DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Photography Discussion >> Scoring on DPC and the value of the naive eye.
Pages:  
Showing posts 1 - 25 of 49, (reverse)
AuthorThread
06/05/2015 03:58:09 PM · #1
It is only normal to be delighted with the new. That which is fresh holds a special appeal. The question I have is, “When you have seen something before, is it less beautiful?”

Having been inactive on this site for a few months, I read a line where ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' SEG wrote (referencing the Landscape challenge and the then current Bridges challenge) "All I know is that if I shoot 2 different bridges or 1 bridge in 2 different ways I've got an entry for 2 current challenges. Half the work twice the challenges! That's going to be my new motto." Then Deja Vu came up and I thought of a little experiment.

I went out one evening and I shot from a beautiful spot. This spot that has been photographed many, many times before and I chose to submit some of those images to several challenges with different frames and radically different edits, By happenstance those challenges all happened to fit this single scene well. I felt that using the same images from the same shoot was a bit of a cheat, but I could not think why I felt so.

The subject suited the various challenges well. Had they been intended to be judged by different juries, I would have had no qualms, but I knew that by submitting them to the same group of judges, each image would be judged increasingly less worthy as the repetition became clear. I felt so myself. But why?

Art is meant to be judged on its own merits. A single creation is either worthy of admiration, or it is not. We strive to admire that which is worthy, with a naive eye. John Ruskin called it the "Innocent Eye" . He imagined a blind man suddenly give sight and shown an image. Is it beautiful to him? Then it is beautiful.

Gombrick thought Ruskin was full of it. He held ‘reading an image, like the reception of any other message, is dependent on prior knowledge of possibilities; we can only recognize what we know.’ You can't judge art without having seen art before. You can't know what is good art unless you know everything that lead up to that piece of art. You like something, or not, because of what you have seen before

I hold that those are the two camps. Pick a side.

Back to my little experiment. I intended to submit several exposures from the same tripod placement to different challenges. The sun set, the camera settings changed. Then they were edited. Two were, I thought, good edits of different styles, two were fairly silly overdone edits. All suited their challenges to some degree. As the pattern of repetition became clear, as judges realized they had seen the same, or a very similar image in previous challenges they tended to judge the image more harshly, even though they were, at least by my intent, increasingly superior images and better suited to their challenges.

Not unexpectedly, once the first image finished voting and landed on the front page, the other images, which were intended to be much better versions of the first, fell sharply. By the time the second image hit the front page, the last image fell half a point before voting closed. They all scored much better than I would have expected and I know I risk looking a fool wondering about a drop in the scoring of an image that finished above some lovely images, but it is the way the scoring went that puzzles me. Partially because I would have voted much the way.

Why do we vote lower on an image that is similar to something we have seen before? If we liked an image the first time, why do we feel it cheapens it to see something like it again?

Message edited by author 2015-06-05 16:00:33.
06/05/2015 04:30:06 PM · #2
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

...

Why do we vote lower on an image that is similar to something we have seen before? If we liked an image the first time, why do we feel it cheapens it to see something like it again?


Because it's not so unique anymore as the first one?
06/05/2015 04:34:31 PM · #3
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

... Why do we vote lower on an image that is similar to something we have seen before? If we liked an image the first time, why do we feel it cheapens it to see something like it again?

You partially answered your own question with this.

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

... I felt that using the same images from the same shoot was a bit of a cheat, but I could not think why I felt so.

Perhaps that's the way others' feel sometimes too?

<edit - typo>

Message edited by author 2015-06-05 16:34:59.
06/05/2015 04:36:35 PM · #4
Familiarity breeds contempt.

Or something along those lines. Honestly, I absolutely hate seeing outtakes from one challenge entered in another, even Free Studies -- they rub me the wrong way, as if its somehow cheating, even though of course its not. I voted your first image highly, the second one got a 5 because I'd seen it before, and the third one I just ignored, not even wanting to cast a vote. But I didn't stop to ask myself the question you posed: Why?

