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07/26/2015 03:58:46 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by 2mccs:
Originally posted by Nordlys:
A perfectly performed scale or arpeggio is boring for me to hear, yet an unskilled performance of a beautiful musical piece distracts me from its beauty. True art, for me, requires both creativity and skill. . |
A perfectly played piece of music is performed by an orchestra using the technical and artistic skills of the musicians but the orchestra isn't starting with a blank piece of paper. They are reading music written by a composer. The composer created the music for the orchestra to play.
Photographers are handed a blank page. We can choose to use someone else's "composed music" and reproduce it with our own technical skills. Or, we can be the composers of our own music and write the original songs. |
Yes but I believe the objection here is when we use someone else's "composed music" and call it our own. When you attend a concert, you are told before you hear the music that somebody else wrote it. |
Yes, you are correct of course but I believe most of the DPC entries have either completely or partially skipped the first step (of composing their own music) because it is the most difficult to figure out how to accomplish. There are many resources to teach the technical skills and those skills are the easy part of making a photograph. Figuring out how to get something unique/personal and meaningful from inside of ourselves into a photograph, that is extremely difficult. There really are no instructions for that. So we all have to bump along the best we can. We will all be influenced by the work of others to differing degrees. I look through the work of photographers I enjoy and I think I probably internalize the parts that mean something to me. I hope that I then have something happen internally that results in my making a unique photograph of my own that I find meaningful. I do believe that internally is where true creativity happens and I don't believe I would find it by googling or copying others styles but I believe most people are doing the best they can. I think the scoring on DPC prevents a lot of people from trying to create something more personal and unique because those photographs don't score well.....but they can get the very valuable alternative bling :-).
Message edited by author 2015-07-26 16:09:06. |
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07/26/2015 04:51:49 PM · #52 |
| Of course, everyone is influenced by their experiences and maybe that's the difference... I'm lucky that my experiences include visiting museums and going to concerts all my life and I have a wealth of knowledge (I like to think anyway, especially since age is my friend) to pull from before making my OWN work. For those who need it, inspiration is everywhere, including the internet, and there's nothing wrong with using whatever tools you can find, IMO. But if you copy somebody else's idea ONLY, that's not inspiration anymore. And learning technicals by doing it is not an excuse. One can learn technicals from studying the technicals used in creating the original idea and then make an original image. Me, I read EXIF. A lot. I wish it were a requirement to include it here, but I pick my arguments. |
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07/26/2015 05:06:04 PM · #53 |
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07/26/2015 05:32:53 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Learning is doing. |
That's 100% correct. And copying can help one learn. But posting something that you copied (especially if it's not attributed) is second-rate, IMO, probably worse. |
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07/26/2015 05:35:40 PM · #55 |
Just so I understand, are we talking about a full copy of somebody elses photograph or simply having a similar photograph to somebody else but following a similar theme?
I'm pretty sure that most of the 'unique' images seen her can be found elsewhere (somewhere). In fact if you look at last dozen or so challenge results the only images that I can truly say I've not seen "similar" versions of before are expert challenge images that are not really photographs anymore (and they may well be total rip offs of others work for all I know).
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07/26/2015 06:18:43 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
[...] For those who need it, inspiration is everywhere, including the internet, and there's nothing wrong with using whatever tools you can find, IMO. But if you copy somebody else's idea ONLY, that's not inspiration anymore. And learning technicals by doing it is not an excuse. [my underlining] One can learn technicals from studying the technicals used in creating the original idea and then make an original image[...] |
I don't know if this was a reply to my comment, but regardless I feel a need to clarify that I do not think it is okay to copy someone's ideas and misrepresent it as your own, even if it originally was to learn technique. I have several times tried to emulate elements of someone else's photo, style or technique (EXIF is actually the first I look at if it is available), for training purposes, but I would never ever make these attempts public :)
......
Edit:
Would just like to add something. I've reread this and my first comment and have come to realised that I was not as clear, nor as articulated, as I would have liked to be. I can for example see how "Until then I hope these photographers will take the fact that I think they are worth [terrible choice of words] imitating as a compliment" could come across as really disrespectful and nonchalant, and as me not giving a sh*t about ownership. To the contrary, I have the utmost respect for other people's work.
Message edited by author 2015-07-26 19:27:48. |
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07/26/2015 06:25:29 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by ArnaMarie:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
[...] For those who need it, inspiration is everywhere, including the internet, and there's nothing wrong with using whatever tools you can find, IMO. But if you copy somebody else's idea ONLY, that's not inspiration anymore. And learning technicals by doing it is not an excuse. [my underlining] One can learn technicals from studying the technicals used in creating the original idea and then make an original image[...] |
I don't know if this was a reply to my comment, but regardless I feel a need to clarify that I do not think it is okay to copy someone's ideas and misrepresent it as your own, even if it originally was to learn technique. I have several times tried to emulate elements of someone else's photo, style or technique (EXIF is actually the first I look at if it is available), for training purposes, but I would never ever make these attempts public :) |
No, it was a response, in general, to things I've read in this thread. Sorry if it hit a nerve with you. |
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07/26/2015 06:30:01 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:
Just so I understand, are we talking about a full copy of somebody elses photograph or simply having a similar photograph to somebody else but following a similar theme?
