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07/28/2015 11:22:03 AM · #1
Hi!

I know that individual voting approaches have been discussed before, but I am curious to know more about how many of you that actually use the whole scale on a regular basis. And what is your "meets the challenge topic, but that is about it. I don't particularly like anything else in this image" score? Mine has been 5 until now, but I am thinking of changing it. However I would love to get your two cent before I expand my scale downwards. As of now I have, after scoring 5,656 images, never given a 1 or a 2 (as far as I can recall). For those of you who use 1s and 2s on a regular basis - Is a 1: A) "DNMC", B) "I really think this is an awful image, both technically and creatively" or C) "DNMC, plus I really think this is an awful image, both technically and creatively". Or something completely different?

I will admit that what prompted this thread and has made me contemplating expanding my scale is receiving a couple of 1s and 2s in the last challenge I entered and I am fairly certain I have received several in the ongoing Liquid challenge. I hope you believe me when I say that I am on some childish vengeful rampage. If it was I would not make a public thread about it. I would just do it. Haha... Receiving them, just go me thinking that the 1-10 scale was probably chosen for a reason originally. I would be grateful for any input, so that I know how common it is to use the whole scale. Another thing, if most voters only use 2/3 of the scale does that not means that a 5, which technically is the median, is in fact not "good/okay", but "less than good"? I am a bit confused and feel like I might have been using the "wrong" scale the whole time I have been here. I realise that what qualifies as amazing in lack of better words, is of course subjective, but I would feel more confident in my voting if I knew I was actually using more or less the same scale as the rest of you - in relation to knowing which areas of the scale different values are located, if that makes sense. The way I understand it, regardless of which features you value or look at when you give a total score (creativeness, technicality, emotion etc) you still rate the images, so where is your amazing, good, okay, not good, awful and DNMC located on the scale. Wow, this was harder to explain than I thought it would :) Also, what are people's thoughts on descriptive text accompanying the different numbers? Text that highlights that the scale is standardised, but the vote subjective. Is that even possible?

Thanks for reading! Let me now if anything was unclear :) Arna Marie
07/28/2015 11:43:51 AM · #2
i will on occasion; but not every challenge.
this has been discussed a lot, and most people vote consistently was the finding.
if they like an image; for whatever reason, they vote it high.
if they dislike an image; for whatever reason, they vote it low.
I have given out 1's, and I have given out 10's. I generally give out 5-8's with the ones I dislike in a challenge getting an occasional 4.

If I'm in a particularly grumpy/bad mood I will give out more low votes, and at some points I will become so entranced by an image that it stops me in my tracks and I change how I vote after that image. This will, on occasion, cause me to revisit and bump up/down other entries I've previously voted on to keep things consistent in a challenge I vote on.

Is it the way others would choose to vote? Probably not; but it's consistent for me, and at the end of the day, a single outlier vote will not change the overall rankings, though it can cause the difference in ribbons/hms that are closely scored.

I will also sometimes stop voting on a challenge after a % due to time, and not go back to finish voting. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and you're opening up the topic of using the whole range in voting. I don't want to speed-vote just to ensure I get 100% voting done; I'd rather have legitimate voting on images that I vote on where I can spend the amount of time I choose to spend before making up my mind.
07/28/2015 11:48:39 AM · #3
you will soon see that everyone uses the scale differently.

I don't give out 1s very often. The image has to offend me in some way, even if it's just a complete lack of creativity or spirit. The image can meet the challenge and still get a 1. I do include the challenge topic in my score, but mostly as a way to raise the score, not lower it. A subtle, creative and/or interesting interpretation of the challenge will raise the score.
07/28/2015 11:53:31 AM · #4
thank god you asked this question, i'm not aware anyone has weighed in on this topic yet.
07/28/2015 11:53:51 AM · #5
^^^^^ sarcasm :P
07/28/2015 12:13:45 PM · #6
Originally posted by Mike:

thank god you asked this question, i'm not aware anyone has weighed in on this topic yet.


Thanks you so much for your valuable contribution to the thread, Mike!

