.


As will I.. This is a part of DPC that I really love.
06/21/2018 02:45:02 PM · #2
Originally posted by hopper:

. . . I'll happily give honest critiques of images whether or not I'm competing in the same challenge.


For what it's worth, so will I.
06/21/2018 02:32:17 PM · #3
Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by tanguera:

One of the best parts of DPC is how willing everyone is to help each other.


yup, I've been away from this site for a long time but I think we can all agree that helping each other perfect our craft is a lot more rewarding than winning the DPL (and I did win WPL3 :). No one's looking to screw anyone else out of the scores they deserve. I'll happily give honest critiques of images whether or not I'm competing in the same challenge.


As would I, but I didn't want to speak for everyone. We can ALSO be VERY competitive :)
06/21/2018 01:44:43 PM · #4
Originally posted by tanguera:

One of the best parts of DPC is how willing everyone is to help each other.


yup, I've been away from this site for a long time but I think we can all agree that helping each other perfect our craft is a lot more rewarding than winning the DPL (and I did win WPL4 :). No one's looking to screw anyone else out of the scores they deserve. I'll happily give honest critiques of images whether or not I'm competing in the same challenge.

Message edited by author 2018-06-22 12:24:51.
06/21/2018 01:08:48 PM · #5
Originally posted by atupdate:

It gives DPL participants an unfair advantage over non-participants. Once I got used to not entering for awhile, it became easier and easier to not even look at what challenges are posted.

Tim


One of the best parts of DPC is how willing everyone is to help each other. This has ALWAYS been the case, regardless of DPL. Anyone is able to post a "can I get some feedback" thread for any image they want, at any time. Just because there is now a league where people can get this with their team in no way prevents anyone NOT in the league from requesting help from the community.

Clearly, the pool of available people to give feedback will be reduced because the pool of non-participants is smaller.

So it is incorrect to qualify this helpfulness as "unfair".
06/21/2018 11:20:25 AM · #6
Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by atupdate:

Originally posted by GeneralE:


In the interest of fairness (and not giving away good ideas?) we suggest strongly urge that during the submission period any such discussion of the challenge topic be restricted to the private team threads rather than the public forum.


And how does this help new members that are not on a DPL team or joins after DPL starts? All it takes is a few DNMC comments and you lose someone for good.

Tim


Do you think the thread that GeneralE is referring to prevents DNMC comments?


If past DPLs are any evidence I would say that anything that in any way talks about what does or does not meet the category description, what may or may not be disqualified, or anything else about how something is going to be voted on would qualify as "not for public consumption" during league play.
06/21/2018 10:27:05 AM · #7
Originally posted by atupdate:

And how does this help new members that are not on a DPL team or joins after DPL starts? All it takes is a few DNMC comments and you lose someone for good.

Tim

Be thankful if you can get anybody to comment at all! The votes and comments have been few and far between recently, which is one of the reasons the DPL is being greeted with such enthusiasm.
06/21/2018 09:34:51 AM · #8
Originally posted by atupdate:

Originally posted by GeneralE:


In the interest of fairness (and not giving away good ideas?) we suggest strongly urge that during the submission period any such discussion of the challenge topic be restricted to the private team threads rather than the public forum.


And how does this help new members that are not on a DPL team or joins after DPL starts? All it takes is a few DNMC comments and you lose someone for good.

Tim


Do you think the thread that GeneralE is referring to prevents DNMC comments?
06/21/2018 09:11:14 AM · #9
Originally posted by GeneralE:


In the interest of fairness (and not giving away good ideas?) we suggest strongly urge that during the submission period any such discussion of the challenge topic be restricted to the private team threads rather than the public forum.


And how does this help new members that are not on a DPL team or joins after DPL starts? All it takes is a few DNMC comments and you lose someone for good.

Tim
06/20/2018 10:29:40 PM · #10
Originally posted by posthumous:



My team's only requirements are a blood oath and a license to kill.


yeah. lots of blood.
06/20/2018 09:50:55 PM · #11
Originally posted by GeneralE:

One thing to add to the main announcement ... most people here are aware that when a new challenge is posted there is often a thread started discussing the description, what might be an appropriate or inappropriate subject, etc.

In the interest of fairness (and not giving away good ideas?) we suggest strongly urge that during the submission period any such discussion of the challenge topic be restricted to the private team threads rather than the public forum.


But.... but.... how can we steal borrow good ideas if everyone does that?? :-)
06/20/2018 12:42:42 PM · #12
One thing to add to the main announcement ... most people here are aware that when a new challenge is posted there is often a thread started discussing the description, what might be an appropriate or inappropriate subject, etc.

In the interest of fairness (and not giving away good ideas?) we suggest strongly urge that during the submission period any such discussion of the challenge topic be restricted to the private team threads rather than the public forum.

