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02/06/2015 01:09:54 PM · #76
Originally posted by Mike:

... i'm fine with religion, its that damned money that keeps messing things up.


Originally posted by The Bible, Timothy 6:10:


For the love of money is the root of all evil ...

One of the Scriptures' more perceptive and salient points ... note that it's "love of" and not money itself which is the problem -- this point is often omitted or distorted ....
02/06/2015 01:11:39 PM · #77
Originally posted by nygold:

Cory lots of people say "Oh my God" and things of that nature and I get it and just chalk it up to a phrase nothing more nothing less. BUT I think the reason why this particular instance stuck in my head is because the guy went in to prayer mode on me. Don't forget I was in the zone, my brain was taking in every little detail. Maybe that's why it's so vivid.

I'm trying to figure out when his brain thought "This is it" what mode is that in the brain?
Maybe some people don't have that mode? Maybe others have a heightened mode that's triggered easily?
To me there are just too many accounts of (I don't know why to call it) lets say religious like emotions for it to not have some kind of scientific basis.
Maybe it's just never been studied before.


I call it fear of the unknown. No one knows what happens when you die because dead people can't talk. If you were raised with any type of religion ever, even if you no longer believe, you're sure going to get one last plea in "just in case" you were wrong. It's a hard thing to accept that once you're dead, that's it. I've struggled with that myself. I still believe it death is the absolute end. But I wouldn't be upset if I was wrong. The thing I don't have any trouble believing is that if I am wrong, I'll somehow be punished for not "knowing" that beforehand.
02/06/2015 01:12:17 PM · #78
Maybe he knew instinctively that the only known cure for fear is faith, we always have faith in something, usualy it's our own beliefs, maybe when it comes to the crunch and we see that our mind is of no help we will grasp at anything.
02/06/2015 01:22:47 PM · #79
Originally posted by nygold:

Cory lots of people say "Oh my God" and things of that nature and I get it and just chalk it up to a phrase nothing more nothing less.

31.gif Isaac's mom told me that one day he hit his hand with a hamer or something and blurted out "Oh your god, that hurt!"

As for your sailor in peril, to me praying is indistinguishable fro saying "I hope I make it out of this ... I hope I make it out of this ... " over and over -- it is an acknowledgement that your fate is even less within your control than usual.

I've noticed over the years that a lot of football teams pray before before a game, and yet ties are quite rare. It seems if God were were to play favorites Notre Dame should go undefeated every year...
02/06/2015 01:35:44 PM · #80
Originally posted by GeneralE:



I've noticed over the years that a lot of football teams pray before before a game, and yet ties are quite rare. It seems if God were were to play favorites Notre Dame should go undefeated every year...


you are assuming that god is irish catholic.

02/06/2015 01:41:50 PM · #81
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by nygold:

Cory lots of people say "Oh my God" and things of that nature and I get it and just chalk it up to a phrase nothing more nothing less.


As for your sailor in peril, to me praying is indistinguishable fro saying "I hope I make it out of this ... I hope I make it out of this ... " over and over -- it is an acknowledgement that your fate is even less within your control than usual.


That was my point, it has nothing to do with the phrase you're repeating.
It has to do with the fact that you're doing it.
A) What part of the brain triggers this?
B) What or who are you trying to contact?
02/06/2015 01:41:52 PM · #82
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by GeneralE:



I've noticed over the years that a lot of football teams pray before before a game, and yet ties are quite rare. It seems if God were were to play favorites Notre Dame should go undefeated every year...


you are assuming that god is irish catholic.

Well, according to the the Catholics, the Protestants, the Shia, the Sunnis, and the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform Jews there is only one god, so if there is a god at all that's the one they're addressing, or else their basic premise is incorrect.
02/06/2015 01:42:40 PM · #83
Originally posted by nygold:


To me there are just too many accounts of (I don't know why to call it) lets say religious like emotions for it to not have some kind of scientific basis.
Maybe it's just never been studied before.


Actually, a very extensive study was done. They put some people in Africa with no religion or culture of any kind. These people spread all over the globe... and almost everywhere they went, they created religions. We're talking well over 99% confirmation here.
02/06/2015 01:43:56 PM · #84
Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by nygold:

Cory lots of people say "Oh my God" and things of that nature and I get it and just chalk it up to a phrase nothing more nothing less.


As for your sailor in peril, to me praying is indistinguishable fro saying "I hope I make it out of this ... I hope I make it out of this ... " over and over -- it is an acknowledgement that your fate is even less within your control than usual.


That was my point, it has nothing to do with the phrase you're repeating.
It has to do with the fact that you're doing it.
A) What part of the brain triggers this?
B) What or who are you trying to contact?

