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03/08/2016 04:36:33 AM · #1
I watch amazed this past weekend as my Window Light and Abstract In Color shots sat there with more votes than my February Free Study. 109 entries received an average of just under 58 votes. Commenting was almost non-existent. This is depressing.
03/08/2016 06:21:10 AM · #2
I totally agree with you, Jake. But to be honest, this was one of my first Free Studies that I didn't vote either. And the reason is exactly what you say: I'm a bit depressed lately by numbers of participation, voting and commenting. I know by not submitting and voting I makes things worse, but it's difficult to give it a boost again.
As a matter of fact, I registered with another photo site recently, GuruShots. Maybe not as defiant as the DPC challenges, but at least there's much more participation and activity.
03/08/2016 06:51:17 AM · #3
There is an inverse relationship between the number of entries and the number of votes. Could this be a result of the increase in the number of challenges at any one time? When DPC began there were 2 challenges per week, a challenge open to all and a member challenge. An occasional speed challenge was thrown in. Then came the free study challenges and the expert challenges etc. I'm not saying that this is a bad idea, in fact it makes DPC more fun in the sense that it gives us more choices and room for more creative thought, but the individual's time is limited and given the choice of taking pictures for challenges or voting and commenting on others pictures, most members would rather spend their time taking pictures. There is a Hierarchy of Photograhic Needs. Entering pictures is a primary need whereas voting and commenting becomes increasingly less important and yet receiving votes and comments is the treat for performing the task. So in order to increase the number of votes and comments in a challenge it is human nature to make it a "need". Therefore, would it be possible for DPC to disqualify any submission where the member did not vote (and comment) on the other pictures in the challenge? Could this be done in the software when it is computing results for each challenge? Just an idea open for discussion.

Message edited by author 2016-03-08 06:51:53.
03/08/2016 07:04:12 AM · #4
Just a second thought. I see that in our personal statistics it keeps track of "votes given" and "votes received". I also see that there are many (not to mention names) who have received many more votes then they have given. Could there be a requirement that one must have as many given votes as received votes to enter a challenge?
03/08/2016 07:23:45 AM · #5
I agree it is depressing as hell. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want votes from anyone forced to vote in order to enter.

Edit for typo

Message edited by author 2016-03-08 07:24:04.
03/08/2016 08:20:07 AM · #6
We've talked about the non-voters and a voting requirement before, and I understand the arguments against it. Forced votes are (potentially) compromised votes. But when you only post for praise and glory (such as it is), and don't participate otherwise, it just plain sucks for us to have to be around you whatever your excuse - especially when numbers are down like they are. This isn't Flickr, 500px or Instagram - you can go their for your empty praise.

OK, off my soapbox.

I do understand the inverse nature of participants to votes, but this FS easily lagged behind the normal percentage by 20-25%. And if it were true then Chinese New Year with 29 entries wouldn't have averaged fewer votes than the Expert FS ending the same day. And the number of overtly negative scores are up as well. I've always found this place more frustrating than fun (at least when the DPL isn't going), but I can't even get frustrated any more.
03/08/2016 08:39:48 AM · #7
This was the first time in very many challenges that I forgot to vote. I mistakenly thought I had another day. Sorry.
03/08/2016 08:43:30 AM · #8
While I didn't enter, I voted 100%. Maybe the reason for the lack of interest is nothing more complicated than a lack of interest. Apathy. That kind of spark has to come from within, it can't be kindled by a website, or a new camera.
03/08/2016 09:06:56 AM · #9
Maybe we have too many challenges? Another thing that is not helping our fragile eco system is people who vote an average of 4.4.
I know it's an old rant but it feels like sabotage...vote as low as possible to keep everything depressed.
03/08/2016 09:16:54 AM · #10
Originally posted by MeMex2:

Maybe we have too many challenges? Another thing that is not helping our fragile eco system is people who vote an average of 4.4.
I know it's an old rant but it feels like sabotage...vote as low as possible to keep everything depressed.


I personally have no problem whatsoever with people who vote low as it is a representation of their personal likes and dislikes.

As long as they are consistent, I am all of it. I personally know some people in this venue that do vote low and truth be told, I was absolutely thrilled when one of these individuals gave one of my images a 6... that to me was really something.

Have I ever doled out low scores... I most definitely did since I meted out the score that I personally believed the image was worth... nothing personal, just (from my perspective) a reality check.

Ray
03/08/2016 09:19:56 AM · #11
My thoughts:

1. Well defined contest rules/themes that are enforced by the SC before and during voting i.e. disqualifying entries that don't meet the contest intentions. Ideally before contest begins so a replacement photo can be submitted. Don't leave the enforcement of the theme up to the voters. Just because the photo is good doesn't warrant a high score if it is off theme.

2. Loosen the shoe-boxing rules, there are only so many places to photograph around a particular area for those who are not professional photographers or those who travel a lot.I for one have a job and family obligations as I assume many here do.