Message edited by Bear_Music - emphasis added.
06/20/2018 11:38:26 AM · #13
Originally posted by blindjustice:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Ja-9:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It seems to me that Team Leaders might encourage ALL their Team members to buy in for the duration of DPL, since you can buy a month at a time for 5 bucks a pop. The significant advantage of doing so would be to have a workshop into which they can post their in-progress challenge entries.


We’ve sort of made it a requirement to be on our team...kind of, sort of, not - but yes???? Here is where the thumb pinchers come in handy!!


My team's only requirements are a blood oath and a license to kill.


Our team is here to clean up after the carnage. Like a photographic Servpro. And take names.


That’s alright...we just leave the picked bones behind...wink
06/20/2018 11:33:22 AM · #14
I love all the trash talk and enthusiasm, but just to keep the message in front of incoming optics, I will repost it here:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

After way too long an absence, Digital Photography League is finally back in play :-) This seems like a good time to touch on some issues that will greatly affect the future of DPL and, indeed, DPC going forward.

********************

VOTING

To long-term success, it's vital that participants also VOTE. It seems obvious, but we have seen a dramatic drop over the last couple of years in voting statistics. And the problem with low voting numbers is that outlier votes (the odd 1 or 2 vote) carry a disproportionate weight. Beyond that, if the number of votes given in a challenge is lower than the number of entries (which has often been the case lately) well, that's just plain discouraging to participants. While we are aware that some members offer as a reason for not voting that they "cannot be objective", we believe at the current level of participation that simply doesn't hold water. We can't survive that way. If you're gonna enter, you really need to vote. And of course, any and all votes from non-entrants are always welcome. Internet connections, pretty much across the board, are much faster these days, so there's really no good reason not to vote.

DPL is set up such that players are not given the opportunity to vote on their teammates' images. In order for DPL to be successful, it is critical that players not only vote on the rest of the images in the challenge, but they do their best to vote all images fairly. The practice of giving low scores to all the “good” images in a challenge in the hopes of improving the standing of ones own “good” image will not be tolerated. The widespread use of this technique will bring league play to a screeching halt. The SC will do our best to monitor voting and take swift action if we find any irregularities.

In short, then, for DPL to remain viable and healthy, we NEED all participants to compete in good faith. There's nothing at stake here but virtual ribbons and badges. We encourage (even demand, as much as that's possible in this environment) all of you to vote happily and cheerfully, using the golden rule, to recognize quality and effort wherever you find it without regard for how fairly you feel your own image is being treated.

Can we do that? It's ABSOLUTELY the secret to the health of DPC/DPL going forward; friendly, encouraging support of all individuals. Let's give it our collective best!

TEAM COMMUNICATIONS

Each DPL team will have its own, dedicated private thread once the league goes live on the 25th. Every team is encouraged to use that thread to bond & communicate & grow together. You may discuss your images and how to improve them at will. You may offer whatever specific processing suggestions you have, including step-by-step instructions for very specific effects.

What you may NOT do is process a teammate's image for them. We have to take this on faith, since it can't really be verified, but PLEASE don't do this :-)

You also may NOT use your private forums to discuss entries made by non-team members, particularly with an idea to how they should be voted upon. This should go without saying, but we are saying it here :-)

SUMMARY

If we all follow the Golden Rule and treat all competitors the way we wish to be treated ourselves, we're going to have a great time, and DPL will become a regular feature in DPC programming!
06/20/2018 11:17:05 AM · #15
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Ja-9:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It seems to me that Team Leaders might encourage ALL their Team members to buy in for the duration of DPL, since you can buy a month at a time for 5 bucks a pop. The significant advantage of doing so would be to have a workshop into which they can post their in-progress challenge entries.


We’ve sort of made it a requirement to be on our team...kind of, sort of, not - but yes???? Here is where the thumb pinchers come in handy!!


My team's only requirements are a blood oath and a license to kill.


Our team is here to clean up after the carnage. Like a photographic Servpro. And take names.
06/18/2018 05:21:17 PM · #16
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Ja-9:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It seems to me that Team Leaders might encourage ALL their Team members to buy in for the duration of DPL, since you can buy a month at a time for 5 bucks a pop. The significant advantage of doing so would be to have a workshop into which they can post their in-progress challenge entries.


We’ve sort of made it a requirement to be on our team...kind of, sort of, not - but yes???? Here is where the thumb pinchers come in handy!!


My team's only requirements are a blood oath and a license to kill.


Love your enthusiasm!
06/18/2018 04:54:51 PM · #17
Originally posted by Ja-9:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It seems to me that Team Leaders might encourage ALL their Team members to buy in for the duration of DPL, since you can buy a month at a time for 5 bucks a pop. The significant advantage of doing so would be to have a workshop into which they can post their in-progress challenge entries.