I don't have a good answer, but I think its something we see all the time around here, but from a longer view. An example: When HDR (or Alien Skin, or long-exposures-of-moving-water or what not) first started appearing, we were amazed and voted it highly and wondered how we could do something like that. Then we started seeing a lot more of the same, realized its not that hard, and we were less impressed, and our votes changed accordingly. And then, inevitably, the backlash started. "Too much structure," we complained. "4." But that doesn't mean the last HDR you saw is way worse than the first ... its probably a lot better. But its not unique, and becomes less impressive, and less scoreworthy as a result.

Photography, and art in general, has always been about finding new ways of seeing. But once a subject, or a technique, becomes overexposed it loses its luster. So there you have it: Been There. Done That. Show Me Something New.
06/05/2015 05:16:58 PM · #5
I think it is called cliche (with one of those furrin accents on the e). And I think it happens faster and faster in the digital/e world. At least so far as technique or superficial formula are concerned.

I think this is definitely endemic in photography. I am leary of so much of my own work because it is often a sleight of hand; techniques can become gimmicky. HDR, long exposure water, double exposure, layers, blur and blah.

It doesn't have to, and that is where the art comes in. It has to be more than a good photo. Always.
06/05/2015 05:31:34 PM · #6
Originality is part of what I like in an image.

If I've seen the same thing many times, it's not as exciting as it was the first time.

If you'd changed the location by a bit... I think it would have been "fresher".

I didn't vote.
06/05/2015 05:40:37 PM · #7
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Or something along those lines. Honestly, I absolutely hate seeing outtakes from one challenge entered in another, even Free Studies -- they rub me the wrong way, as if its somehow cheating, even though of course its not


So how do you feel about Edward Weston's nudes? (these are nudes so NSFW warning folks) He shot the same models who had pretty similar builds, with the same close in framing and the same dramatic darkroom technique in an effort to study form. Many of his iconic images came from the same few sittings.Weston said his goal was to take the commonplace "completely outside subject matter". To photograph the ordinary in a way which "takes one beyond the world we know in the conscious mind".

Does the desire for the new make each successive frame less worthy as his explorations are repeated using the same subject?

Message edited by author 2015-06-05 17:41:30.
06/05/2015 05:47:20 PM · #8
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

So how do you feel about Edward Weston's nudes? ... Does the desire for the new make each successive frame less worthy as his explorations are repeated using the same subject?


Not at all. I love a good nude. And a good pepper as well. :-) The difference there from your experiment, imo, is that those are all different photographs and show an evolution of artistic vision, whether it be in finding a new pose or angle to explore his subject or if viewed as a journey to keep searching for the image that he knows is there but has not yet been able to capture. There is a sense of newness and exploration in his portfolio that is (and I mean no disrespect here) fundamentally different from plopping a tripod down in a beautiful spot and entering the same basic composition in three different contests with a modestly different approach in the (digital) darkroom.

(And, just to avoid any misunderstanding, I really do like that view of the bridge, and actually spent a fair bit of time this morning to figure out how you got down to that spot on the island!)
06/05/2015 05:51:11 PM · #9
Originally posted by EstimatedEyes:



Honestly, I absolutely hate seeing outtakes from one challenge entered in another, even Free Studies -- they rub me the wrong way, as if its somehow cheating, even though of course its not.


I get a little frustrated when I can tell a Free Study entry was taken while shooting for another challenge. I try not to let that thought influence my vote, because there is really no reason why two (or more) photos worthy of entry can't come out of a single shoot.
06/05/2015 05:53:28 PM · #10
Interesting question. However, in this particular situation, I believe it's due to it being the same audience seeing the same images.

We may travel to France, and go to the Louvre and see the Mona Lisa, and be amazed. And yet the guy who sweeps the floor every night probably no longer even looks up.
06/05/2015 06:12:40 PM · #11
miss posted.


Message edited by author 2015-06-05 18:13:49.
06/05/2015 06:26:57 PM · #12
Well, I gave you the same vote on the two currently posted, but I have to wonder if the results of the existing Deja Vu entry you copied may have influenced peoples votes on your own entry.