See, I too know sarcasm! You made it easy for me :)

Message edited by author 2015-07-28 12:14:48.
07/28/2015 12:27:06 PM · #7
truth be told this topic has been discussed ad nauseam.

just vote how you like, it really doesn't matter how others vote.
07/28/2015 12:36:44 PM · #8
Originally posted by RyanW:

i will on occasion; but not every challenge.
this has been discussed a lot, and most people vote consistently was the finding.
if they like an image; for whatever reason, they vote it high.
if they dislike an image; for whatever reason, they vote it low.
I have given out 1's, and I have given out 10's. I generally give out 5-8's with the ones I dislike [You meant like, right?] in a challenge getting an occasional 4.

If I'm in a particularly grumpy/bad mood I will give out more low votes, and at some points I will become so entranced by an image that it stops me in my tracks and I change how I vote after that image. This will, on occasion, cause me to revisit and bump up/down other entries I've previously voted on to keep things consistent in a challenge I vote on.

Is it the way others would choose to vote? Probably not; but it's consistent for me, and at the end of the day, a single outlier vote will not change the overall rankings, though it can cause the difference in ribbons/hms that are closely scored.

I will also sometimes stop voting on a challenge after a % due to time, and not go back to finish voting. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and you're opening up the topic of using the whole range in voting. I don't want to speed-vote just to ensure I get 100% voting done; I'd rather have legitimate voting on images that I vote on where I can spend the amount of time I choose to spend before making up my mind.


So am I correct in assuming that you are before voting "prepared to use" (I don't know a better English expression) the whole scale, but the reason why you rarely give out 1s and 2s is because you do not often come across entries that "deserve" it?
07/28/2015 12:48:56 PM · #9
Originally posted by ArnaMarie:

Originally posted by RyanW:

i will on occasion; but not every challenge.
this has been discussed a lot, and most people vote consistently was the finding.
if they like an image; for whatever reason, they vote it high.
if they dislike an image; for whatever reason, they vote it low.
I have given out 1's, and I have given out 10's. I generally give out 5-8's with the ones I dislike [You meant like, right?] in a challenge getting an occasional 4.

If I'm in a particularly grumpy/bad mood I will give out more low votes, and at some points I will become so entranced by an image that it stops me in my tracks and I change how I vote after that image. This will, on occasion, cause me to revisit and bump up/down other entries I've previously voted on to keep things consistent in a challenge I vote on.

Is it the way others would choose to vote? Probably not; but it's consistent for me, and at the end of the day, a single outlier vote will not change the overall rankings, though it can cause the difference in ribbons/hms that are closely scored.

I will also sometimes stop voting on a challenge after a % due to time, and not go back to finish voting. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and you're opening up the topic of using the whole range in voting. I don't want to speed-vote just to ensure I get 100% voting done; I'd rather have legitimate voting on images that I vote on where I can spend the amount of time I choose to spend before making up my mind.


So am I correct in assuming that you are before voting "prepared to use" (I don't know a better English expression) the whole scale, but the reason why you rarely give out 1s and 2s is because you do not often come across entries that "deserve" it?


Totally true. I feel that if someone had the courage to come up with an entry it's worth minimum 5. So my voting scale is 5-10. Rarely do I give a lower vote than a 5.
07/28/2015 01:06:36 PM · #10
Originally posted by posthumous:

I don't give out 1s very often. The image has to offend me in some way, even if it's just a complete lack of creativity or spirit. The image can meet the challenge and still get a 1


See I find this very interesting. Not because I think this is wrong. Actually, quite the contrary!

Let me give an example (that luckily does not happened very often) I have, perhaps on 20 occasions out of the 5500 entries I have voted on, come across an image that I find so over-saturated and cheesy that I'm afraid that if I look at it for too long I will start vomiting rainbows. Such images may be well-composed without technical flaws, it may even be creative, but because of the way the person has processed it the image is ruined for me. I am in such instances too much of a chicken to leave a comment explaining that I have given them a 1 because the processing in my opinion has ruined it. I am equally uncomfortable just giving the 1 or a 2 score and not leave a comment, because I know how demotivating it is to get such votes without an explanation or a suggestion for how to improve. In these instances I have either given the images a higher vote than I think it deserves (just because it includes the challenge theme) or I have refrained from casting a vote on that particular image.

Edit:
I reread this. I tried to be funny, but it reads much harsher than I intended :)

Message edited by author 2015-07-28 13:13:04.
07/28/2015 01:48:00 PM · #11
No, I don't. Every image in every challenge is rated in its own merit and against the topic guidelines. 10's aren't given easily, nor do I think they should be - but I do give them. I don't grade on a curve, and I don't vote when I'm angry.

