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DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> Christians Vs. Religious(other) - Evidence & Proof
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Showing posts 51 - 75 of 350, (reverse)
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02/06/2015 02:16:20 AM · #51
Originally posted by Neat:



Well miracles are definetely proof of existense of God, of which I've been a witness to many.

But Phrophecy is the biggest proof, have you read "Revelation" lately!


Really now.

Would you care to list those instance of miracles that have undergone and passed scientific scrutiny ?

A point form summation will suffice.

Ray
02/06/2015 02:32:30 AM · #52
Mrs Dalton had been happily married to her husband Garry for nearly ten years, she was still totally head over heels in love with him. She decided that to show her love for him that she'd get his initials tattooed on her buttocks, one on each cheek. When he came back from work she told him that she had a surprise for him, she went to the bedroom and positioned herself on all fours then told him to come in and turn on the lights, he came in flicked the light switch on and screamed "but I don't believe in GOD"
02/06/2015 06:31:38 AM · #53
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Neat:



Well miracles are definetely proof of existense of God, of which I've been a witness to many.

But Phrophecy is the biggest proof, have you read "Revelation" lately!


Really now.

Would you care to list those instance of miracles that have undergone and passed scientific scrutiny ?

A point form summation will suffice.

Ray


it's proof to her and that's all that matters. just let people believe what they want.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 06:31:52.
02/06/2015 06:46:11 AM · #54
I'm an atheist - I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family and when I asked questions similar to the ones Cory asks up top, I didn't get satisfactory answers and so I stopped believing, if indeed I had ever believed.

But, once I started doubting I couldn't stop and now I doubt everything. I don't believe that science has a lot of the answers that it claims (though I think that in time it will have many more 'truths')

I am actually envious of my religious friends and familys' certainty and hope. I could bait them with 'how old is the earth?' or 'who did Cain marry if Adam and Eve were the only people created?' but what's the point???
02/06/2015 06:57:15 AM · #55
Originally posted by Mike:



it's proof to her and that's all that matters. just let people believe what they want.


Too bad this type of mindset was not the prevailing attitudes displayed by the new arrivals to North America and a few other places.

Ray
02/06/2015 07:04:50 AM · #56
I haven't had time to read all of this, so I may be Yanko'ing many people.

But belief in evolution and believe in God are not mutually exclusive. Yes there are some Christians who believe in the literal 6 day creation. But there are many people who believe that 1 day doesn't have to translate as a day, and that creation and evolution aren't incompatible. It's been a very long time since I've had this conversation, because I don't find it as interesting any more. But isn't interesting that light was created first -- man last in the list. And things (minus the planets one) in the right order?

Not saying it's a reason to believe. Just saying that they don't have to conflict. We have a bunch of PhD physics at our church. And they have no problem believing in both.

02/06/2015 07:08:48 AM · #57
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Mike:



it's proof to her and that's all that matters. just let people believe what they want.


Too bad this type of mindset was not the prevailing attitudes displayed by the new arrivals to North America and a few other places.

Ray


I think, historically, the thinking was to conflate religion with progress and enlightenment, hence the 'savages' needed to be 'converted'. Combined with greed, we have the gross wrongdoings of the , colonial and empire building eras, supported by religous dogma. Interesting, now, that we see religious dogma being the basis of violence against 'enlightened' and 'advanced' secular societies.
02/06/2015 07:09:31 AM · #58
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Mike:



it's proof to her and that's all that matters. just let people believe what they want.


Too bad this type of mindset was not the prevailing attitudes displayed by the new arrivals to North America and a few other places.

Ray


atheists, just as theists are often or always irrational and intolerant, and extremely coercive. luckily we seem to be moving in the direction that we need to figure out how to coexist on this planet, i'm fine with religion, its that damned money that keeps messing things up.

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 07:11:24.
02/06/2015 07:14:56 AM · #59
Originally posted by Mike:

i'm fine with religion, its that damned money that keeps messing things up.