I'm pretty sure that most of the 'unique' images seen her can be found elsewhere (somewhere). In fact if you look at last dozen or so challenge results the only images that I can truly say I've not seen "similar" versions of before are expert challenge images that are not really photographs anymore (and they may well be total rip offs of others work for all I know). |
Really, I'll take that on... please review MY last dozen or so images and tell me if you find "similar" versions out there anywhere. |
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07/26/2015 06:53:43 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Ecce_Signum:
Just so I understand, are we talking about a full copy of somebody elses photograph or simply having a similar photograph to somebody else but following a similar theme?
I'm pretty sure that most of the 'unique' images seen her can be found elsewhere (somewhere). In fact if you look at last dozen or so challenge results the only images that I can truly say I've not seen "similar" versions of before are expert challenge images that are not really photographs anymore (and they may well be total rip offs of others work for all I know). |
I'm not so sure I see the issue (which is creativity vs lack of creativity) as involving merely copying, whether style or subject matter versus coming up with something wholly unique. That seems to me like a flatland approach.
If you are not photographing out of some inner necessity, you will never approach any kind of meaningfulness. |
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07/26/2015 07:48:47 PM · #60 |
you cant copyright an idea, thus you are free to copy someone's else idea.
people are on the fence about whether is ethically ok to do so, but since we are all different, do whatever you want. if people want to go on a witch hunt protecting the ideas of others, let them, if you can live with yourself taking a picture of an unoriginal idea, that's all that matters. |
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07/26/2015 08:52:12 PM · #61 |
| By the standards being expressed by some here, I've never taken an "original" photograph in my life. Pffft... |
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07/26/2015 09:14:43 PM · #62 |
It's an interesting question, so I'll go on about it for longer than anyone cares. For starters, it was hatched by a poet, which is to say it was purposefully cryptic and engineered for unending interpretation.
"Voting on creativity" is a flawed premise out of the gate, as creativity here is mostly perceived as a clever idea -- and many "clever ideas" presented here originated elsewhere. "Original" or "uninfluenced" might've been terms I'd have used, but I'm rarely relied upon for good decisions and understand not being consulted on verbiage.
In a vacuum most of us would agree that borrowing ideas is poor form, or lazy, but here, at what's commonly referred to as a "learning" site, it's hard for me to get too bothered by it. There is no check box while entering a challenge that requires you to declare it was your idea. Furthermore, these pinterest sites and lists and whatnot seem to exist to get people to try this at home. Sure, why not trot it out here anonymously for honest opinions? I can't say I recognize when an idea is borrowed from elsewhere, and that's really up to the photographer to decide whether or not that's what they want to do with their photography. Mastering equipment and lighting and editing is a fair hobby. That's the environment here and I understand that.
That said, while this site is rumored to be a learning site, it is by all definitions a contest. Recreating ideas found elsewhere for the sake of scoring or placing higher seems rather plastic.
My biggest gripe is that in the search for inspiration people find not jumping off points, but boxes into which to squeeze narrow ideas of what the challenge is about. The most glaringly comedic example of this was the recent Side by Side challenge, where the suggestion of what a challenge entry could look like didn't serve as inspiration, but rather a strict definition of expectations for nearly all involved. |
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07/26/2015 09:18:57 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
By the standards being expressed by some here, I've never taken an "original" photograph in my life. Pffft... |
and this is why "I Love you/your work".... |
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07/26/2015 09:22:35 PM · #64 |
I have a suggestion....
why doesn't everyone go out and "VOTE" on the closing challenge which BTW has a mere 65+ votes with 2 hours & 38 minutes to go... |
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07/26/2015 09:43:32 PM · #65 |
This has been an interesting subject because I never knew if it was on the line of "copying or plagiarizing" or just in general learning on trying to capture a moment and learning on how to create my own wow being creative by oneself, and learn a technique to help build photography skills or in the expert editing, learning to manipulate images.
For me, I have spent tons and a lot of time on google and pinterest and even other forums, blogs learning sites, because of certain challenge topics..has been great; I see something, Yes, I want to create it but just do not have the means, the subjects nor do I have the equipment or special lenses or lighting, so its make it up, and ad lib something and somehow, along the way, it seems it still is kinda cheating, especially, "in the style of" does it ever feel it is my own style or my own image because I had to try to copy someone else and try to set up someone else's image.
