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08/20/2015 08:14:38 PM · #26
Originally posted by hahn23:

If 4wd is not an option, I will concede that front wheel drive with aggressive snow tires and chains for the I-70 corridor would be minimum winter gear. I am originally from flatland Iowa. Colorado has the worst, most wreckless drivers I've ever seen. They drive too fast for conditions all the time. There is no such thing as Driver's Education courses in our CO schools. Parents are responsible for teaching their children how to drive, which explains the source of the problem.

Eta: I use 4WD a lot between October and May, but I live at 8800' and frequently drive to 12000'. The risk factors of driving in the megalopolis of the front range are completely different from mountain travel challenges.


same here...we teach our children to drive...therefore the worry (cringe)
08/20/2015 08:16:41 PM · #27
Originally posted by Ja-9:

... I'm a planner running by the seat of my pants isn't a pleasant experience for me ...

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08/20/2015 08:32:19 PM · #28
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Ja-9:

... I'm a planner running by the seat of my pants isn't a pleasant experience for me ...

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yes, but I can argue that it can be well planned...lol
08/20/2015 09:13:18 PM · #29
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by hahn23:

Colorado has the worst, most wreckless drivers I've ever seen.

I think you mean the most "reckless" drivers -- "wreckless" driving is usually a good thing ...

Good catch! My spell checker let me down. Lol!
08/20/2015 11:24:30 PM · #30
Originally posted by hahn23:

Colorado has the worst, most wreckless drivers I've ever seen.


We imported them!

Message edited by author 2015-08-20 23:25:23.
08/21/2015 01:36:27 AM · #31
I grew up in Denver, and learned to drive there. I didn't grow up with anyone who had 4WD or snow tires for city driving. People who skied a lot might have 4WD, but even then, most people went skiing in normal cars. Within the city, if it's bad enough to need more than a front wheel drive car and normal tires, everything is going to be shut down anyway. Swapping out a perfectly good front wheel drive car in anticipation of what winter driving is going to be like in a few months isn't necessary, and is just an added expense. Denver itself is actually pretty flat, and the roads are dry more often than not. If she doesn't have one, she'll need an ice scraper though. And gloves. Scraping ice without gloves is very cold.

TL;DR when I was 16, I took my driving test in a rear wheel drive Chevy Nova the day after a snowstorn. It went fine. If I could do that, your daughter will be fine with the car she already has.

08/21/2015 07:11:03 AM · #32
Originally posted by Ann:

I grew up in Denver, and learned to drive there. I didn't grow up with anyone who had 4WD or snow tires for city driving. People who skied a lot might have 4WD, but even then, most people went skiing in normal cars. Within the city, if it's bad enough to need more than a front wheel drive car and normal tires, everything is going to be shut down anyway. Swapping out a perfectly good front wheel drive car in anticipation of what winter driving is going to be like in a few months isn't necessary, and is just an added expense. Denver itself is actually pretty flat, and the roads are dry more often than not. If she doesn't have one, she'll need an ice scraper though. And gloves. Scraping ice without gloves is very cold.

TL;DR when I was 16, I took my driving test in a rear wheel drive Chevy Nova the day after a snowstorn. It went fine. If I could do that, your daughter will be fine with the car she already has.


Totally agree, people who move here tend to buy 4WD's and get into more trouble driving them because they go great on ice and snow but they do not stop any better than a normal car. Good all season tires on a front wheel drive car will get you around town just fine.
08/21/2015 08:20:36 AM · #33
Originally posted by PapaBob:


Totally agree, people who move here tend to buy 4WD's and get into more trouble driving them because they go great on ice and snow but they do not stop any better than a normal car. Good all season tires on a front wheel drive car will get you around town just fine.

