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DPChallenge Forums >> Administrator Announcements >> Proposed Modification/Renaming of Challenge Rules
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04/03/2016 02:55:37 PM · #101
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by tanguera:

Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

And for weekly challenges I agree with this. What I'm asking is why you can't use them for Hidden Gem challenges when create timestamp isn't important? Given that DNG files can only be created from a camera raw file, and since raw files cannot be edited in and of themselves (meaning you can slip in an edit and make it look like it was taken in-camera), if the source of the DNG is a raw format (NEF, CR2, etc.) then the resulting DNG file cannot have been visually modified. So the only thing modified is the only that that really doesn't matter in a Hidden Gem challenge.

Even though the date rule is relaxed, it IS still limited to one year. We need to be able to validate that the image was taken within that time frame and not an earlier year :)

That's true for Best-of-Year, but Hidden Gem challenges are open for anything you shot in the past that you can provide a valid original for...


Exactly. And all I'm asking is that a DNG created from a raw file (which is information obtainable in the EXIF) be considered "original" in these cases. I'll even trade you cropping in minimal for it!! :)
04/03/2016 03:07:41 PM · #102
Originally posted by JakeKurdsjuk:

Exactly. And all I'm asking is that a DNG created from a raw file (which is information obtainable in the EXIF) be considered "original" in these cases. I'll even trade you cropping in minimal for it!! :)

I think the least-confusing way to handle it would be to include a Special Rule flag for any challenge where there is no date restriction.

And I think no cropping is good -- as someone mentioned, just pretend you're shooting slide film ...
04/03/2016 03:14:43 PM · #103
Originally posted by jagar:

...there also should be a minimal free study like the expert one, that would be fair.

Problem with that is it requires a stockpile of "properly created" JPGs from which one might choose. The exercise of shooting-for-display in-camera is not a "best practice" for anyone who plans to process their images, so few of us actually bother. The "best" image for processing is exposed to the right on the histogram to open up the shadows and often looks very bland in JPG form. Similarly, I almost always compose a little loose so I have a bit of leeway for horizon straightening or perspective adjustment. And so forth and so on. I'm just not sure how relevant a minimal free study would be.

I suppose we COULD
04/03/2016 05:19:46 PM · #104
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by jagar:

...there also should be a minimal free study like the expert one, that would be fair.

Problem with that is it requires a stockpile of "properly created" JPGs from which one might choose. The exercise of shooting-for-display in-camera is not a "best practice" for anyone who plans to process their images, so few of us actually bother. The "best" image for processing is exposed to the right on the histogram to open up the shadows and often looks very bland in JPG form. Similarly, I almost always compose a little loose so I have a bit of leeway for horizon straightening or perspective adjustment. And so forth and so on. I'm just not sure how relevant a minimal free study would be.

I suppose we COULD


I agree it's not for everybody but neither is expert. Sounds like there is interest so it's worth exploring.
04/03/2016 06:04:09 PM · #105
All those with interest in Minimal PP rules should make those rules to suit themselves. A Minimal FS might be a good idea, too. And fair. Maybe we can have a more friendly, supportive environment, then.
04/03/2016 06:41:47 PM · #106
Originally posted by pixelpig:

All those with interest in Minimal PP rules should make those rules to suit themselves. A Minimal FS might be a good idea, too. And fair. Maybe we can have a more friendly, supportive environment, then.

So far we've seen no dispute with the rules as proposed, except as to whether or not to allow cropping. Dust cloning, on the other hand, seems to be universally approved. Most of the folks discussing the minimal rules here are the folks who want to use them anyway. So aren't we doing exactly what you've proposed? For a long time we've listened to peoples' complaints about minimal, and (other than the issue of whether we should use the ruleset at ALL) we've addressed them with this revision. And NOW it's up for discussion, and we're listening to feedback.

So YES, we're letting those with an interest in Minimal (AND Advanced, AND Expert) rules have a say in what they will be.