A) Whatever it is in every life form (with or without brains) which strives to stay alive.
B) "Hoping" is not the sae as "trying to contact" anyone or anything.
02/06/2015 02:00:51 PM · #85
Originally posted by nygold:



I was on a boat with a few other men and we ended up getting caught in a VERY nasty squall, 80mph winds, HEAVy rain, hail, lightning the whole 9. One of the guys on board was a hard nose athiest to the bones (Cory is an altar boy compared to this guy). Anyhow I actually heard this guy pray out loud.
This isn't this first time I've encountered such behavior I'm guilty my self of having done it a few times.


that's nothing, non-religious women scream god's name all the time, lots of it is caught on video too.

i'll be here all week folks, make sure to tip your waitress.
02/06/2015 02:03:43 PM · #86
Originally posted by GeneralE:



A) Whatever it is in every life form (with or without brains) which strives to stay alive.
B) "Hoping" is not the sae as "trying to contact" anyone or anything. [/quote]

That's just it. How did something so spiritual get so embedded in our instictual part of the brain? <---For the record this doesn't have to have a religious answer.

If you think people that look death in the face and start pleading for help out of the sky are just talking to themselves. That's fair enough, I don't buy it but I'll accept that answer.

02/06/2015 02:05:13 PM · #87
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by nygold:



I was on a boat with a few other men and we ended up getting caught in a VERY nasty squall, 80mph winds, HEAVy rain, hail, lightning the whole 9. One of the guys on board was a hard nose athiest to the bones (Cory is an altar boy compared to this guy). Anyhow I actually heard this guy pray out loud.
This isn't this first time I've encountered such behavior I'm guilty my self of having done it a few times.


that's nothing, non-religious women scream god's name all the time, lots of it is caught on video too.

i'll be here all week folks, make sure to tip your waitress.


You forgot to mention the 2 drink minimum.
02/06/2015 02:16:30 PM · #88
Originally posted by Cory:

Obviously I wasn't there, but I do know that people have often commented or objected to my use of the word god.

I was driving a car with an extremely devout Baptist on a steep, winding stretch of the Blue Ridge Parkway back in the 1980s when the brakes failed. It was certainly life threatening, but she only shouted, "Shit!" and uttered no prayer to God. Does that mean some part of her brain was calling out to feces or that she didn't really believe?
02/06/2015 02:19:37 PM · #89
Originally posted by nygold:

something so spiritual get so embedded in our instictual part of the brain? <---For the record this doesn't have to have a religious answer.

I don't see why you attribute the "instinct" to survive to "spirituality" or religion. Ants, slugs, hyenas, all have the instinct to try and survive as individuals without the benefit of organized religion. The only difference is that our powers of observation and historical comunication have given us foreknowledge of our ultimate mortality. Given that we've noticed that being alive can often be pleasurable, while being dead never is, makes us want to live forever even if we can't, and so make up some fantasy where we do ...

Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1131769.jpg
02/06/2015 03:08:55 PM · #90
Originally posted by Cory:


Probably a hold-over from childhood - we learn very early to seek help from a 'higher power' when we are young. If you cannot do it, appeal to mother or father. Especially when you're scared or hurt.

When we become adults, that desire for help doesn't just disappear - but that's no reason to accept things without reason.


You can see a hint of the answer to your original questions in your own statement here Cory. You are asserting a statement that amounts to a "just so story". It has nothing "scientific" supporting it. No rigorous experiment has tested this (I doubt any experiment at all has been done and even if it has I doubt you were a priori aware of it) and yet you accept it as a likely explanation because it makes sense with your worldview. You do not demand the same level of scrutiny of your own statements that you demand when confronting others with their own statements about the world. So, if you are able to have the personal insight, you can see that you, yourself do not live up to your own standard of only operating on statements backed up by "science". At best this should help you see that science is not the only avenue to potential statements of truth, at worst it could show you we are all guilty of building our worldview upon shaky foundations of faith. You. Me. Everybody.
02/06/2015 03:11:23 PM · #91
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by nygold:

something so spiritual get so embedded in our instictual part of the brain? <---For the record this doesn't have to have a religious answer.

I don't see why you attribute the "instinct" to survive to "spirituality" or religion. Ants, slugs, hyenas, all have the instinct to try and survive as individuals without the benefit of organized religion. The only difference is that our powers of observation and historical comunication have given us foreknowledge of our ultimate mortality. Given that we've noticed that being alive can often be pleasurable, while being dead never is, makes us want to live forever even if we can't, and so make up some fantasy where we do ...
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1131769.jpg


Last time.
The heightened senses during these times I understand thats an instinct that allows your brain to process a tremendous amount of information for a short duration.
It's what makes people grasp for a higher power during these times?
Leave religion out of it. There must be an explanation for it.

Yes all things have a "survival" instict but only humans switch into spiritual mode.
02/06/2015 03:31:02 PM · #92
Originally posted by nygold:


Last time.
The heightened senses during these times I understand thats an instinct that allows your brain to process a tremendous amount of information for a short duration.
It's what makes people grasp for a higher power during these times?
Leave religion out of it. There must be an explanation for it.

Yes all things have a "survival" instict but only humans switch into spiritual mode.


