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03/08/2016 02:51:43 PM · #26 |
| My DPC renewal is March 30, 2016. For the first time in ten years, I an considering letting my membership lapse. The deciding factor has been learning about the race to the bottom in voting by several contributors to this thread. It is a serious deterioration in the environment. It will kill the site. |
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03/08/2016 02:54:57 PM · #27 |
Actually I do understand how it works, you aparantly don't understand why membership is dwindling away slowly but surely because of not being open to change. The rules and time constraints my be fine for you but not for others. You aren't going to be around for ever neither is the site is you remain out of step with the changing times with your head in the sand.
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03/08/2016 02:56:08 PM · #28 |
Paul, we had this exact conversation a few years ago and neither of us have changed.
I do not think I would have raised my rant if I knew that you were out of the bush.
I totally get why you vote the way you do and I do understand your viewpoint but as I said
on the last go round I don’t consider 1thru 3 discerning nor constructive but rather dismissive
and superior. If the voting were not anonymous I would be with you.
If they were my rules you would have earned a pass but not a new arrival without the skill to
discern or instruct. We all know that we are hanging on by a thread but I would miss this game
that we have been playing for a long time and especially the people that I love to play it with.
I think of you Paul every time I enter a banal, vapid, unimaginative photo….meaning you are often on my mind.
Glad that you are still around to protect the 4.4’s!
Jane |
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03/08/2016 03:05:24 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Paul, we had this exact conversation a few years ago and neither of us have changed.
I do not think I would have raised my rant if I knew that you were out of the bush.
I totally get why you vote the way you do and I do understand your viewpoint but as I said
on the last go round I don’t consider 1thru 3 discerning nor constructive but rather dismissive
and superior. If the voting were not anonymous I would be with you.
If they were my rules you would have earned a pass but not a new arrival without the skill to
discern or instruct. We all know that we are hanging on by a thread but I would miss this game
that we have been playing for a long time and especially the people that I love to play it with.
I think of you Paul every time I enter a banal, vapid, unimaginative photo….meaning you are often on my mind.
Glad that you are still around to protect the 4.4’s!
Jane |
+1 :D |
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03/08/2016 03:08:11 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free?
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03/08/2016 03:11:55 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Paul, we had this exact conversation a few years ago and neither of us have changed.
I do not think I would have raised my rant if I knew that you were out of the bush.
I totally get why you vote the way you do and I do understand your viewpoint but as I said
on the last go round I don’t consider 1thru 3 discerning nor constructive but rather dismissive
and superior. If the voting were not anonymous I would be with you.
If they were my rules you would have earned a pass but not a new arrival without the skill to
discern or instruct. We all know that we are hanging on by a thread but I would miss this game
that we have been playing for a long time and especially the people that I love to play it with.
I think of you Paul every time I enter a banal, vapid, unimaginative photo….meaning you are often on my mind.
Glad that you are still around to protect the 4.4’s!
Jane |
+1 :D |
Indeed - it's useful to have that benchmark in ones head.
And for the record, I voted 1-3 on 11 images in this last Free Study. I don't think my motivation was about being dismissive or superior; just a reflection of using the available scale. |
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03/08/2016 03:31:27 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Paul:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Paul, we had this exact conversation a few years ago and neither of us have changed.
I do not think I would have raised my rant if I knew that you were out of the bush.
I totally get why you vote the way you do and I do understand your viewpoint but as I said
on the last go round I don’t consider 1thru 3 discerning nor constructive but rather dismissive
and superior. If the voting were not anonymous I would be with you.
If they were my rules you would have earned a pass but not a new arrival without the skill to
discern or instruct. We all know that we are hanging on by a thread but I would miss this game
that we have been playing for a long time and especially the people that I love to play it with.
I think of you Paul every time I enter a banal, vapid, unimaginative photo….meaning you are often on my mind.
Glad that you are still around to protect the 4.4’s!
Jane |
+1 :D |
Indeed - it's useful to have that benchmark in ones head.