3. I have noticed many photos are removed during voting, I would venture a guess that they are being eliminated/removed because they don't meet the correct time-frame I could be wrong.

4. I know the old people are against shoe-boxing but maybe that is why they are old members and new members don't stick around long enough to be old members.

5. I can probably think of more but I have to get to work.
03/08/2016 09:25:17 AM · #12
I have consistently voted since I joined. I have also entered almost every challenge. (I do not comment often however. I try to make sure I vote on everything at the very least.) I don't have anything entered right now which has only happened once or twice since I joined. I haven't voted on any of these challenges, which has never happened.

I have become a little overwhelmed and disappointed. Overwhelmed by all the challenges at once...trying to shoot for them all, edit and enter on top of normal daily life. I know I can pick and choose which ones I enter just seems like so many going all the time and during the week is obviously harder for some to shoot for.

I am disappointed by the amount of voters or lack of voters and the low numbers that are being given. I feel like it has dropped since I began. Everyone has their reason for not voting but this is a voting site. So I don't understand not voting. The whole site is based on the votes, whether your in the challenge or not, why shouldn't you vote? I want your vote, I want to give you my vote. I can be unbiased to vote on your photo even though I have one in, because I think your photo is good or bad based on your photo, not on mine! I think more emphasis needs to be put on voting!
03/08/2016 09:33:24 AM · #13
Originally posted by gipper11:

...Just because the photo is good doesn't warrant a high score if it is off theme....


Narrow thinking is a big part of the problem.

One can make a good faith effort to meet a challenge and then get hammered by low scores because some don't tolerate anything deviating from their narrow interpretation. It has become easier to stop submitting to challenges. My votes and comments are not wanted, either.
03/08/2016 09:46:19 AM · #14
Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by gipper11:

...Just because the photo is good doesn't warrant a high score if it is off theme....


Narrow thinking is a big part of the problem.

One can make a good faith effort to meet a challenge and then get hammered by low scores because some don't tolerate anything deviating from their narrow interpretation. It has become easier to stop submitting to challenges. My votes and comments are not wanted, either.


I thought I would here from you, Well defined contest rules would eliminate and enforcement of them would eliminate this problem for the most part. A good faith effort to meet a challenge rules does not mean you actually met it, and if you didn't you photo should be removed before you get any low scores.
03/08/2016 10:02:19 AM · #15
Originally posted by gipper11:

...Well defined contest rules would eliminate and enforcement of them would eliminate this problem for the most part. A good faith effort to meet a challenge rules does not mean you actually met it, and if you didn't you photo should be removed before you get any low scores.


Lemme think... ummm. no. Some facts:
- Whether someone's entry meets the challenge is not grounds for disqualification (unless extra rules to that effect)
- Whether a voter feels a photo meets the challenge is subjective; one voter may feel it does, another may feel it does not.
- Whether a photo meets a challenge is not a true/false variable. There are varying degrees of meeting the challenge
03/08/2016 10:07:16 AM · #16
Avg Vote Cast: 4.4160

Narrow thinking and low votes cast by a few really is unfair.

Message edited by author 2016-03-08 10:08:23.
03/08/2016 10:10:27 AM · #17
Originally posted by gipper11:

My thoughts:

1. Well defined contest rules/themes that are enforced by the SC before and during voting i.e. disqualifying entries that don't meet the contest intentions. Ideally before contest begins so a replacement photo can be submitted. Don't leave the enforcement of the theme up to the voters. Just because the photo is good doesn't warrant a high score if it is off theme.

2. Loosen the shoe-boxing rules, there are only so many places to photograph around a particular area for those who are not professional photographers or those who travel a lot.I for one have a job and family obligations as I assume many here do.

3. I have noticed many photos are removed during voting, I would venture a guess that they are being eliminated/removed because they don't meet the correct time-frame I could be wrong.

4. I know the old people are against shoe-boxing but maybe that is why they are old members and new members don't stick around long enough to be old members.

5. I can probably think of more but I have to get to work.


You truly don't understand the way this place works, do you?

The SC "disqualifying entries that don't meet the contest intentions", are you serious?!?! That's not even close to the realm of reality.

"Many photos are removed during voting"?!?! To where?! DQ's are always listed at the bottom of the results. Count 'em up. If "many" can be counted on one hand across many challenges then maybe.

Moaning about opening up challenges to back catalog again? You've obviously not paid attention to the fact that for over a decade this has been a place where your shoot for a challenge. That's one of the last bits of allure of this place.

There are plenty of places where you can display your nuggets if you want. Perhaps you'd be happier there? I've always been told it's not the best manners to wander into someone else's home and insist on repeatedly tell them how crappy it is?
03/08/2016 11:23:22 AM · #18
Originally posted by gipper11:


3. I have noticed many photos are removed during voting, I would venture a guess that they are being eliminated/removed because they don't meet the correct time-frame I could be wrong.