We’ve sort of made it a requirement to be on our team...kind of, sort of, not - but yes???? Here is where the thumb pinchers come in handy!!


My team's only requirements are a blood oath and a license to kill.
06/18/2018 09:37:25 AM · #18
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by atupdate:

It is this part of the DPL that prompted me not to enter any challenge during DPL. It gives DPL participants an unfair advantage over non-participants. Once I got used to not entering for awhile, it became easier and easier to not even look at what challenges are posted.

Tim

You can do all of this with anyone you like via PM, just not in a dedicated thread. Pretty much the same rules apply -- you can accept all the advice/suggestions you want, as long as you actually edit the image yourself.

In a way, you have the advantage in that your advisor can choose whether or not to vote on your entry while team members are completely blocked from doing so.


Once upon a time, there used to be side challenges here. many in fact. These small groups of people would comment on their own side challenge entries. Proper ethics would be not to vote on any images you see before the challenge (official weekly challenges). There was many that would help others improve and learn.
06/18/2018 09:28:39 AM · #19
We're all bought in and good to go for the year ... so do another in the winter, eh?! LOL

So I'm assuming that the team rosters can now be considered final? No seeding issues or nothing?

For other teams who are wondering about easy of communication and notifications on team threads, our team abandoned the dedicated thread very early on last year in favor of a group PM for the course of the season. It gets long, but we didn't have to monkey with thread notifications and you could actually respond via email if need be. Worked so well that we started an "Until DPL 4" discussion that has been in use ever since, currently at 51 pages. LOL
06/18/2018 08:48:38 AM · #20
Originally posted by atupdate:

It is this part of the DPL that prompted me not to enter any challenge during DPL. It gives DPL participants an unfair advantage over non-participants. Once I got used to not entering for awhile, it became easier and easier to not even look at what challenges are posted.

Tim

You can do all of this with anyone you like via PM, just not in a dedicated thread. Pretty much the same rules apply -- you can accept all the advice/suggestions you want, as long as you actually edit the image yourself.

In a way, you have the advantage in that your advisor can choose whether or not to vote on your entry while team members are completely blocked from doing so.
06/18/2018 08:44:02 AM · #21
I certainly understand how you feel, but given that there exists thousands of hours of free photoshop educational videos on youtube and countless other photography forums and peer groups, I'm not sure you can make a very strong argument for an unfair advantage. You could make a much stronger argument for unfair advantage for people living in especially scenic parts of the world, or people with particularly expensive gear, but no one seems to mind that too much.

It's your right to not participate, but I think you should. How happy would you be to take down all the cheaters? :)

Originally posted by atupdate:

It gives DPL participants an unfair advantage over non-participants.
06/18/2018 08:23:49 AM · #22
[quote=Bear_Music]

TEAM COMMUNICATIONS

Each DPL team will have its own, dedicated private thread once the league goes live on the 25th. Every team is encouraged to use that thread to bond & communicate & grow together. You may discuss your images and how to improve them at will. You may offer whatever specific processing suggestions you have, including step-by-step instructions for very specific effects.

What you may NOT do is process a teammate's image for them. We have to take this on faith, since it can't really be verified, but PLEASE don't do this :-)

You also may NOT use your private forums to discuss entries made by non-team members, particularly with an idea to how they should be voted upon. This should go without saying, but we are saying it here :-) [/unquote]


It is this part of the DPL that prompted me not to enter any challenge during DPL. It gives DPL participants an unfair advantage over non-participants. Once I got used to not entering for awhile, it became easier and easier to not even look at what challenges are posted.

Tim

Message edited by author 2018-06-18 08:24:21.
06/18/2018 07:55:13 AM · #23
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It seems to me that Team Leaders might encourage ALL their Team members to buy in for the duration of DPL, since you can buy a month at a time for 5 bucks a pop. The significant advantage of doing so would be to have a workshop into which they can post their in-progress challenge entries.


So would two months do it for all the rounds? I'm sure the answer is there for me to ferret out, but I'm feeling very lazy this morning.

I guess mid-June to mid-August would do it for most . . . with the possibility of needing to add a month for play-offs. Schedule is right at the top of the League information.

Message edited by author 2018-06-18 08:02:45.
06/18/2018 03:16:40 AM · #24
Originally posted by neenee1999:

Was wondering when we were going to do this again! Sounds like fun!


Very soon ?..?.!!!
06/18/2018 02:11:32 AM · #25
Thank you Robert for your positive input regarding voting and all. I would like to add one thing: last DPL (2015) I noticed that voting decreased dramatically once the first round ended, so in the semi-finals and in the finals the number of participation really dropped. It was like people were not interested because they didn’t make it to those finals. I really hope all participant keep on voting till the end, also when they are not directly involved anymore.
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