And for the record, I voted 1-3 on 11 images in this last Free Study. I don't think my motivation was about being dismissive or superior; just a reflection of using the available scale. |
I do think there's something to notice that it seems like the majority of newbies have very low voting averages. Definitely not all. But when you look, it is rather alarming.
But then again, this is the age of competition -- get your friends to vote, vote things down, etc. National Geographic changed how things are selected from Your Best Shot. I'm glad. Because once when I was near the top of the voting, the top vote getter was an absolutely incredible photograph. In the last day of the voting, an incredibly dull beach shot received a huge, huge number of votes to knock the incredible shot out of contention. (I was down in in around 6th place, so it didn't affect me).
There's not really a way to fix things. There are people who have well thought out reasons why they give something a low vote. There are others who do it to better their own score. Unfortunately, we really won't know the difference.
I've received a 1 and a 2 so far on the the Leap challenge. I think it fits the definition of the challenge quite well. I'm sure at least one of those votes doesn't. Right now it's making a .5 difference in my score. So it is rather frustrating when you try to meet the challenge, yet do something not as obvious. The lower number of votes makes those 1s and 2s hurt a lot in the end. But I have a choice: be obvious or try to be a bit more creative. I know the pit falls when I enter. It doesn't stop the frustration. But it's my choice. The only thing I've learned from the 7 years of voting is that I should give HIGHER scores instead of lower ones. If I feel someone is being different and creative, I think I'll start bumping it up more to counteract the nay-sayers. I only give 9s and 10s to truly incredible photographs. Maybe it should be the ones I like best in a challenge. I think I'll start rethinking things a bit.
But do we need to change the site because of the way things work in other sites or the changes in society? No. I think this site does the best job in trying to make it about photographers working with photographers. Not friends and family and pets skewing the system. Or the "everything is wonderful!" sites. This has been debated many times. The only change I'd make is that people should honestly vote on 5 or more challenges before they enter their first challenge. Get used to scoring without having a horse in the race. |
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03/08/2016 03:49:17 PM · #33 |
This may be difficult for those who need to use the entire voting scale but 1, 2 and 3 may be hurtful while 4 makes the same point and does not
damage morale which is an interesting concept to think about when giving anonymous instruction.
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03/08/2016 03:57:11 PM · #34 |
But I like the 4s better than the 3s and the 5s better than the 4s and so forth. In part, I'm making a relative judgement - I want to differentiate between entries. 4 doesn't make the same point when I like the photo less than other 4s...
If we aren't going to use 1-3, why have them? |
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03/08/2016 03:57:13 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free? |
Actually if the contests are well defined it doesn't take a Ph.D. To determine if an entry clearly is off theme. If you want I will do it for free.
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03/08/2016 03:59:33 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by gipper11:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free? |
Actually if the contests are well defined it doesn't take a Ph.D. To determine if an entry clearly is off theme. If you want I will do it for free. |
Goodness. That would be quite dreadful. |
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03/08/2016 04:31:12 PM · #37 |
| In general, we don't WANT "well defined challenges". There was a period back there when we *tried* to do that, write very precise challenge descriptions pointing folks in specific directions, and the howls of outrage were remarkable. It's MUCH more interesting to leave it up to the individuals, both photographers and voters, as to how they choose to interpret the challenge topic. And that's perfectly sustainable as long as folks can avoid stressing about their scores. It shouldn't be that big a deal :-( |
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03/08/2016 05:13:47 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Paul:
But I like the 4s better than the 3s and the 5s better than the 4s and so forth. In part, I'm making a relative judgement - I want to differentiate between entries. 4 doesn't make the same point when I like the photo less than other 4s...
If we aren't going to use 1-3, why have them? |
I agree totally, there are entries that deserve 8-10 , 5-7, 4 and some deserve lower. I looked at my average and it is 4.4 not by design but just the way it seems to have turned out.
