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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Proposed Modification/Renaming of Challenge Rules
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Showing posts 126 - 150 of 219, (reverse)
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04/04/2016 12:25:14 PM · #126
But if you allow cropping and incremental rotation, then you are allowing straightening. And if you allow cropping, those who want to can crop away as much of their image as they like.

Keep it simple. In camera only with whatever limitations or exploitations that camera brings. Frame shoot resize and post. I'm for that. For 5% of the challenges in a year,
04/04/2016 12:39:40 PM · #127
Great job SC! :) Cheers to you on all the behind the scenes work involved.

As for the minimal set, I'm one to vote for No cropping. It we have one extreme, no cropped caps the other side. It's nice to see what position the photog is shooting from and how extreme the angle can get. Shooting with a 100mp back and cropping into 2mp , creates a whole different view. Zoom with your feet kids ;) The point of the viewfinder not showing 100% of the view , how I would've loved to perfectly crop the shot I took for "Crooked" , to get the edge line in the corner, but knowing that it would open up a different can of worms, my vote is still No.
04/04/2016 12:43:11 PM · #128
Originally posted by Techo:

The point of the viewfinder not showing 100% of the view , how I would've loved to perfectly crop the shot I took for "Crooked" , to get the edge line in the corner, but knowing that it would open up a different can of worms, my vote is still No.


That is an annoying issue. To get it right and then still discover that your camera screwed you. :)

04/04/2016 12:47:54 PM · #129
One more thing about minimal:

I'm curious why we can't submit a RAW image. I know that we can adjust in RAW, but it seems like there's a default button to see if there's been any changes. I know it's up to us to remember to set the camera to jpg, but so many people lose their shot because of forgetting to change the setting. Plus, isn't that the real shot? Without the camera adding extra processing?

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.
04/04/2016 12:49:29 PM · #130
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Techo:

The point of the viewfinder not showing 100% of the view , how I would've loved to perfectly crop the shot I took for "Crooked" , to get the edge line in the corner, but knowing that it would open up a different can of worms, my vote is still No.

That is an annoying issue. To get it right and then still discover that your camera screwed you. :)

That's why we have chimping :-) I'm not aware of any LCD display that doesn't show 100%.
04/04/2016 12:59:17 PM · #131
Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm curious why we can't submit a RAW image. I know that we can adjust in RAW, but it seems like there's a default button to see if there's been any changes. I know it's up to us to remember to set the camera to jpg, but so many people lose their shot because of forgetting to change the setting. Plus, isn't that the real shot? Without the camera adding extra processing?

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.


Two points:

1. The goal of minimal is to make in-camera settings that produce perfection, or as close to it as we can get, and then shoot. It's a "throwback" exercise, and a valuable one.

2. In that context, allowing RAW images forces SC to go through steps in validation that can, and probably would, be disputed by anyone who got DQ'd. For one thing, *I* have my RAW processor set to default to my in-camera settings, but YOU might not. So when your RAW entered the workflow and you accepted it as-is (if you didn't understand enabling the presets) then what YOU ended up with as an entry would be different than what *I* saw when I opened your proof file. It's just a very, very wormy can and it's completely bypassed by requiring JPG originals.

Finally, for anyone who really worries about this, just for Pete's sake remember; EVERY time a Minimal challenge is announced, immediately set your camera to RAW + JPG small. Problem solved. The extra JPGs take very little space and they are FINE for 1200px display purposes, they are bigger than that anyway. If you do this, EVERY image you take is a potential minimal entry. And if we WERE to have Minimal free studies, well then you could do this all the time, and the cost in storage space would be very small.
04/04/2016 01:04:47 PM · #132
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm curious why we can't submit a RAW image. I know that we can adjust in RAW, but it seems like there's a default button to see if there's been any changes. I know it's up to us to remember to set the camera to jpg, but so many people lose their shot because of forgetting to change the setting. Plus, isn't that the real shot? Without the camera adding extra processing?

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.


Two points:

1. The goal of minimal is to make in-camera settings that produce perfection, or as close to it as we can get, and then shoot. It's a "throwback" exercise, and a valuable one.

2. In that context, allowing RAW images forces SC to go through steps in validation that can, and probably would, be disputed by anyone who got DQ'd. For one thing, *I* have my RAW processor set to default to my in-camera settings, but YOU might not. So when your RAW entered the workflow and you accepted it as-is (if you didn't understand enabling the presets) then what YOU ended up with as an entry would be different than what *I* saw when I opened your proof file. It's just a very, very wormy can and it's completely bypassed by requiring JPG originals.