Everything else I typed I also erased on this topic. :)
07/28/2015 01:54:01 PM · #12
I have pretty much decided that explaining a bad score I give is no more valuable than giving kudos when I give a high score. I've said it here before - if someone wants to get better, they can't count exclusively on comments on their challenge entries. They should look at images they like and images that do well, and seek out how to create a better image for themselves.

You really should not hold back on scores. If not for the photographer, then for yourself. I used to hold back but now I go with the gut more I guess.

Originally posted by ArnaMarie:

I am equally uncomfortable just giving the 1 or a 2 score and not leave a comment, because I know how demotivating it is to get such votes without an explanation or a suggestion for how to improve. In these instances I have either given the images a higher vote than I think it deserves (just because it includes the challenge theme) or I have refrained from casting a vote on that particular image.
...
Edit:
I reread this. I tried to be funny, but it reads much harsher than I intended :)
07/28/2015 01:54:22 PM · #13
Originally posted by Ja-9:

I feel that if someone had the courage to come up with an entry it's worth minimum 5. So my voting scale is 5-10. Rarely do I give a lower vote than a 5.


I'm almost with you, Janine. For me you get a 5 for anything that doesn't feel like you said, "Oh crap, I need to shoot something", and whip off something skewed and un(der)processed snapshot on your phone. Yes, I realize that can actually be a "style" - I'm giving my self some latitude in being able to recognize the intent when the shot was taken instead of, "Ooooh, there's a twig - we have 'Crooked' due tonight!!" (no offense intended to all you twig shooters).
07/28/2015 01:56:33 PM · #14
Originally posted by Mike:

truth be told this topic has been discussed ad nauseam.

just vote how you like, it really doesn't matter how others vote.


I completely understand that you might be sick of the discussion, but not everyone has been her as long as you or they may not be as active in the forum as others. Also, because occasionally threads are created where people rant and rave over how others vote I feel inclined to reflect on my own voting.

I appreciate that you say I shouldn't care about what others vote, but I do. Not because I feel like I need to vote as other and consequently avoid being the odd one out, but because by voting somewhat similar to other I avoid being the one who gives that one extremely low vote that might potentially discourage the receiver. I guess I should just work on being comfortable voting honest on images I dislike and get better at wording constructive and respectful feedback with such votes.

Edited spelling mistakes

Message edited by author 2015-07-29 00:08:42.
07/28/2015 02:05:38 PM · #15
Originally posted by ArnaMarie:

Originally posted by RyanW:

i will on occasion; but not every challenge.
this has been discussed a lot, and most people vote consistently was the finding.
if they like an image; for whatever reason, they vote it high.
if they dislike an image; for whatever reason, they vote it low.
I have given out 1's, and I have given out 10's. I generally give out 5-8's with the ones I dislike [You meant like, right?] in a challenge getting an occasional 4.

If I'm in a particularly grumpy/bad mood I will give out more low votes, and at some points I will become so entranced by an image that it stops me in my tracks and I change how I vote after that image. This will, on occasion, cause me to revisit and bump up/down other entries I've previously voted on to keep things consistent in a challenge I vote on.

Is it the way others would choose to vote? Probably not; but it's consistent for me, and at the end of the day, a single outlier vote will not change the overall rankings, though it can cause the difference in ribbons/hms that are closely scored.

I will also sometimes stop voting on a challenge after a % due to time, and not go back to finish voting. I don't like it, but it's the truth, and you're opening up the topic of using the whole range in voting. I don't want to speed-vote just to ensure I get 100% voting done; I'd rather have legitimate voting on images that I vote on where I can spend the amount of time I choose to spend before making up my mind.


So am I correct in assuming that you are before voting "prepared to use" (I don't know a better English expression) the whole scale, but the reason why you rarely give out 1s and 2s is because you do not often come across entries that "deserve" it?

generally, yes. I'm not saying that i'll rule out a 1 vote before I go into a challenge, but it has to be quite awful, or I have to be in a PRETTY BAD mood, to give it out.
07/28/2015 02:10:24 PM · #16
Originally posted by ArnaMarie:

... I avoid being the one who gives that one extremely low vote that might potentially discourage the receiver. I guess I should just work on being comfortable being voting honest on images I dislike and get better at wording constructive and respectful feedback with such votes.