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03/08/2016 05:20:27 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by gipper11:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free? |
Actually if the contests are well defined it doesn't take a Ph.D. To determine if an entry clearly is off theme. If you want I will do it for free. |
So if the theme is "Apple" you'd rather look a 68 photos of a Red Delicious sitting on a teacher's desk and zero pictures of a certain type of computer, a recording studio, or (God-of-choice forbid!) the "apple of [someone's] eye" ... I'd think the point of an "educational" photography site would be to encourage photographers to become more creative, not to produce a pool of similar stock photos ...
Message edited by author 2016-03-08 17:23:55. |
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03/08/2016 05:51:31 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free? |
Actually if the contests are well defined it doesn't take a Ph.D. To determine if an entry clearly is off theme. If you want I will do it for free. |
So if the theme is "Apple" you'd rather look a 68 photos of a Red Delicious sitting on a teacher's desk and zero pictures of a certain type of computer, a recording studio, or (God-of-choice forbid!) the "apple of [someone's] eye" ... I'd think the point of an "educational" photography site would be to encourage photographers to become more creative, not to produce a pool of similar stock photos ... |
First you know that's not what I mean if you are an intelligent person which I assume you are.
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03/08/2016 05:59:32 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Paul:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Originally posted by kirbic:
Originally posted by gipper11:
Actually I do understand how it works... |
No... no really you don't. I ask you how, in any reasonable world, you could expect a small group like the Site Council to unilaterally decide who's photos meet the challenge, in every challenge, every week? For free? |
Actually if the contests are well defined it doesn't take a Ph.D. To determine if an entry clearly is off theme. If you want I will do it for free. |
Goodness. That would be quite dreadful. |
+1 |
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03/08/2016 06:00:00 PM · #42 |
Gipper 11 wrote
I agree totally, there are entries that deserve 8-10 , 5-7, 4 and some deserve lower. I looked at my average and it is 4.4 not by design but just the way it seems to have turned out.
4.4 is a very low voting average. It is not something to be proud of. |
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03/08/2016 07:11:32 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by MeMex2:
Gipper 11 wrote
I agree totally, there are entries that deserve 8-10 , 5-7, 4 and some deserve lower. I looked at my average and it is 4.4 not by design but just the way it seems to have turned out.
4.4 is a very low voting average. It is not something to be proud of. |
Actually I don't think it's that low, I think it's more like the average. As I said above there are excellent photographs, there are good photographs, there are below average photographs and there are poor photographs. I vote the way I see the photograph and I'm not going to pump it up just to make the person feel good. When you vote just to make someone feel good you are not doing the person who has the superior photograph any favors and you're not assisting the person who needs help. Anyway each person has their vote and they can use it the way they want. When I give a very low vote I try to leave a comment with it.
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03/08/2016 07:18:07 PM · #44 |
huh, I've never seen a thread about this topic before.
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03/08/2016 09:02:26 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Mike:
huh, I've never seen a thread about this topic before. |
LOL!
There can never be any consensus on scoring because each of us uses our own formula to arrive at our scoring system. The system requires us to consider technical acumen (light, composition, color, pov, etc.), subject matter, originality, theme-relation, etc., etc., and temper all of that with personal taste. And then each of these things are weighted differently by each person. Some value originality above all else. Others cannot abide an image with any technical flaws. Others will not value anything that does not strictly adhere to the challenge theme.
And finally, we have to assign the image a number that we feel best reflects our computations. And even this is a personal choice, with some only using the bottom three numbers, others the top three numbers, still others the middle 5 numbers, and a few using all the numbers.
To get hung up on these numbers is pointless. |
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03/08/2016 09:12:00 PM · #46 |
and in the end
the art you make
is equal to the art
you make |
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03/08/2016 09:28:47 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by skewsme:
and in the end
the art you make
is equal to the art
you make |
Now that song is stuck in my head! |
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03/09/2016 12:08:02 AM · #48 |
I don't vote any more and haven't for some time. The reason? Very little worth voting on. And since you have to vote a certain percentage for your vote to count, there usually hasn't been enough "worthy" to justify the time of voting on the rest. And if I was going to take the time to vote on a few, I did feel enough commitment to vote on all of them and not just the required percentage.