Even though it is within my own subjects and surroundings.. It just never fits "the creative groove". Until that time of getting out of the groove, I don't ever feel "creative" enough and to learn that certain spunk style that separates my images from everyone else. It is another to actually "know" what that is and how to achieve it. So, until then onward it goes.
Sometimes, being a newbie sucks.
How are we supposed to find our own style or know what it is when there are constant challenges trying to copy others techniques or subjects? I find it very hard to separate such things and know what that is. At least now, after a year, I know what I love to shoot and what I don't. I know what is comfy within my bubble and what is not. To learn the other technical aspects its never ending and I know I have very long way to go yet.
I think ( or I would like to think so) there is a difference from actually copying someone's idea to learn how its done for technique purposes and then to create your own, than to actually trying to steal on purpose someone's actual idea or photos and making it their own to benefit a person's owns benefit and needs.
Message edited by author 2015-07-26 21:55:15. |
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07/26/2015 10:02:40 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by tnun:
If you are not photographing out of some inner necessity, you will never approach any kind of meaningfulness. |
+1,000,000,000...I love this. |
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07/26/2015 11:03:43 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
By the standards being expressed by some here, I've never taken an "original" photograph in my life. Pffft... |
do you mean actual standards or straw standards? a lot of straw definitions of originality on this thread. |
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07/26/2015 11:12:33 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
By the standards being expressed by some here, I've never taken an "original" photograph in my life. Pffft... |
do you mean actual standards or straw standards? a lot of straw definitions of originality on this thread. |
Heck, *I* don't know which is which anymore, I don't worry about that stuff a whole lot. I do what I do, and that's pretty much an end of it. I've never claimed to be "original" or especially creative, and I don't consider myself much of an artist at all, honestly. I've been fortunate in my life to associate closely with genuine photographic artists, and I'm in awe of what they can produce. I'm generally a good technician, though, and I like to think I know "good art" when I see it, though that's of course entirely subjective.
Message edited by author 2015-07-26 23:13:12. |
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07/26/2015 11:16:19 PM · #69 |
| Let me add: from an "artistic" perspective, I know this place hasn't done me any favors, honestly. That's entirely my own fault, but there it is. I shoot for challenges, and that's about all I do right now, except administer of course, which takes a lot of time. But that's neither here nor there. I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing, I think, and start working from my own, instead of external, motivations. I used to have those once. I liked them :-) |
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07/27/2015 02:20:29 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing, I think, and start working from my own, instead of external, motivations. I used to have those once. I liked them :-) |
I believe Robert that this is the most important thing for all of us here, if we can find our own creativity without being influenced by the judgmental nature of the scores here at DPC, not only will we our photography progress but it would be a breath of fresh air to the site in general. I mean you know that there is something wrong with you and the site when like me you walk into a rather prestigious photo exhibition with some of the most respected photographers from Europe and you start saying to yourself "that would get a 4.5, that might reach a 5" and then it hits you nothing in the exhibition could ever get a top ten at DPC because they ask to many questions, they touch too many emotions, they are too original. |
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07/27/2015 05:40:25 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
"Try creativity instead. Try an honestly expressed response to your influences and the present moment. Photography is a beautiful analogy for all the arts, because it is a capture of the moment of creation. |
Don, Your comment applies both to the creation of photographic art and to the creative appreciation of photographic art. Interesting to see discussion focus mainly on one aspect or the other, but rarely on both.
The photographer as an artist may do well to notice, imagine, and capture images based on an honest response to the influences of the present moment, sometimes aided by creative conceptualization and planning. Creative capture and processing produces an image. This can be done with various levels of skill, various degrees of connection to elements of compositional design, various references to other art or social situations or concepts of all sorts. But producing the artwork represents only part of the process of art.
Another part, frequently ignored, is the creative process inherent in the perception, appreciation, evaluation, and emotional response on the part of those who see the art. Their honest response to the image will be influenced by their entire history of experiences, perceptions, prejudices, feelings, attitudes, knowledge, and what is going on at the moment.
When we let our images loose into the world, they are at the mercy of the people who see them. We are not in control. An image intended as a documentary exposition of mushrooms growing on a dead log in forest light may be received by the viewer (who may have lost a loved one recently) as a conceptual piece about beauty in the cycle of life. It gets messy and subjective and wonderful, just like life itself.
We can celebrate the best creativity in production of photographic art, and we can aim at doing our best to improve. At the same time, we can celebrate the diverse creativity in responding to photographic art, and we can aim to improve our capacity and capabilities to appreciate broadly and communicate thoughtfully.