Message edited by author 2016-04-03 18:42:46.
04/03/2016 06:51:35 PM · #107
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Most of the folks discussing the minimal rules here are the folks who want to use them anyway.

actually, some of the people discussing minimal rules are not people who especially like minimal but people who want to get ribbons in every challenge regardless of ruleset, or at least one person...

my vote is to keep minimal minimal. No cropping. Minimal is like crossfit. If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right.
04/03/2016 06:52:46 PM · #108
Incidentally, it's worth noting here that in a related vein in SC forum we're exploring the feasibility of validating Expert HDR, panoramic, focus-stacked, and any other images requiring multiple originals WITHOUT by default requiring uploads of ALL the component parts. Uploading 10, 15, 30, or 40 images to DPC is a study in frustration, and on OUR side it means the validation pages take a long time to load and of course WE have to download and look at all those images. So we may have a workaround for that. Also, we're not thrilled with the 25-entry "danger window" for triggering a suspension after DQs. It's problematical because folks who only enter a challenge a week, for example, have to wait 6 months or so to clear the slate, and we've had instances of returning members (after years-long absences) registering a second-DQ-in-25-entries when the prior DQ was literally YEARS before. So we're looking at a 60-day window instead, on the theory that really active shooters get in 12 entries a month so it would be a wash at that end...
04/03/2016 07:05:59 PM · #109
For minimal, I equate the concept to what you could do with an enlarger. Leaving out, of course, the dodging and burning.

Allowing cropping would expand the possibilities of subjects. In the early 80's, I covered football and basketball for my university. With the exception of cropping, I can assure you, everything we did would be legal in minimal. If I were unable to crop, very few of my shots would have been worth publishing. And I don't think I was exceptionally bad.
04/03/2016 07:18:21 PM · #110
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Problem with that is it requires a stockpile of "properly created" JPGs from which one might choose

That would be the stockpile in your phone. Definitely worth a free study.

Or, how about every other month, taking turns with the Expert one?

And I'm also against changing the minimal rules.
04/03/2016 07:44:28 PM · #111
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Most of the folks discussing the minimal rules here are the folks who want to use them anyway.

actually, some of the people discussing minimal rules are not people who especially like minimal but people who want to get ribbons in every challenge regardless of ruleset, or at least one person...

my vote is to keep minimal minimal. No cropping. Minimal is like crossfit. If it doesn't hurt, you're not doing it right.


Oh! Oh! I do hope you're talking about me!! :D

That's my vote, too. I hate Minimal, but when I have to do it, I want it to hurt. Ha!
04/03/2016 08:00:34 PM · #112
Oh! And... regarding anonymity... I agree. Selfies are fine!

No one actually KNOWS for certain that I didn't photograph Gyaban... that he did it himself.

Oh wait! There IS still that whole... talent thing. *rolleyes*

*grin*

But, really... I don't mind if Samantha can still win ribbons even if folks know it's her. She's a brilliant photographer and editor.

I'm sure folks vote her down sometimes because they're jealous... or tired of seeing her win. AND... she still wins!

Why do we care if the face is recognizable?

I almost never shoot myself... but that's because they score low. :D

My kids? Well... they're the only folks who will model for me, most of the time.

04/03/2016 08:53:45 PM · #113
I used to shoot slide film too. It doesn't mean I aspire to simulating its limitations.
04/04/2016 04:54:25 AM · #114
It may well have been pointed out, but for clarity's sake, change the wording:

"Penalties
• An entry will be disqualified when a majority of the Site Council finds that any of the rules above in the submission rulesets were not followed. "

Message edited by author 2016-04-04 04:55:13.
04/04/2016 05:22:22 AM · #115
Originally posted by jomari:

I used to shoot slide film too. It doesn't mean I aspire to simulating its limitations.


Exactly, every now and then you hit that nail real hard for me, thanks chuck.
04/04/2016 05:27:09 AM · #116
And thanks for doing a poll on this.
04/04/2016 06:40:20 AM · #117
Originally posted by Tiny:

And thanks for doing a poll on this.


I'll second that.

Clearly cropping is the biggest issue most people want to voice their opinion on. Well done for picking that up and acting on it.

Now come on, people......... wake up to the fact that it isn't minimal if you can crop to your heart's content.

Everyone, say a big NO to cropping.

:-)

Edited for spelling..... one little plural "s" that didn't belong there. Sowwy.