Finally, for anyone who really worries about this, just for Pete's sake remember; EVERY time a Minimal challenge is announced, immediately set your camera to RAW + JPG small. Problem solved. The extra JPGs take very little space and they are FINE for 1200px display purposes, they are bigger than that anyway. If you do this, EVERY image you take is a potential minimal entry. And if we WERE to have Minimal free studies, well then you could do this all the time, and the cost in storage space would be very small.


Ah. I didn't realize that you can set the RAW processor to anything else. That makes sense then. Thank you. I've always wondered.

Also, seconding your point of RAW + small jpg. Melethia told me about that one, and it is really nice. Because then you can post stupid pictures on social media without having to process it first. :) I've just been running out of space really quickly (I shoot too much), so I turned off the small+jpg).
04/04/2016 01:07:39 PM · #133
Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.

Because there is no "default" RAW>JPEG conversion -- you MUST set parameters such as white balance and exposure after the exposure is made -- when shooting directly in JPEG those parameters are all pre-set BEFORE the shutter is actuated.

Just shoot RAW+JPEG when shooting for a Minimal challenge so you can later edit the RAW image for other purposes.

Note that this (shooting RAW+JPEG) is also a good strategy for those who want to batch-convert RAW to DNG -- the simultaneously-shot JPEG can be used for validation, while the RAW image can be discarded once converted to DNG.

Please excuse the slow typing and redundancy ...
04/04/2016 01:36:39 PM · #134
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.

Because there is no "default" RAW>JPEG conversion -- you MUST set parameters such as white balance and exposure after the exposure is made -- when shooting directly in JPEG those parameters are all pre-set BEFORE the shutter is actuated.

Just shoot RAW+JPEG when shooting for a Minimal challenge so you can later edit the RAW image for other purposes.

Note that this (shooting RAW+JPEG) is also a good strategy for those who want to batch-convert RAW to DNG -- the simultaneously-shot JPEG can be used for validation, while the RAW image can be discarded once converted to DNG.

Please excuse the slow typing and redundancy ...


That's what I do, in a minimal challenge I shoot raw plus what I think is the best JPEG setting on my current camera.

I know minimal can sometimes be frustrating but it's that frustration that can help us progress.
04/04/2016 02:20:09 PM · #135
Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by vawendy:

I'm fine with it how it is: but when you can tell if there's been any changes, shouldn't RAW be an option? Just curious.

Because there is no "default" RAW>JPEG conversion -- you MUST set parameters such as white balance and exposure after the exposure is made -- when shooting directly in JPEG those parameters are all pre-set BEFORE the shutter is actuated.

Just shoot RAW+JPEG when shooting for a Minimal challenge so you can later edit the RAW image for other purposes.

Note that this (shooting RAW+JPEG) is also a good strategy for those who want to batch-convert RAW to DNG -- the simultaneously-shot JPEG can be used for validation, while the RAW image can be discarded once converted to DNG.

Please excuse the slow typing and redundancy ...


That's what I do, in a minimal challenge I shoot raw plus what I think is the best JPEG setting on my current camera.

I know minimal can sometimes be frustrating but it's that frustration that can help us progress.


Absolutely. And it gets us to stop being lazy. How many times do you think "I can fix it in processing?" Especially the straightening. And while it's not really a problem straightening in processing, so many times I crop in too close, and then if I need to do a crop for an 8x10, I have to clone things in to get the crop, all because I didn't bother getting it straight. So the rotating compounded things.

It's been a long time since a minimal challenge. But I'm finding myself spending a lot longer on processing than I used to. We need more minimal, regardless of cropping, to keep us grounded.
04/04/2016 02:53:48 PM · #136
One possible clarification and one question:

Many times in minimal editing, I've forgotten to clean my black background and ended up with dust/cat hairs. I know you're thinking sensor dust or a hair that goes across the image. Will newbies think cloning out stray hairs on people/backgrounds be acceptable?

Also, in the Standard Editing:

It had been discussed, at one point, being able to extend the canvas when you rotate something and end up with a white corner. It says that we can clone out anything as long as it's replaced by what would be in the background. Is it still illegal to fill in an empty canvas because of rotating issues?

Message edited by author 2016-04-04 14:54:14.
04/04/2016 03:19:05 PM · #137
Repeat after me:

nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping
nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping
nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping

Then go and vote. hehe

04/04/2016 03:27:54 PM · #138
Originally posted by vawendy:

It had been discussed, at one point, being able to extend the canvas when you rotate something and end up with a white corner. It says that we can clone out anything as long as it's replaced by what would be in the background. Is it still illegal to fill in an empty canvas because of rotating issues?


Yes, this would become legal.
04/04/2016 03:35:38 PM · #139
Originally posted by tanguera:

Originally posted by vawendy:

It had been discussed, at one point, being able to extend the canvas when you rotate something and end up with a white corner. It says that we can clone out anything as long as it's replaced by what would be in the background. Is it still illegal to fill in an empty canvas because of rotating issues?