I think it's an interesting question. An answer, which is also rational (alongside Cory's answer), but may or may not resonate with your own worldview, is that we have placed within us an understanding that something larger than ourselves exists. At times of high stress and fear all other things are put aside and this message is laid bare. I think this type of information would be called "revelational". It is neither foolproof nor locktight information, but yet it exists. Most of the world, in fact, acknowledges it and only a small minority lend it no credence.
02/06/2015 03:53:59 PM · #93
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Cory:


Probably a hold-over from childhood - we learn very early to seek help from a 'higher power' when we are young. If you cannot do it, appeal to mother or father. Especially when you're scared or hurt.

When we become adults, that desire for help doesn't just disappear - but that's no reason to accept things without reason.


You can see a hint of the answer to your original questions in your own statement here Cory. You are asserting a statement that amounts to a "just so story". It has nothing "scientific" supporting it. No rigorous experiment has tested this (I doubt any experiment at all has been done and even if it has I doubt you were a priori aware of it) and yet you accept it as a likely explanation because it makes sense with your worldview. You do not demand the same level of scrutiny of your own statements that you demand when confronting others with their own statements about the world. So, if you are able to have the personal insight, you can see that you, yourself do not live up to your own standard of only operating on statements backed up by "science". At best this should help you see that science is not the only avenue to potential statements of truth, at worst it could show you we are all guilty of building our worldview upon shaky foundations of faith. You. Me. Everybody.


Psychology in general isn't very scientific. it's fun to think about, sometimes, and it can seem intuitive. Of course, many intuitive things are not true.

Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.
02/06/2015 03:56:08 PM · #94
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by nygold:


Last time.
The heightened senses during these times I understand thats an instinct that allows your brain to process a tremendous amount of information for a short duration.
It's what makes people grasp for a higher power during these times?
Leave religion out of it. There must be an explanation for it.

Yes all things have a "survival" instict but only humans switch into spiritual mode.


I think it's an interesting question. An answer, which is also rational (alongside Cory's answer), but may or may not resonate with your own worldview, is that we have placed within us an understanding that something larger than ourselves exists. At times of high stress and fear all other things are put aside and this message is laid bare. I think this type of information would be called "revelational". It is neither foolproof nor locktight information, but yet it exists. Most of the world, in fact, acknowledges it and only a small minority lend it no credence.


I would argue that Cory's guess at the answer is far superior than yours. In the case of Cory's, a lot of the evidence is indeed observable. You can simply observe people replacing "god" for "mother and father" in the same types of situations they were exposed to as children. In your rationale, you cannot observe or provide any evidence for something being "placed within us".
02/06/2015 03:58:48 PM · #95
Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.
02/06/2015 04:30:37 PM · #96
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.


what do you mean when you say mathematicians do not employ the scientific method? that's not right....

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 16:30:52.
02/06/2015 04:38:55 PM · #97
Originally posted by LanndonKane:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.


what do you mean when you say mathematicians do not employ the scientific method? that's not right....


Yes. It is. :)

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."

You can see that our mathematical statement 0.99999(9)...=1 cannot be proven through observation, measurement and experimentation, right?
02/06/2015 04:42:53 PM · #98
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.


I don't understand what you mean: 1/3 = 0.333333, so 3/3 = 0.999999

I don't think empiricism is the only method of 'testing' something. One can logically deduce.

02/06/2015 04:56:58 PM · #99
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.


I don't understand what you mean: 1/3 = 0.333333, so 3/3 = 0.999999

I don't think empiricism is the only method of 'testing' something. One can logically deduce.


Oh, he's right enough - math allows for this because of the strangeness that happens at infinity (a non-real construct mind you)...

So, while any normal reasonable person can easily see that 0.99999(9) never equals one (something like an asymptote), we can play games with math to build a proof of this that does withstand the rules of mathematics, but that's a fairly rare circumstance - and if we just stop with the imaginary concept of infinity, then it's no longer true at all.

But I do applaud Sneezy for managing to bring out imaginary things even in math.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 17:00:00.
02/06/2015 04:58:46 PM · #100
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:


Anyway, can you give me an example of another avenue best science that can reveal what is true.


I'm going to assume "best" was a typo for "beyond" (friggin autocorrect)?

Mathematics would be an easy one for you to intuitively grasp. The truths of mathematics do not employ the Scientific Method to derive them. As an example, it is a mathematical truth that 0.99999(9)...=1 That is, the number represented by 0.999 with an infinite repeating of 9s is the same as the number 1. You can probably grasp that this truth is impossible to verify in the real world through experimentation.


I don't understand what you mean: 1/3 = 0.333333, so 3/3 = 0.999999

I don't think empiricism is the only method of 'testing' something. One can logically deduce.


I agree with your second statement and was just giving Lanndon an example. And you are right: 3/3= 0.9999... as well as 3/3=1 Therefore, 0.9999...=1 I'm not sure that's the formal proof, but it's helpful to grasp a non-intuitive truth.
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