Message edited by author 2016-04-04 06:55:28.
04/04/2016 10:05:34 AM · #118
I did not get a notification in my email about the poll. Could this go out to everyone even if they don't log in during the current week? Thanks.
04/04/2016 10:27:34 AM · #119
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

I did not get a notification in my email about the poll. Could this go out to everyone even if they don't log in during the current week? Thanks.

We already have well over 100 responses to the poll in less than 12 hours, so it IS getting a lot of attention... I'll ask about the notification...
04/04/2016 10:31:51 AM · #120
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

I did not get a notification in my email about the poll. Could this go out to everyone even if they don't log in during the current week? Thanks.

We already have well over 100 responses to the poll in less than 12 hours, so it IS getting a lot of attention... I'll ask about the notification...


Thanks.
04/04/2016 10:54:24 AM · #121
Seems the discussion over minimal editing outweighs the discussion over the other two formats when minimal editing challenges are...well...minimal. You hardly see them at all nowadays.

But, minimal is minimal and cropping is a major edit and ought no to be allowed.

So there.
04/04/2016 10:57:43 AM · #122
Originally posted by Mond:

Seems the discussion over minimal editing outweighs the discussion over the other two formats when minimal editing challenges are...well...minimal. You hardly see them at all nowadays.

1. I take that to mean the other rulesets have met with popular approval.

2. I'd expect we'll be seeing more Minimal Editing challenges in the future.
04/04/2016 11:16:15 AM · #123
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

2. I'd expect we'll be seeing more Minimal Editing challenges in the future.


Excellent news.
04/04/2016 11:45:56 AM · #124
Every challenge has it's challenges and limitations. And sure, equipment plays into one's end results... always, not just in minimal edit.
I have no idea who Don was referring to. I have no interest in a discussion of who want to win ribbons and who doesn't.
But if minimal requires no cropping and you don't have a long lens, can't you shoot something besides wildlife?

Another ie: we have a wide challenge running. I imagine there are shooters who wish they had a wider lens... but they will (hopefully) figure out how to get something they like to enter.

And of course I will go with the flow ... if the concensus determines that we crop in minimal and call it basic... or whatever, that's fine.
But I do think it creates a challenge when we can't crop or straighten and I enjoy it so I'm voting to keep the rules the way they are.
All it means is that maybe 5% of the challenges you can't crop and 95% of them you can.
04/04/2016 12:17:40 PM · #125
Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Every challenge has it's challenges and limitations. And sure, equipment plays into one's end results... always, not just in minimal edit.
I have no idea who Don was referring to. I have no interest in a discussion of who want to win ribbons and who doesn't.
But if minimal requires no cropping and you don't have a long lens, can't you shoot something besides wildlife?

Another ie: we have a wide challenge running. I imagine there are shooters who wish they had a wider lens... but they will (hopefully) figure out how to get something they like to enter.

And of course I will go with the flow ... if the concensus determines that we crop in minimal and call it basic... or whatever, that's fine.
But I do think it creates a challenge when we can't crop or straighten and I enjoy it so I'm voting to keep the rules the way they are.
All it means is that maybe 5% of the challenges you can't crop and 95% of them you can.


Absolutely! And I do shoot something else. I'm more interested in playing with lighting right now, so I'd do setup shots anyway.

I just remember how I felt when I first started here. I was in the: things here are way too processed. Shots shouldn't be set up. Things should be what you find, not what you create. More documentary. So it seemed like there was a big hole in the minimal challenges for people who did documentary vs setup shots. I'm not doing as many wildlife shots, but I still think that cropping isn't a function fixing errors, but fixing limitations.

You do make a good point about wide angle. But that's one challenge vs one category of challenges. And while it really doesn't make a difference considering the amount of minimal challenges that are offered; I would enjoy more minimal challenges with cropping allowed. Even ones with cropping, but no straightening. Or cropping only to 4x6 aspect ratio and no straightening.

Minimal challenges are really good exercises. I would like to see more. But the cropping is always something I wish would change.

And I also go with the vote. And if the vote goes against cropping, I'll complain less about it, since it came about from a good, valid discussion. (even if people are wrong. :)

Message edited by author 2016-04-04 12:21:20.
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