As explained time after time after time ... there are no photos removed, these 'image removed' images are only place holders when two images finish tied with the same score. When number 7 and number 8 have the same score they both finish 7th, the 'image removed' image is there to take the 8th place, so number 9 is on the 9th place again.

And I agree with ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' JakeKurdsjuk, you can't come with the same arguments again and again because you don't agree with the rules. DPC has its own way of doing things and the shoot for the challenge rule is one of them. Just accept it or find a place where the rules are more to your taste.
03/08/2016 11:32:38 AM · #19
+1
03/08/2016 12:42:40 PM · #20
also, while you are at it, take a look at the way you vote and why.
03/08/2016 12:43:44 PM · #21
There's no need to tell folks to "love it or leave it", people. I'm sure everyone's aware of that option :-) And there's no need to berate folks who seem to be determined to debate "the system"; that's been a part of the DPC experience from the beginning, after all...
03/08/2016 01:27:42 PM · #22
Originally posted by MeMex2:

Maybe we have too many challenges? Another thing that is not helping our fragile eco system is people who vote an average of 4.4.
I know it's an old rant but it feels like sabotage...vote as low as possible to keep everything depressed.


This is nonsense, Jane ... and I mean that with no disrespect, but just as a fellow beating a different drum. Here's why:

I have a voting average of 4.4-something, and I can guarantee that I never voted "as low as possible to keep everything depressed". I'm not a photography enthusiast, so my interest here was always to find and promote the rare photographs that were interesting to me. I gave at least one 10 (sometimes several) in every challenge I voted on, and did not give less than a 3. I'm unlikely to ever vote here again, because the diehards here today are nearly all photography enthusiasts first, and we have nothing in common. That's not a criticism, just a fact.

I am not the only one who has an unconventional view on the relative 'worth' of photographs, but most people who are (still) here are less interested in photographs than they are in photography. Which is why the same well-trod paths are the most celebrated here.

DPC began in the infancy of digital photography, when everything was new and exciting. But it's still mired there today, for the most part. And most contemporary photographers aren't. Certainly most photographs aren't. The tricks and sleights-of-hand that so symbolised the early days of mass digital photography impress hardly anyone any more (though I willingly admit to having been impressed by them myself). Only committed photography enthusiasts care now about the water drops, feathers, insect macros, sunsets, northern lights, and so forth. People who care first for photography as art and as craft have gotten over that stuff. And that's why there's less participants here in 2016.

As a 4.4-average-vote bloke, I can say that I used the voting range (well, from 3 to 10) fairly and without bias to reflect my personal preferences. Which means I often depressingly often gave a 3 score to a blue ribbon photograph. And a 10 score to another picture that appeared on the last page of the challenge results. It isn't elitist; it's just one person's point-of-view. A beautiful, slick, perfectly-rendered picture that I'd seen many times before was an automatic 4 or less to me. Because I don't care a whit how 'good' the photography is, if the photograph is cheesy, tacky, banal or derivative. I may obliquely respect the craft involved, but I deplore the lack of originality; the absence of any creative curiosity.

Some of my fellow contrarians persist here; gloriously so. But I'm too old now for that kind of cheerful resilience. My point is really this ... if you blame uninspired scores and tepid reactions on low-average voters, you are barking up the wrong tree. If you blame tactical and unfair voting on low-average voters, you are barking up the wrong tree again. I personally believe that low-average voters are the most discerning, and ultimately most constructive, voters of all. But then again, I would say that, wouldn't I?

Message edited by author 2016-03-08 13:47:11.
03/08/2016 01:57:02 PM · #23
Originally posted by GolferDDS:

There is an inverse relationship between the number of entries and the number of votes. Could this be a result of the increase in the number of challenges at any one time? When DPC began there were 2 challenges per week, a challenge open to all and a member challenge. An occasional speed challenge was thrown in. Then came the free study challenges and the expert challenges etc.

Actually, you didn't go back far enough ... we started with one challenge/week, open to everyone because there were no "paid members" at that time, and the only rule set was similar to the Basic rules now, but somewhat more restrictive.
03/08/2016 01:57:51 PM · #24
Originally posted by ubique:

I personally believe that low-average voters are the most discerning, and ultimately most constructive, voters of all. But then again, I would say that, wouldn't I?


Yes you would, but I for one would not believe it if you said otherwise.

As I mentioned earlier, there are some on this site whose scores may be lower than the norm, but that in itself does not diminish their value... at least not in my opinion.

Ray
03/08/2016 02:03:27 PM · #25
To get back to the original point which is not enough voters, although the general trend has been towards lower scores it is across the board. So we are all in the same boat and therefore the scores are relative. The joy for me is the numbers of people looking at the picture and giving me feedback visa-a-vis a score to let me know if they like the picture. This in and of itself is part of the the learning experience and should be part of the overall submission guidelines when entering a challenge.
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