The 2WD vehicles are the major cause of crashes and traffic jams in the I-70 corridor during snow and ice events. Also true in the foothills and mountains. Those people with inadequate gear need to stay in their cozy homes on the front range during inclement weather. The traffic laws will soon restrict winter weather travel to vehicles equipped with adequate tires and transmissions. It is true that 4WD vehicles get in trouble because of a false sense of security. However, the 2WD vehicles, even with good tires, are destined to lose traction in snow and ice of any kind. It would be just fine if the 2WD cars were restricted to sunny and dry weather conditions.
08/21/2015 03:51:05 PM · #34
Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by PapaBob:


Totally agree, people who move here tend to buy 4WD's and get into more trouble driving them because they go great on ice and snow but they do not stop any better than a normal car. Good all season tires on a front wheel drive car will get you around town just fine.

The 2WD vehicles are the major cause of crashes and traffic jams in the I-70 corridor during snow and ice events. Also true in the foothills and mountains. Those people with inadequate gear need to stay in their cozy homes on the front range during inclement weather. The traffic laws will soon restrict winter weather travel to vehicles equipped with adequate tires and transmissions. It is true that 4WD vehicles get in trouble because of a false sense of security. However, the 2WD vehicles, even with good tires, are destined to lose traction in snow and ice of any kind. It would be just fine if the 2WD cars were restricted to sunny and dry weather conditions.


Never had an issue in all the these years, I skied every weekend getting up the hills was never a problem. Maybe I am the exception but rarely is 4WD a necessity, it is nice but not a necessity. My wife drives a Honda Civic and has never missed a day of work due to weather. I70 traffic nightmare on a good dry day that is compounded by weather much like California highways in the rain. The news always finds the guy with the bald tires going full throttle wondering why the tires are spinning to make the weather alert news, meanwhile while thousands of two wheels drive cars drive by without an issue. 4WD is nice but not an absolute necessity in my opinion.

Message edited by author 2015-08-21 15:54:10.
08/21/2015 04:10:41 PM · #35
Originally posted by PapaBob:

Never had an issue in all the these years... 4WD is nice but not an absolute necessity in my opinion.


I totally agree. I've lived all my life in an area where we get 50 inches or more of snow per year, and it doesn't melt nearly as often as it does in CO (at least in the plains portion of CO). Tires and driving technique are far, far more important than AWD. In fact, a *lot* of cars with AWD now have performance tires, and they are *much* worse than a car with front-wheel drive and good winter tires.
08/21/2015 06:25:55 PM · #36
Originally posted by kirbic:

In fact, a *lot* of cars with AWD now have performance tires, and they are *much* worse than a car with front-wheel drive and good winter tires.

There IS that aspect, yup. If you don't have off-road or winter tires on your SUV, the 4WD or AWD isn't that much help in snow and ice. Still useful in the rain, though.
08/21/2015 08:04:43 PM · #37
Hmmm..
Our snowfall averages 150 inches per year (front range). The western slopes sometimes receive 600 inches (Breck, Winter Park, Keystone, etc.). Road grades are often 6%. It's a matter of physics. I wouldn't consider living in the mountains without 4wd. Good, aggressive tires are important, too. One doesn't need 4WD in the urban megalopolis, but that's not where I live. I do get to observe a lot of city dwellers come into my area during snowstorms. They routinely slide off the road or get stuck in a snow drift.

Message edited by author 2015-08-21 20:43:05.
08/21/2015 11:16:21 PM · #38
Originally posted by hahn23:

Hmmm..
Our snowfall averages 150 inches per year (front range). The western slopes sometimes receive 600 inches (Breck, Winter Park, Keystone, etc.). Road grades are often 6%. It's a matter of physics. I wouldn't consider living in the mountains without 4wd. Good, aggressive tires are important, too. One doesn't need 4WD in the urban megalopolis, but that's not where I live. I do get to observe a lot of city dwellers come into my area during snowstorms. They routinely slide off the road or get stuck in a snow drift.

And you laugh, and as you ride off on her, your Tauntaun laughs with you, too.
08/22/2015 07:31:26 PM · #39
Originally posted by hahn23:

Hmmm..