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07/27/2015 05:47:03 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by Ja-9:
I have a suggestion....
why doesn't everyone go out and "VOTE" on the closing challenge which BTW has a mere 65+ votes with 2 hours & 38 minutes to go... |
because they would rather talk circles of bile for eternity |
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07/27/2015 06:40:56 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing, I think, and start working from my own, instead of external, motivations. I used to have those once. I liked them :-) |
I believe Robert that this is the most important thing for all of us here, if we can find our own creativity without being influenced by the judgmental nature of the scores here at DPC, not only will we our photography progress but it would be a breath of fresh air to the site in general. I mean you know that there is something wrong with you and the site when like me you walk into a rather prestigious photo exhibition with some of the most respected photographers from Europe and you start saying to yourself "that would get a 4.5, that might reach a 5" and then it hits you nothing in the exhibition could ever get a top ten at DPC because they ask to many questions, they touch too many emotions, they are too original. |
This is a good point however Ive never walked into an art gallery or museum looked at a picture and said. "yep. Summertime meal" "I see it. This is entirely silhouette at night"...
Dpc isn't an art competition. The voters expect to see stock images.
Message edited by author 2015-07-27 06:48:54. |
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07/27/2015 07:00:19 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by Mike:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing, I think, and start working from my own, instead of external, motivations. I used to have those once. I liked them :-) |
I believe Robert that this is the most important thing for all of us here, if we can find our own creativity without being influenced by the judgmental nature of the scores here at DPC, not only will we our photography progress but it would be a breath of fresh air to the site in general. I mean you know that there is something wrong with you and the site when like me you walk into a rather prestigious photo exhibition with some of the most respected photographers from Europe and you start saying to yourself "that would get a 4.5, that might reach a 5" and then it hits you nothing in the exhibition could ever get a top ten at DPC because they ask to many questions, they touch too many emotions, they are too original. |
This is a good point however Ive never walked into an art gallery or museum looked at a picture and said. "yep. Summertime meal" "I see it. This is entirely silhouette at night"...
Dpc isn't an art competition. The voters expect to see stock images. |
You could be right and that's pretty sad. |
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07/27/2015 08:33:12 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I need to re-evaluate what I'm doing, I think, and start working from my own, instead of external, motivations. I used to have those once. I liked them :-) |
I believe Robert that this is the most important thing for all of us here, if we can find our own creativity without being influenced by the judgmental nature of the scores here at DPC, not only will we our photography progress but it would be a breath of fresh air to the site in general. I mean you know that there is something wrong with you and the site when like me you walk into a rather prestigious photo exhibition with some of the most respected photographers from Europe and you start saying to yourself "that would get a 4.5, that might reach a 5" and then it hits you nothing in the exhibition could ever get a top ten at DPC because they ask to many questions, they touch too many emotions, they are too original. |
I use this rationale all the time. DPC is DPC, and DPC winning photos are just that: DPC winning photos.
Seeing what is shared and adored elsewhere wouldn't crack the top 50% here most of the time, and that helps me know that I'm not wasting my time and money on the gear that I have, because "winning at DPC" doesn't mean "winning at photography".
I know my inspiration for photography - it's my memory. My grandparents had bad memory, even alzheimers; my father has really bad memory, and I (even as young at when I was 22/23) started forgetting things, little at first, but it was enough - I decided that when something important was going to be happening, I wanted to be able to have Good pictures of it. That, to me, is the beauty and the gift of photography - the ability to perfectly capture a memory, physically, so that I don't have to rely on my own faulty human capacity for memory.
What I put up on the site is generally not what I care about (sometimes, but not usually), and my scores reflect that; but at the same time, when I do put up when I care about, it isn't "DPC winning" stuff, so it gets scored accordingly.
During the DPL, I cared about making a showing for my team's sake, to show that I'm capable of producing "DPC worthy" images, and my average standing on challenges entered was the 2nd highest overall gain (from those who did not start at 0) as of last week - only NeeNee was higher than me by a few %. It's one thing to say "well, you had team members helping you", and it's true, they offered input and advice; but they couldn't (and didn't) click any buttons (camera or mouse) during any stage of the capture/edit process. Great advice, in the wrong hands, is useless; great advice in good hands is effective; great advice in expert hands is magical.
I love this site, truly; there are some fantastic minds from all viewpoints, and none of them are wrong, but not a single one has it all right. People like me will come here and either be scared away or find a balance that works for them. Perhaps they will only enter Expert editing challenges because they love digital manipulation of images and feel that the others are too constrained; perhaps they will only enter basic because that is "Pure" - but they at least have the option to do as they please in a given topic and editing set.
With that last bit in mind, I think it was  Mike who suggested in another thread a split challenge, like we've done with Summer/Winter, except it's the same topic but run in each editing set concurrently and you pick your style to use and each will be scored differently. I'm going to head to the suggestion thread now to officially create that if it's not there, it would be an interesting experiment to run, similar to the way it was interesting to see what happened when entries were not anonymous. |
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