In the early days there were a lot more "worthy" images posted on DPC. And not just in the challenges either. There were a lot of threads of things people did, including tutorials on how they did them. But there were plenty of images in the contests to get me to vote and comment (although not knowing if the comment was going to be like stepping on a dog turd or really appreciated got tiring).
I use to at least look at most contests to see if it was worth voting but I don't even do that any more. I just wait until the front page shows who won and those that were close. Sometimes I think I'd have voted well on them and sometimes I don't think I would.
It is a bit ironic though... back years ago when I voted, it was sometimes a real chore to get through sometimes several hundred entries and get them all voted. Now there are relatively few entries, which would make voting much faster and I have no desire to.
Threads like this have been around as long as I have... we just don't have Art posting the popcorn picture anymore.
DPC... it is what it is, it just isn't what it was.
Mike
Message edited by author 2016-03-09 00:08:20. |
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03/09/2016 02:39:35 AM · #49 |
Yesterday I was contacted by a local restaurant owner and his architect, they are remodelling and were interested in hanging my photos on the walls, they want big format and in aluminium. I started by showing them my portfolio, because I show and sell in the area they already knew of my work and they immediately asked for the more traditional stuff, the kind of crap I would shoot 5 years ago. This got me thinking about DPC, it's the same situation, to do well I have to show the photos that I no longer have any feeling for whatsoever. Maybe a while ago I would have just been happy that folks walk into a restaurant and say "wow that's john's work" even if it is what I consider my worst work, now though I'd rather not be hung there at all. The difference with DPC compared to the restaurant is that this place has a little obscure room for people like me, it's right at the back and hardly anyone goes but at least it's there.
Lately I haven't voted much and I haven't entered much, and as the quality of what's shown here gets worse so will my participation. Its like DPC was a magazine that I used to read and enjoy from cover to cover but now I have to flick threw to the very back to find anything worth a read at all.
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03/09/2016 05:56:25 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Yesterday I was contacted by a local restaurant owner and his architect, they are remodelling and were interested in hanging my photos on the walls, they want big format and in aluminium. I started by showing them my portfolio, because I show and sell in the area they already knew of my work and they immediately asked for the more traditional stuff, the kind of crap I would shoot 5 years ago. This got me thinking about DPC, it's the same situation, to do well I have to show the photos that I no longer have any feeling for whatsoever. Maybe a while ago I would have just been happy that folks walk into a restaurant and say "wow that's john's work" even if it is what I consider my worst work, now though I'd rather not be hung there at all. The difference with DPC compared to the restaurant is that this place has a little obscure room for people like me, it's right at the back and hardly anyone goes but at least it's there.
Lately I haven't voted much and I haven't entered much, and as the quality of what's shown here gets worse so will my participation. Its like DPC was a magazine that I used to read and enjoy from cover to cover but now I have to flick threw to the very back to find anything worth a read at all. |
I'm not sure that's fair at all. Perhaps to do well on everything, like you used to. But I see a number of top ten and ribbon entries in the last 20-30 which definitely weren't your typical. You're just not winning all the time anymore. As for the quality getting worse -- it ebbs and flows. But I think there's more diversity in the field than there used to be. It's just a smaller field.
The magazine analogy is fair, though. If we no longer suit your needs, it's sad, but understandable. Tastes change quite a bit over the years. Perhaps that's my problem. I still like the old stuff I've shot as much as the new. Whether better or worse, there were reasons, and I appreciate the thoughts and the reasons and the (yes, it's corny) love that went into the shots. I can't really see them critically, because I remember all the feelings about them.
Am I happy with them? No. I've never been contented with my work. It's not the incredibly wonderful, artistic crap that I'd like to do and haven't figured out yet.
So I stick around, thinking perhaps I'll find it yet. |
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