Yes, this would become legal.

As written, here's the proposed rule:

Originally posted by Standard Editing Rules:

You May: • Use cloning or similar tools to fill in gaps around the perimeters of panoramic photos with appropriate bits to continue the interrupted image.

I'll go tweak that to include rotated images, perspective corrections, and the like. Good question.

This should do it:

Originally posted by Standard Editing Rules:

You May: • Use cloning or similar tools to fill in gaps around the perimeters of panoramic, rotated, perspective-corrected and such photos with appropriate bits to complete the interrupted image.


Message edited by author 2016-04-04 15:39:19.
04/04/2016 03:39:06 PM · #140
Originally posted by herfotoman:

Repeat after me:

nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping
nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping
nocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocroppingnocropping

Then go and vote. hehe


Well... when you put it that way. Vote changed!
04/04/2016 03:41:10 PM · #141
Originally posted by herfotoman:

It may well have been pointed out, but for clarity's sake, change the wording:

"Penalties
• An entry will be disqualified when a majority of the Site Council finds that any of the rules above in the submission rulesets were not followed. "

Thanks.
04/04/2016 07:04:51 PM · #142
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Techo:

The point of the viewfinder not showing 100% of the view , how I would've loved to perfectly crop the shot I took for "Crooked" , to get the edge line in the corner, but knowing that it would open up a different can of worms, my vote is still No.

That is an annoying issue. To get it right and then still discover that your camera screwed you. :)

That's why we have chimping :-) I'm not aware of any LCD display that doesn't show 100%.


Ah yes! I wondered what I forgot to add ;) I'm a bit scatter-brained these days. Yes, chimping helps a whole lot.
04/05/2016 01:33:25 AM · #143
Originally posted by Techo:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Techo:

The point of the viewfinder not showing 100% of the view , how I would've loved to perfectly crop the shot I took for "Crooked" , to get the edge line in the corner, but knowing that it would open up a different can of worms, my vote is still No.

That is an annoying issue. To get it right and then still discover that your camera screwed you. :)

That's why we have chimping :-) I'm not aware of any LCD display that doesn't show 100%.


Ah yes! I wondered what I forgot to add ;) I'm a bit scatter-brained these days. Yes, chimping helps a whole lot.


Unless you have a Leica M240 Edition 60 ;-)
04/05/2016 07:54:49 AM · #144
All square 85 to 85 in the ongoing poll. Never thought this rule set would draw so much attention.
04/05/2016 10:46:43 AM · #145
Originally posted by insteps:

All square 85 to 85 in the ongoing poll. Never thought this rule set would draw so much attention.

It IS remarkable, isn't it? "No" in the lead now, 88-87.
04/05/2016 10:59:07 AM · #146
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by insteps:

All square 85 to 85 in the ongoing poll. Never thought this rule set would draw so much attention.

It IS remarkable, isn't it? "No" in the lead now, 88-87.


I'm as guilty as they come, but I'll point it out anyway....

that's more than double the votes a typical challenge gets.

Message edited by author 2016-04-05 10:59:37.
04/05/2016 11:20:25 AM · #147
Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by insteps:

All square 85 to 85 in the ongoing poll. Never thought this rule set would draw so much attention.

It IS remarkable, isn't it? "No" in the lead now, 88-87.


I'm as guilty as they come, but I'll point it out anyway....

that's more than double the votes a typical challenge gets.


So... Change the flow:

Before you will be allowed to vote in the poll, you will be redirected to 10 random minimal images on which you must comment. Each comment must be at least 20 words, and we'll be checking for "copy&paste" rascals. An extra poll vote will be made available to you for each comment that refers to the cropping rule. herfotoman will get 150 extra poll votes per comment.

04/05/2016 11:23:39 AM · #148
Originally posted by LN13:

that's more than double the votes a typical challenge gets.

Yes, but the GOOD news is, this is a sign that members are still reading the forums and they still care :-)
04/05/2016 06:04:18 PM · #149
That poll is quite something.
The sad part is that no matter which rule will eventually be accepted, roughly 50% of DPCers will be disappointed :-(
04/05/2016 07:00:57 PM · #150
Originally posted by Beetle:

That poll is quite something.
The sad part is that no matter which rule will eventually be accepted, roughly 50% of DPCers will be disappointed :-(

I don't think that's a good way to see it. I, for example, am OK with it whichever way it ends up going. I won't be "disappointed" either way, although I do have a preference. Bear in mind also that whichever way we c end up framing the rule, we'll have the option of using the other approach as a flagged rule when warranted. So, for example, if Minimal stays "no cropping" we might still choose to flag it "cropping allowed" for a minimal wildlife challenge.
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