Yep. Money, land, natural resources etc. I figure that's what most wars are fought over even if on the surface they appear to be 'religious'. Although combine political power, a rush to secure and use up natural resources (causing extreme climate change) with an apocalyptic desire, or even need for the 'End Times' of Revelations then that's quite a potent mix.
02/06/2015 07:30:20 AM · #60
Originally posted by vawendy:

I haven't had time to read all of this, so I may be Yanko'ing many people.

But belief in evolution and believe in God are not mutually exclusive. Yes there are some Christians who believe in the literal 6 day creation. But there are many people who believe that 1 day doesn't have to translate as a day, and that creation and evolution aren't incompatible. It's been a very long time since I've had this conversation, because I don't find it as interesting any more. But isn't interesting that light was created first -- man last in the list. And things (minus the planets one) in the right order?

Not saying it's a reason to believe. Just saying that they don't have to conflict. We have a bunch of PhD physics at our church. And they have no problem believing in both.


Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Regarding "forbidden foods", that's transcribed wisdom. Before food safety laws, before refrigeration, etc, certain things were terribly dangerous to eat. Trichinosis was endemic in swine, for example. Shrimp begin to decay very rapidly as soon as they die. Shellfish are toxin filters, and in some times of the year they are actively poisonous. So a bunch of very smart religious leaders codified this stuff into the Old Testament in the process of writing it. How else are you gonna get an entire nation, or ethnic group, to observe necessary dietary laws except by making them part of their religion?


The thing I don't get is why these reasonable, middle of the road approaches are so alien & objectionable to so many of the fervent.

Times change, society and the world evolves, and it's just plain sensible to progress as life moves along.

Yeah......pork would kill you, and 2000 years ago we didn't have carbon dating. Look at a fifty year old atlas........in today's world, it's fiction.

What boggles my teeny little brain is the whole who is "Right" scenario.

It just doesn't seem remotely logical to write off the rest of the world as wrong/bad.
02/06/2015 07:37:52 AM · #61
I have nothing against religion, in fact if it made people less egoist I would be all for it, unfortunately history has tought us that it does just the opposite. I do believe though that one can follow a spiritual path without being religious, sounding out what makes us tick, examining our fears and desires, treating people like we would like to be treated etc, this can only lead to a better situation for ourselves and our fellow man.
Any practice than can help us go beyond our restricted egotistical vision of the world is a good thing, any practice that makes that vision even narrower isn't, modern day Christianity falls into this last category for me.
02/06/2015 07:39:11 AM · #62
Originally posted by NikonJeb:


It just doesn't seem remotely logical to write off the rest of the world as wrong/bad.


very true, but thinking as I type, would it be true to say that the most fervent, crusading religions of our times are Islam and Christianity? (are there Hindu, Buddhist missionaries?) Could it be that their need to swell their ranks and 'conquer' other religions comes from the fact that their own legitimacy is fundamentally questionable because of their status as offshoots? (of Judaism)

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 07:39:31.
02/06/2015 07:46:53 AM · #63
Originally posted by NikonJeb:


It just doesn't seem remotely logical to write off the rest of the world as wrong/bad.


Originally posted by ray_mefarso:

very true, but thinking as I type, would it be true to say that the most fervent, crusading religions of our times are Islam and Christianity?


Absolutely! And they're the ones most outspoken on the right/wrong issue. What if they're both wrong?

Originally posted by ray_mefarso:

Could it be that their need to swell their ranks and 'conquer' other religions comes from the fact that their own legitimacy is fundamentally questionable because of their status as offshoots? (of Judaism)


The benevolent god theory doesn't hold much water when the idea is to kill the opposition.
02/06/2015 09:16:55 AM · #64
Originally posted by ray_mefarso:

I'm an atheist - I grew up in a Christian fundamentalist family and when I asked questions similar to the ones Cory asks up top, I didn't get satisfactory answers and so I stopped believing, if indeed I had ever believed.