Denver isn't the mountains. Or the foothills. This discussion is about someone who is moving to Denver, and living within 5 miles of work on a transit route. Average snowfall in Denver is 53", and there are an average of 2.1 days per year where it snows more than 5" (4.7 days per year it snows more than 3"). Denver itself is pretty much flat, except for a one block long hill on the edge of downtown that might be 3%.

I would assume she has better things to spend her money on than a car that's total overkill for conditions in Denver. Frankly, if I were in her situation, moving to the neighborhood she's planning on moving to, I'm not sure I'd keep the car at all, but I know better than to suggest that. People who are from car dependent locations tend to flip out when you suggest something radical like that.

When I lived in Southern California, loads of people slid off the roads every time it rained. We didn't suggest that they get better cars, we called them idiots, and suggested that they slow the f*** down.

edit: here's where I got the data about Denver showfall.

Message edited by author 2015-08-22 19:38:40.
08/23/2015 09:34:16 AM · #40
She actually considered no car but wants to get a feel for the city first, you know find things. IMHO I don't think it would be wise as 2/3 times a wk (this week 5 days) she is closing. Which means 2-4 am - riding transit systems in the wee hours of the morning in a city she's never been in. Personally I'm not to keen on that...mother radar is up n humming!!!

It appears she is going to live in Lakewood area. It's about 13 miles from work so at this point she will be driving to n from wk. she does have good snow/rain tires so she should be good to go. And she's become a more cautious driver in recent years. Yea!!

Thank you again for your advice...

08/23/2015 10:47:48 AM · #41
Originally posted by Ann:


Denver isn't the mountains. Or the foothills. ...

Lost in the averages are the occasional big ones. Because of the number of cars and people in Denver, the heavy storms paralyze the city. Only a problem for those who choose to drive in the city during these (thankfully) rare events.

A LIST of Colorado’s historic blizzards and snowstorms
08/24/2015 08:24:02 AM · #42
Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by Ann:


Denver isn't the mountains. Or the foothills. ...

Lost in the averages are the occasional big ones. Because of the number of cars and people in Denver, the heavy storms paralyze the city. Only a problem for those who choose to drive in the city during these (thankfully) rare events.

A LIST of Colorado’s historic blizzards and snowstorms


And when those big storms hit they shut everything down and ask people With non essential jobs not to drive........
08/24/2015 03:08:34 PM · #43
Originally posted by hahn23:


A LIST of Colorado’s historic blizzards and snowstorms


Ah, yes, I lived through a few of those. It was the March 1983 storm where my brother and I went skiing during the day, and there was a freak storm while we were up the hill that only affected the lowlands. It was then that I discovered that a 1977 VW Rabbit can drive in 18" of snow just fine. The whole way home, the snow kept getting deeper, and we were expecting to have to abandon the car and walk. But we got all the way home, pushing snow up and over the hood for the half mile.

It was just my brother and I, and a few trucks and snowplows out on the road. Everyone else was at home drinking hot chocolate (or just drinking) by then. Our biggest problem was that we had planned to go out to dinner, and nothing was open.
08/24/2015 03:45:40 PM · #44
The Christmas Eve 1982 was the one I remember most, spent the day up in Pine Jnction with family, they tried to get us to stay over but we had a young Lab that we had to get home to take care of. Made it all the way to my driveway and slammed the car into a drift to get the car out of the roadway. Went inside to find the dog had punctured the water bed (back then they were popular) and water was leaking into the lower level. Spent a long night cleaning up the mess,
08/24/2015 04:24:19 PM · #45
Originally posted by PapaBob:

The Christmas Eve 1982 was the one I remember most, spent the day up in Pine Jnction with family, they tried to get us to stay over but we had a young Lab that we had to get home to take care of. Made it all the way to my driveway and slammed the car into a drift to get the car out of the roadway. Went inside to find the dog had punctured the water bed (back then they were popular) and water was leaking into the lower level. Spent a long night cleaning up the mess,


I remember that one well. I went to my parents' for Christmas, and got stuck there until it stopped snowing a day later. The next day the temperature dropped to -25, and stayed there for the next 3 weeks. At the time, the city didn't plow the side streets, preferring to let things melt (which had always worked before). After a few days of nothing melting, they decided the best plan of action was to run garbage trucks up and down all of the side streets to pack things down. Which turned them all to solid ice. I couldn't walk on the street in front of my apartment. I was in college and didn't have a car at the time, so spent many hours standing in -25 weather, waiting for buses that didn't come because of the road conditions.