The way people vote also differs. Personally, I try to not let the challenge topic influence my vote. If I gave you a 7 in Bridges, I would give you a 7 in a Free Study for the same image (assuming it fit the topic of Bridges). I know everyone doesn't vote this way, I have received at least one comment to that effect in a Free Study entry. Some certainly vote on a curve, where the score on one entry is influenced by the others, I try not to do this myself.
06/05/2015 06:33:25 PM · #13
Originally posted by tanguera:

Interesting question. However, in this particular situation, I believe it's due to it being the same audience seeing the same images.

We may travel to France, and go to the Louvre and see the Mona Lisa, and be amazed. And yet the guy who sweeps the floor every night probably no longer even looks up.
z

Yes! This is exactly it, Johanna.

Well said.
06/05/2015 07:07:33 PM · #14
Originally posted by tanguera:

Interesting question. However, in this particular situation, I believe it's due to it being the same audience seeing the same images.


Is this why people have replaced oil paintings or poster prints which once were hung in the most prominent places their homes with flat screen TVs the size of heroic landscape oils? I have had some of the same paintings, prints and drawings hung on the wall of my house for years, but I guess I spend more time watching television that looking at the stuff on the walls. Television certainly brings me new images, but I would be hard pressed to say many of them are better images than those old things I have framed.
06/05/2015 07:19:08 PM · #15
Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times. I'm with Gombrick. I only voted the Deja Vu challenge, of the three you entered.
06/05/2015 07:36:34 PM · #16
While the photographer may have observed the score dropping due to the ability to see the continuing score, I find it interesting that the overall image averages increased over successive images with the last image having the highest overall average. So I am not sure that many really punished with low votes on an image that ended up in first place even though voters had seen similar scenes in preceding challenges.

That said, I have noticed I am not as wowed by silky smooth waterfall scenes as I was two years ago when I first got here. (Although should I ever actually manage to capture one of those myself, it will no doubt be a phenomenal success in my mind.)

Message edited by author 2015-06-05 19:42:49.
06/05/2015 07:44:34 PM · #17
Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times. I'm with Gombrick. I only voted the Deja Vu challenge, of the three you entered.


Four... Free Study is coming up. :D

I don't think I've ever seen anyone have a 1st, a 3rd, and a 4th on the front page with differing images... much less with the "same" image with differing processing.

I think the score differs just like the high score fluctuates in each challenge.

It's a fascinating experiment that I have enjoyed watching.

06/05/2015 07:46:09 PM · #18
Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times.


No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one?
06/05/2015 07:51:49 PM · #19
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times.


No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one?


Buccleuch - 5
Landsdowne - 7
06/05/2015 07:59:30 PM · #20
Originally posted by LN13:



Buccleuch - 5
Landsdowne - 7


I agree.
06/05/2015 08:00:22 PM · #21
Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times.


No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one?


Buccleuch - 5
Landsdowne - 7


Does anybody in this DPC outfit have a truly clean screen?
I just spit out my 5pm sherry in a fit of laughter over that one.
06/05/2015 08:04:38 PM · #22
Originally posted by sfalice:

Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times.


No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one?


Buccleuch - 5
Landsdowne - 7


Does anybody in this DPC outfit have a truly clean screen?
I just spit out my 5pm sherry in a fit of laughter over that one.


NOW look what you've done, Brennan! You've wasted Alice's good sherry.

:D
06/05/2015 08:11:16 PM · #23
Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Da Vinci didn't paint the Mona Lisa three times.


No but he did paint The Buccleuch Madonna and the Landsdowne Madonna which were pretty much the same painting. If you knew which one was created first, would that be the better one?


Buccleuch - 5
Landsdowne - 7


Buccleuch (Minimal Editing)
Landsdowne (Expert Editing - use of composites to change the background)
06/05/2015 08:17:30 PM · #24
Originally posted by Lydia:

NOW look what you've done, Brennan! You've wasted Alice's good sherry.

:D


It wasn't me, I was trying for the whole erudite thing; Larry was the one who brought the funny.
06/05/2015 08:23:58 PM · #25
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Originally posted by Lydia:

NOW look what you've done, Brennan! You've wasted Alice's good sherry.

:D


It wasn't me, I was trying for the whole erudite thing; Larry was the one who brought the funny.


You started it. :D
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 12/08/2019 10:02:26 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2019 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Proudly hosted by Sargasso Networks. Current Server Time: 12/08/2019 10:02:26 PM EST.