The hardest part about voting low is the reason why. Sometimes there is no quantifiable reason, you just don't like it and can't explain it.
I've commented as such sometimes both ways "I can't explain why, I just (don't) like this image".

I've been offended at some entries, given the subject matter, title and challenge; and I've set out to be offensive on one or two occasions myself. I'm at least honest about it, which is something not everybody can say. I know when I'm a jerk, I own those times because they're still who I am - doesn't mean I have to like it.
07/28/2015 02:16:05 PM · #17
1's are "Angry Votes". You hate it and you just need to move on.

2's are "Angrier Votes". Why? Because you took enough time to look at it and determine that as a piece of photography it has next to no merit. You actually have contempt for this photo because you took enough time in your mind to look at it long enough to somehow determine that it didn't merit a 1. 2's, to me, are "Spiteful 1's".

At least that's how I see it - but not how I vote it!!

And yes, that's supposed to be (at least somewhat) humorous!!!

Message edited by author 2015-07-28 14:16:48.
07/28/2015 02:58:52 PM · #18
Since there are no guide lines that are specific, i ask myself some general questions.
1) Does the image meet the challenge?
2) Clarity - How in focus is it, intentionally or mistakenly and also is point of view coming across to the viewer.
3) Processing, Good/Poor - Over/Under
4) Would I hang it in my house? (This is a determining factor for the very best all around images)
5) keeping an open mind. When I have an image in a challenge I try to vote right away so I am not bias due to my good or bad score.
6) I try be fair, I go back to adjust scoring after I complete my scores. I want the best ones to win, someone worked hard for a great image.
if I feel the image is vile or indiscreet I don't vote on it, this has only happened once or twice.

Some images meet the challenge and thats about it, others meet the challenge from a different point of view but are beautiful and interesting. I look for what I think the intention is, processing tells a lot about the intention of a good image.
i always keep in mind no one in the 5 range is going to make top 10 for the most part.

I try to remember that everyone works hard on their images and wants to share them and be part of this group of photographers, either technically or artistically and quite often both.
This is just something i do for me, certainly not parameters for all.
07/28/2015 06:59:58 PM · #19
I agree with janine and Jake. I rarely vote below a 5. My range is usually between 5 and 8 with occasional 9 and 10's.
Of late, what used to be a 5 has become a 6 for me. It is so easy to be hyper critical and jaded after so many years of voting.

I encouraged a friend who was just getting into photography to join DPC telling her that it was a great learning experience.
She lasted one year and had very few comments and never scored above a 5.6 and was about to pack it in and not renew
her membership when she got a Posthumous award. She renewed her membership just because she felt that someone was
'getting' her work.

(She only entered Free Studies because she ran into a major health crisis and her time to shoot was limited). I think of the new people
who join hoping for feedback and critiques who just aren't getting any feedback. I have to remind myself how important commenting is. I often
intend to go back and comment and never do. It takes time and commitment to make this place work.
07/28/2015 07:15:03 PM · #20
I use almost the full scale. For some reason, I don't do 2's. Over a year ago, I struggled with my own internal consistency in voting and attempted to create a process that would be consistent. I think it has done so, although I'm finding that my voting average in current challenges has fallen a bit this year. This is likely due to a shifting of tastes away from highly technical, "beautiful" images to more appreciation of emotional and artistic content that speaks to me on a gut level other than, "gosh, that's really pretty." By the way, DNMC means very little to me, probably a point either way, most often for a creative application of the theme.

Here are the details:

First Pass: Assign only 5 or 6
- 6's for entries that immediately engage my interest or appreciation of emotional content, appropriate composition and technique, effective processing, abstract/creative vision, or a unique/interesting take on the challenge.
- 5's for images that fail to engage my interest, or are lacking in emotion or creative vision, are tired cliches, shoehorns, little more than a snapshot, or just plain not interesting for me to look at.

Second Pass of 6's: Re-scoring to a range of 6-10
- 6's for most entries originally scored as a 6 using the criteria above. I like the image and find it to be above average, but not a stand-out or inspiring for me.
- 7's for any entry I'd be proud to have entered. Something that I believe to be artistically and technically within my capacity to emulate (and would aspire to).
- 8's for inspiring images that make me stop and reflect on the techniques or creative vision. Something that might be just outside my capacity to emulate (for now), but demonstrates technique or a way of seeing that I would like to learn.
- 9's for outstanding images that stop me in my tracks with a "wow factor" that makes me want to keep looking or keep coming back. May or may not be within my current technical capacity to emulate, but are definitely inspiring.
- 10's for only what I consider to be the most exceptional images that additionally appeal to my eclectic and evolving personal tastes. I often add 10's to my list of favorites.