The following May, the mayor, who had been the mayor for 15 years and had, until that point, an impenetrable political machine, was defeated on a snow removal platform. The next mayor spent millions on snowplows and snowstorm planning.
08/24/2015 05:06:43 PM · #46
Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by PapaBob:

The Christmas Eve 1982 was the one I remember most, spent the day up in Pine Jnction with family, they tried to get us to stay over but we had a young Lab that we had to get home to take care of. Made it all the way to my driveway and slammed the car into a drift to get the car out of the roadway. Went inside to find the dog had punctured the water bed (back then they were popular) and water was leaking into the lower level. Spent a long night cleaning up the mess,


I remember that one well. I went to my parents' for Christmas, and got stuck there until it stopped snowing a day later. The next day the temperature dropped to -25, and stayed there for the next 3 weeks. At the time, the city didn't plow the side streets, preferring to let things melt (which had always worked before). After a few days of nothing melting, they decided the best plan of action was to run garbage trucks up and down all of the side streets to pack things down. Which turned them all to solid ice. I couldn't walk on the street in front of my apartment. I was in college and didn't have a car at the time, so spent many hours standing in -25 weather, waiting for buses that didn't come because of the road conditions.

The following May, the mayor, who had been the mayor for 15 years and had, until that point, an impenetrable political machine, was defeated on a snow removal platform. The next mayor spent millions on snowplows and snowstorm planning.


And the Mayor went on to be the national transportation secretary, pretty ironic
08/24/2015 10:00:56 PM · #47
Originally posted by PapaBob:


the Mayor went on to be the national transportation secretary, pretty ironic


True dat!
08/25/2015 12:26:29 AM · #48
Unable to leave well enough alone, I looked up the person who was making such appointments in 1982 1995.
Google is a wonderful thing.

Message edited by author 2015-08-26 17:01:43.
08/25/2015 05:18:58 PM · #49
I was only there for #7 -- 21.9 inches on October 24-25, 1997, but I'm glad that one made the list. We had just bought a house in Evergreen, and literally moved in a week or so before the storm. The house was near Bear Mountain, 8,500 feet up, and at the end of a winding dirt road. Started to snow and never stopped, and when the sun came out we were stranded for about 2 or 3 days until the plows even reached us. Power was out for a day or so, and we had food, but not a lot. At least we were on a well and had a big propane tank or we would have been SOL. For Xmas that year, our friends gave us a giant box of powdered milk (like 4x4 giant), with a card that said "Be Prepared." :-)

Originally posted by Ann:

Originally posted by PapaBob:


the Mayor went on to be the national transportation secretary, pretty ironic


True dat!

That wasn't til around '95 right? Pena? Think he got there on the back of that shiny new be-tented airport out on the plains, when everyone was well greased and forgot what happend back in '82 :)
08/25/2015 11:25:59 PM · #50
I have to jump in on the winter driving topic. BUY WINTER TIRES. I live in northwestern ontario. It's a 7 hour drive north of minneapolis, we will have snow stay on the ground from November to April. I have driven a 99 acura TL the last 6 years with winter tires. I can make it to work in 2 ft of snow. I will pass 4x4 SUVs that are stuck in the snow because of using all season tires. Good snow tires are around $1500, but definatley worth it.
4x4 vehicles will help you accelarate in the snow, but gives you a false sense of control. You will not steer or stop better. But they are great if you know how to drive one.

My 2 cents.
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