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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Invite to SC & Others, In-camera menus & Minimal
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07/13/2015 07:28:30 PM · #1
I have a question regarding the Minimal Editing Rules and what menus we can use with our camera.

The rules state (below) "... after the image is captured ...". If I make a menu choice in-camera, whether it be to shoot in Sepia tone, shoot with selective desat, or some Art type selection - these are all choices made before the photo is captured. On many cameras that is the case - no edits or post-processing choices made whatsoever AFTER the capture.

Minimal Editing Rules
"Restrictions on post-processing apply to ALL edits performed after the image is captured, whether on a computer or with in-camera tools."

Now there ARE some cameras that allow post-processing AFTER image capture, where you can crop, etc... I've include a screen shot of the Nikon D3200 which offers that. IMO, this is what the essence of the rule stating no post edits after capture is intended for.

If pre-shot choices are not allowed, where do you draw the line? I think we should be able to use our cameras as the tool they are and make selections in-camera as designed.

Thoughts please?

Here are some samples of Menu choices in-camera (I didn't look up all brands).

The type NOT allowed IMO should be this (where it is definitely POST applied in-camera)
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1160306.jpg

Following SHOULD be allowed.
Nikon
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1160307.jpg

Olympus
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1160308.jpg

Sony
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1160314.jpg
07/13/2015 07:42:52 PM · #2
so post processing in camera should be allowed and on a computer shouldn't?
07/13/2015 07:45:35 PM · #3
Originally posted by Mike:

so post processing in camera should be allowed and on a computer shouldn't?

No - you should be able to make MENU choices in-camera. Post processing (as in the D3200 example below) should not be allowed. Thank you for your interest.
07/13/2015 07:47:21 PM · #4
oh so post processing by hoping for the best.
07/13/2015 07:54:26 PM · #5
Originally posted by Mike:

oh so post processing by hoping for the best.

No - no "hope" involved. You need to know the capability of your camera.
07/13/2015 07:59:01 PM · #6
and what about those who don't have cameras that are capable?
07/13/2015 07:59:02 PM · #7
Those are EFFECTS that simulate popular forms of post-processing. They are not in the spirit of a minimal editing challenge, which is to REMOVE that sort of stuff as completely as possible. Think of Minimal Editing as the digital equivalent of shooting slides in the old days; you choose your film (in digital, that's presetting ISO, saturation, contrast, white balance, basic stuff like that) and you shoot-and-submit your pictures.

That's what Minimal Editing is FOR! Why are you trying to find a workaround? I'm sorry if I'm seeming cranky, but it seems like we're seeing a lot of rules nitpicking at the moment and I'm getting weary...

Message edited by author 2015-07-13 20:02:07.
07/13/2015 08:05:36 PM · #8
The Olympus Art Filter was previously used and entry qualified in minimal. Has something changed?

edit to correct spelling

Message edited by author 2015-07-13 20:06:08.
07/13/2015 08:09:03 PM · #9
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Those are EFFECTS that simulate popular forms of post-processing. They are not in the spirit of a minimal editing challenge, which is to REMOVE that sort of stuff as completely as possible. Think of Minimal Editing as the digital equivalent of shooting slides in the old days; you choose your film (in digital, that's presetting ISO, saturation, contrast, white balance, basic stuff like that) and you shoot-and-submit your pictures.

That's what Minimal Editing is FOR! Why are you trying to find a workaround? I'm sorry if I'm seeming cranky, but it seems like we're seeing a lot of rules nitpicking at the moment and I'm getting weary...

No - not trying to find a workaround. What about choosing B&W? What about increasing contrast, saturation, and sharpness in-camera.

I'm sorry if you feel this is "nitpicking" ... I've not seen a good conversation on this subject here in the forums and I feel like there is a lot of grey area, especially given the options available in straight-forward menu options.

I can understand not allowing post choices (as pointed out with the D3200 sample below) - but I can't select Sepia from the menu options?
07/13/2015 08:24:54 PM · #10
Originally posted by glad2badad:

but I can't select Sepia from the menu options?


thats a good thing.
07/13/2015 08:39:16 PM · #11
If you're using a phone-camera as a camera then the same rules apply -- if it's a setting you make before pressing the shutter (basic settings as Bear listed) then it should be OK, any editing after the capture has to follow the same rules as if you were on a computer.

For Minimal challenges you can resize once, sharpen ("default" sharpen command only) one or more times, rotate in 90° increments, SaveAs JPEG.

Anything else is not OK.

You need to determine for your particular device whether an effect is applied pre- or post-shutter actuation. Effects involving anything other than color, tone, contrast, and sharpness are likely to be illegal. Pre-setting your camera to (for example) B&W or Sepia should be OK.
07/13/2015 08:41:29 PM · #12
It seems to me that the intent of minimal is to exclude POST processing. This should include any opportunity to view a captured image (in camera, or out) that is followed by a choice to change what you are seeing and add processing to the same image.

I realize that the workaround to that is simply to keep taking shots with a different creative filters until you get to something you like.

BUT (and it's BIG BUT).. the technical bottom (pun intended) line for verification purposes will have to be whether the post-processed file will show up with EXIF that indicates a different time for capture and modification. If the time's the same, it's impossible to prove if it was really POST processed and I'd think SC would have no choice but verify it.
07/13/2015 09:23:26 PM · #13
Originally posted by GeneralE:

... -- if it's a setting you make before pressing the shutter (basic settings as Bear listed) then it should be OK, any editing after the capture has to follow the same rules as if you were on a computer. ...