Second Pass of 5's: Re-scoring to a range of 5-1
- 5's for most entries originally scored as 5. Either lacking technically, compositionally, or creatively, and/or are just not my cup of tea.
- 4's for images that to me are technically weak, compositionally disorganized, lacking a discernible subject and/or connection to the challenge theme.
- 3's for entries that really miss the mark for me. Lacking a combination of aesthetics, technicals, creativity, and/or connection to the challenge.
- 2's for... well - I just don't give 2's at this time. The act of participation alone seems to warrant a three or better. Unless I'm feeling really grumpy and judgmental and feel like giving a...
- 1 for the extremely rare entry that I presume to be a purposeful attempt at failure, or that I find to be egregiously offensive (and I'm not easily offended).

Seems like a lot of words, but it's working a year out, and then some. And... it's not as time consuming as you might think. The first pass is pretty quick - there is no average vote in a ten point scale, so if I like it, it's a 6, if not it's a 5. The second pass is the more enjoyable part of the process, slower, reflective, thoughtful... especially for the images I'm moving up from 6 or down from 5. On rare occasions, I'll change my mind in the second pass and move a 5 to 6 or a 6 to 5.

07/28/2015 07:35:19 PM · #21
I use the full scale, but as should be expected, the vast majority fall in the middle of that scale, for me that is the 4-6 range, with a dispersion getting smaller as you move away from those values. It varies, of course, from challenge to challenge, but overall that would be pretty accurate. When you think about it, if you are not using the full scale, you are just designating a higher start value, and therefore a higher overall score, but the overall impact on the position of the image in the challenge is unchanged. Effectively, your 5 and my 1 are the same thing.

I find it troublesome sometimes to vote on a scale of 1 to 10, as I would like a higher range to better separate images that currently get the same score. Often I think one deserves a better score than the other, but neither is good enough for a higher score (I would like to see a .5 added). This problem would just be exaggerated if I chose to limit my range even more.
07/28/2015 08:08:07 PM · #22
Major thing for me is that I HATE receiving 5 n under (deserved or not) therefore in the "Pay It Forward" mind set. Why the sam hell would I give ANYONE else a 5 or below...

Ever since I adopted the "give it back theory" my scores have risen (geez might my entries be a bit better????). Coincidence or whatever..."I" feel better about it. Ya'll want me to vote!!!
07/28/2015 08:15:25 PM · #23
Originally posted by wbanning:

... images that fail to engage my interest, or are lacking in emotion or creative vision, are tired cliches, shoehorns ....

That reminds me, can someone give a cogent description of the essential differences between "shoehorn" and "out-of-the-box creativity" ... other than one being -1 point and the other being +1 point ... :-)

Also, just a reminder that a vote of 5 means "slightly below average" on this scale ...
07/28/2015 09:40:18 PM · #24
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by wbanning:

... images that fail to engage my interest, or are lacking in emotion or creative vision, are tired cliches, shoehorns ....

That reminds me, can someone give a cogent description of the essential differences between "shoehorn" and "out-of-the-box creativity" ... other than one being -1 point and the other being +1 point ... :-)

Also, just a reminder that a vote of 5 means "slightly below average" on this scale ...


Your point about shoehorn vs out of the box is a good one and perhaps reveals an inconsistency in my rubric. I may need to make an edit, as I do from time to time. Bottom line is for me is that 1-5 is on the "don't care for this" side of the scale and 5-10 is on the "this appeals to me" side. The higher and lower scores are nuanced by five steps up or down. No photo sits in the middle of average on my scoring scale.Thank you for the thought-providing feedback.

And, yep, I know that a five is slightly below average on this scale. It actually forces a thumbs up or thumbs down choice by each individual voter. There may be an "average" aggregate score on DPC but, in my opinion, there shouldn't be an "average" individual vote on any picture. Any even numbered scale should logically create a forced choice good or bad.
07/28/2015 10:00:34 PM · #25
Cats and beautiful women get high marks from me LOL
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