But, once I started doubting I couldn't stop and now I doubt everything. I don't believe that science has a lot of the answers that it claims (though I think that in time it will have many more 'truths')

I am actually envious of my religious friends and familys' certainty and hope. I could bait them with 'how old is the earth?' or 'who did Cain marry if Adam and Eve were the only people created?' but what's the point???


i think you will enjoy this.
02/06/2015 09:33:27 AM · #65
Originally posted by LanndonKane:



i think you will enjoy this.


I enjoyed it!
02/06/2015 09:44:26 AM · #66
Originally posted by Jules1x:

Originally posted by LanndonKane:



i think you will enjoy this.


I enjoyed it!


he's a real great guy.
02/06/2015 09:45:52 AM · #67
This is all very interesting and I'll start off by saying no I don't have the answer to any of those questions.
I was raised catholic but I'm not a religious person. A tribe who throws small bones in to a turtle shell and uses hallucinogenics to step in to the spiritual world is just as relevant to me as the big major religions.

That being said after being around for over 40 years you start to notice things and those things made be a believer in God.
It was the atheist's that opened my eyes.

I was on a boat with a few other men and we ended up getting caught in a VERY nasty squall, 80mph winds, HEAVy rain, hail, lightning the whole 9. One of the guys on board was a hard nose athiest to the bones (Cory is an altar boy compared to this guy). Anyhow I actually heard this guy pray out loud.
This isn't this first time I've encountered such behavior I'm guilty my self of having done it a few times.

I believe that deep in everyone's brain there is a belief it's just that most people tie that belief to a religion.
Maybe religion is a way to stay connected to that belief.

Who knows maybe I just drink too much gin around the campfire.
02/06/2015 09:50:24 AM · #68
Originally posted by nygold:

This is all very interesting and I'll start off by saying no I don't have the answer to any of those questions.
I was raised catholic but I'm not a religious person. A tribe who throws small bones in to a turtle shell and uses hallucinogenics to step in to the spiritual world is just as relevant to me as the big major religions.

That being said after being around for over 40 years you start to notice things and those things made be a believer in God.
It was the atheist's that opened my eyes.

I was on a boat with a few other men and we ended up getting caught in a VERY nasty squall, 80mph winds, HEAVy rain, hail, lightning the whole 9. One of the guys on board was a hard nose athiest to the bones (Cory is an altar boy compared to this guy). Anyhow I actually heard this guy pray out loud.
This isn't this first time I've encountered such behavior I'm guilty my self of having done it a few times.

I believe that deep in everyone's brain there is a belief it's just that most people tie that belief to a religion.
Maybe religion is a way to stay connected to that belief.

Who knows maybe I just drink too much gin around the campfire.


here's one for you
02/06/2015 11:14:08 AM · #69
...

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 11:16:41.
02/06/2015 11:16:27 AM · #70
Originally posted by nygold:



I was on a boat with a few other men and we ended up getting caught in a VERY nasty squall, 80mph winds, HEAVy rain, hail, lightning the whole 9. One of the guys on board was a hard nose athiest to the bones (Cory is an altar boy compared to this guy). Anyhow I actually heard this guy pray out loud.


How do you know he was praying? Often times desperation leads us to 'wish' for things out loud, which is admittedly pretty much the same thing as prayer, but how do you know that he was directing this at a superior being?

I certainly have been known to say "Oh god, I hope this works" or things like that, but I'm just using a common phrase in my vernacular, I have no intention of appealing to the good will of an omnipotent being, even though it might sound to an outside observer that I am doing exactly that.

Essentially, I'm asking you, how do you know he suddenly started to believe in God?

And in case there's any question, I'm almost absolutely sure that I'll never seriously appeal to a higher power to intervene, although I will often wish for a bit of lucky random chance. :)
02/06/2015 11:39:46 AM · #71
Originally posted by Cory:


Essentially, I'm asking you, how do you know he suddenly started to believe in God?