You need to determine for your particular device whether an effect is applied pre- or post-shutter actuation. Effects involving anything other than color, tone, contrast, and sharpness are likely to be illegal. Pre-setting your camera to (for example) B&W or Sepia should be OK.


It sounds like if I make a menu choice then it should be legal as any "effects" are applied at the time of capture then. No editing done "after the capture" whatsoever in this case.

That's why I think the rules were geared toward eliminating post choices that can be applied, by human interaction specifically in-camera, AFTER the photo has been taken.

<I added bold underlined emphasis to the quote above>
07/13/2015 09:25:49 PM · #14
Originally posted by wbanning:

...
BUT (and it's BIG BUT).. the technical bottom (pun intended) line for verification purposes will have to be whether the post-processed file will show up with EXIF that indicates a different time for capture and modification. If the time's the same, it's impossible to prove if it was really POST processed and I'd think SC would have no choice but verify it.

Good point - hadn't thought about that view. <bold underlined emphasis added to the quote>
07/13/2015 10:08:19 PM · #15
Per Minimal rules though

Restrictions on post-processing apply to ALL edits performed after the image is captured, whether on a computer or with in-camera tools.


HOWEVER

You may:

use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry, with the exception of combining multiple captures in-camera.


So if the features are applied at the time of capture, they are legal? Although this concept may violate the spirit of Minimal rules, it appears it doesn't violate the letter of them. My phone offers an HDR "Feature" to create an HDR like image that occurs in live preview and before the capture. I also have a selective DeSat feature... I can set this "feature" before the shutter is pressed... Seems to be that'd be legal per this rule. Along with all of the other crazy "features" that the iPhone has.

I don't like the idea and agree that it completely violates the whole concept of Minimal editing... Especially when I'm using like 10 year technology in my D200... I'm lucky to get a shot without noise, let alone with features like "Live Preview" LoL

Maybe I'm missing something in the rules that goes against this?

Message edited by author 2015-07-13 22:10:16.
07/13/2015 10:10:05 PM · #16
Effects you choose before the capture may be applied by the software in the camera AFTER the capture. What do you see in the display before the capture? The effect? Or before-the-effect?

Minimal is such a pain.
07/13/2015 10:12:31 PM · #17
Originally posted by pixelpig:

Effects you choose before the capture may be applied by the software in the camera AFTER the capture. What do you see in the display before the capture? The effect? Or before-the-effect?

Minimal is such a pain.


In the iPhone, it will give you a live preview of photo with the "feature" applied... and as someone pointed out before, the EXIF data will reveal that the effect was applied at the time of the shot, not after...
07/13/2015 11:41:23 PM · #18
Bear in mind, everyone, that IF it's determined that all these artistic effects pass muster technically, then we've just invalidated the entire Minimal Ruleset and it will be defunct.

The point of the ruleset is to shoot "straight", minimally processed images. If we can't exclude "artistic effects", there's no point to the ruleset.
07/14/2015 06:17:30 AM · #19
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Bear in mind, everyone, that IF it's determined that all these artistic effects pass muster technically, then we've just invalidated the entire Minimal Ruleset and it will be defunct.

The point of the ruleset is to shoot "straight", minimally processed images. If we can't exclude "artistic effects", there's no point to the ruleset.

Too many in-camera choices today - you may be right, time for Minimal rules to go away perhaps. ??? However, I've always thought one of the most challenging aspects of Minimal was not being able to crop or straighten. That, IMO, is the challenge of getting it right in-camera ...
07/14/2015 06:45:04 AM · #20
I want to clarify something based on the OP. Nikon does provide a retouch menu, but they also provide things like Active D-Lighting and High ISO NR that are set first and applied during the shot, and I would expect that those are perfectly legal, just like choosing the camera profile for certain levels of color saturation and lightness.
07/14/2015 07:11:58 AM · #21
So square crop on my lumix is illegal?
07/14/2015 07:41:31 AM · #22
Originally posted by pixelpig:



Minimal is such a pain.


Hit nail head on the.
07/14/2015 10:07:11 AM · #23
Originally posted by Sirashley:

Originally posted by pixelpig:

Effects you choose before the capture may be applied by the software in the camera AFTER the capture. What do you see in the display before the capture? The effect? Or before-the-effect?

Minimal is such a pain.


In the iPhone, it will give you a live preview of photo with the "feature" applied... and as someone pointed out before, the EXIF data will reveal that the effect was applied at the time of the shot, not after...


My iPhone camera effects menu gives me 9 choices. All the fun is in the apps.

07/14/2015 10:07:12 AM · #24
.

Message edited by author 2015-07-14 10:07:43.
07/14/2015 10:17:31 AM · #25
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Bear in mind, everyone, that IF it's determined that all these artistic effects pass muster technically, then we've just invalidated the entire Minimal Ruleset and it will be defunct.

The point of the ruleset is to shoot "straight", minimally processed images. If we can't exclude "artistic effects", there's no point to the ruleset.


Whoa, wait a minute! If that's the point of the Minimal ruleset, maybe it would work better as a yellow flag. One ruleset, the one used for Advanced, seems to satisfy most people, most of the time. What if Minimal & Expert were yellow flags? Right? Fewer rules to understand. More fun to be had by all. It would encourage people to read the details of the challenge description just to see what the yellow flag allowed, or disallowed. That would be a good thing.

Message edited by author 2015-07-14 10:20:01.
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