I don't know what he believed in, you can call it God or a magic stick I have no idea.
But I do know what ever it was that guy believed in it was a higher power than him.

I'm really more interested in WHY. Why does the human body resort to a higher power of some sort when we encounter a near death experience? Is it just because that's what we see others do, or is it embedded in our psyche?

02/06/2015 11:58:38 AM · #72
Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Cory:


Essentially, I'm asking you, how do you know he suddenly started to believe in God?


I don't know what he believed in, you can call it God or a magic stick I have no idea.
But I do know what ever it was that guy believed in it was a higher power than him.

I'm really more interested in WHY. Why does the human body resort to a higher power of some sort when we encounter a near death experience? Is it just because that's what we see others do, or is it embedded in our psyche?


Probably a hold-over from childhood - we learn very early to seek help from a 'higher power' when we are young. If you cannot do it, appeal to mother or father. Especially when you're scared or hurt.

When we become adults, that desire for help doesn't just disappear - but that's no reason to accept things without reason.

--
As for you assertion that you KNOW that the guy believed in a higher power - how do you know this for sure? What evidence did you have of this? Or are you just using 'know' in the biblical sense?

Message edited by author 2015-02-06 11:59:12.
02/06/2015 12:28:21 PM · #73
Originally posted by Cory:

--
As for you assertion that you KNOW that the guy believed in a higher power - how do you know this for sure? What evidence did you have of this? Or are you just using 'know' in the biblical sense?


Call it whatever you want, that guy was asking for help from a force that I couldn't see, feel, or touch.
I (using my very limited science part of my mind) find it hard to believe the power he was speaking to was equal or lesser than his own.
Heck he could have turned to me for help, I was at the helm.

Like I said ealier is it a copy cat thing or is it in our brain.

Even you weren't 100%, your answer started with Probably a hold-over from childhood .

It is nice to have a civil conversation about such a topic, too bad I wasn't more religious then we could argue. :P
02/06/2015 12:32:59 PM · #74
Originally posted by nygold:

Originally posted by Cory:

--
As for you assertion that you KNOW that the guy believed in a higher power - how do you know this for sure? What evidence did you have of this? Or are you just using 'know' in the biblical sense?


Call it whatever you want, that guy was asking for help from a force that I couldn't see, feel, or touch.
I (using my very limited science part of my mind) find it hard to believe the power he was speaking to was equal or lesser than his own.
Heck he could have turned to me for help, I was at the helm.

Like I said ealier is it a copy cat thing or is it in our brain.

Even you weren't 100%, your answer started with Probably a hold-over from childhood .

It is nice to have a civil conversation about such a topic, too bad I wasn't more religious then we could argue. :P


LOL, I prefer civility myself, and do my best to maintain that even when arguing with the biggest zealots. :)

And no, I'm almost never 100% certain of ANYTHING, unless it's mathematically/logically true (ie 1=1 is always 100% true)

Obviously I wasn't there, but I do know that people have often commented or objected to my use of the word god. And of course, I also question just how committed of an atheist he was - sometimes the most vocal are the least convinced and are only trying to convince themselves. Do you know if he was raised as a Christian? It would be fairly understandable to revert to childhood tendencies when under dire threat.
02/06/2015 12:52:25 PM · #75
Cory lots of people say "Oh my God" and things of that nature and I get it and just chalk it up to a phrase nothing more nothing less. BUT I think the reason why this particular instance stuck in my head is because the guy went in to prayer mode on me. Don't forget I was in the zone, my brain was taking in every little detail. Maybe that's why it's so vivid.

I'm trying to figure out when his brain thought "This is it" what mode is that in the brain?
Maybe some people don't have that mode? Maybe others have a heightened mode that's triggered easily?
To me there are just too many accounts of (I don't know why to call it) lets say religious like emotions for it to not have some kind of scientific basis.
Maybe it's just never been studied before.
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