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02/03/2015 08:35:59 PM · #1
Unreal.. People are a bunch of panicky herd animals. Since when did America lose their moniker as the "Land of the brave" and replace it with "Land of the chickenshit"?

I mean, for crying out loud, I play with explosives quite often - and I can tell you that I'm not aware of ANY coke-can sized explosive that would pose a real danger to that bridge. And frankly, a coke-can sized IED isn't going to do a hell of a lot of damage, even against soft-targets. This was just a completely disproportionate response level.
02/03/2015 08:40:15 PM · #2
When we allowed lawyers to run the country and turn every sue-happy.
02/03/2015 08:48:59 PM · #3
In our paranoid, interwebz-misinformed state, any device that looks suspicious raises concerns, especially with the way some of those looked. "Properly" set up and signed installations may have prevented the highway closure, but not likely, as signs lie too. I know that if I'd found one of those in my kid's school, for instance, I'd've contacted the authorities too. And I don't necessarily consider myself highly paranoid.
02/03/2015 09:04:14 PM · #4
Originally posted by tanguera:

When we allowed lawyers to run the country and turn every sue-happy.


Huh?
02/03/2015 10:02:20 PM · #5
"Police are working with the school to remove all the cameras, the university release said."

Ridiculous.
02/03/2015 10:57:00 PM · #6
Originally posted by bvy:

"Police are working with the school to remove all the cameras, the university release said."

Ridiculous.


I'm sorely tempted to make about 1000 of these and go put them around.

Message edited by author 2015-02-03 22:57:09.
02/04/2015 12:22:42 AM · #7
Frankly, I hope the school gets fined for the cost of the shut down. Someone was really stupid to come up with putting anything that could be construed to be an explosive device. Those of you that say the officials over reacted just don't understand the impact of something like this. What if it was a diversion or a test to try out an idea or it wasn't an explosive but a can full of toxin? You say that the officials should have ignored it? What if it was real? Maybe next time it will be real or the time after that? Or maybe copy-cat idiots will decide to do exactly what Cory suggested and puts 1000 of these all over the place... and someone puts the 1001 st one out that is real.

I have seen the damage that small explosives placed by terrorists can do first hand and though the bridge may not have been hurt, what about people walking or biking or driving near by? It was just a stupid and ill conceived idea all around by the university or what ever group thought this up.

Mike
02/04/2015 01:39:02 AM · #8
Originally posted by MikeJ:

Frankly, I hope the school gets fined for the cost of the shut down. Someone was really stupid to come up with putting anything that could be construed to be an explosive device. Those of you that say the officials over reacted just don't understand the impact of something like this. What if it was a diversion or a test to try out an idea or it wasn't an explosive but a can full of toxin? You say that the officials should have ignored it? What if it was real? Maybe next time it will be real or the time after that? Or maybe copy-cat idiots will decide to do exactly what Cory suggested and puts 1000 of these all over the place... and someone puts the 1001 st one out that is real.

I have seen the damage that small explosives placed by terrorists can do first hand and though the bridge may not have been hurt, what about people walking or biking or driving near by? It was just a stupid and ill conceived idea all around by the university or what ever group thought this up.

Mike


You do realize that people have been making pin-hole cameras out of Coke cans basically since the day Coke cans was introduced right? And you realize that duct tape is NOT an unusual way to secure things to other things right?

So, really, I mean, use your imagination, hell every person on every street corner looks like a terrorist, and we've seen the damage one terrorist can do, and you know how they go out of their way to look just like any ordinary citizen. And of course, most delivery trucks look EXACTLY like VBIEDs. So, I think in order to be cautious (can you imagine a large VBIED in lower Manhattan?!?) we should probably all run and hide under our desks anytime a box-truck passes by, and frankly, we should shut down the interstate every time one parks on the shoulder.

..

You can have your prison of fear, I'll live my life as a free man, thanks, and I wish my once courageous country and countrymen would see the error of this type of response, and hope that one day soon we might start to act more like our brave forefathers, and less like the nation of scared children we seem to be today.

Message edited by author 2015-02-04 01:39:45.
02/04/2015 02:19:19 AM · #9
It isn't a first. In 2007 in Boston a street artist stuck up a few light brite type toys depciting Aqua Teen Hunger Force characters. The police freaked out.

I figure this may be a result of cutting arts funding in schools. We all know that anything that we do not understand could be a threat. Those who are supposed to safeguard us do not seem have any idea what artists do. Therefore art is indistinguishable from a public threat.

Originally posted by MikeJ:

Someone was really stupid to come up with putting anything that could be construed to be an explosive device.


You have some experience in this area well beyond my own, so what in your estimation is beyond "anything that could be construed to be an explosive device"? Is there any container that could not possibly be construed as such from a coke can to a semi trailer?

Message edited by author 2015-02-04 16:21:37.
02/04/2015 03:24:48 AM · #10
Originally posted by MikeJ:

Frankly, I hope the school gets fined for the cost of the shut down. Someone was really stupid to come up with putting anything that could be construed to be an explosive device. Those of you that say the officials over reacted just don't understand the impact of something like this. What if it was a diversion or a test to try out an idea or it wasn't an explosive but a can full of toxin? You say that the officials should have ignored it? What if it was real? Maybe next time it will be real or the time after that? Or maybe copy-cat idiots will decide to do exactly what Cory suggested and puts 1000 of these all over the place... and someone puts the 1001 st one out that is real.

I have seen the damage that small explosives placed by terrorists can do first hand and though the bridge may not have been hurt, what about people walking or biking or driving near by? It was just a stupid and ill conceived idea all around by the university or what ever group thought this up.

Mike


Then people/authorities become scared of everyday objects, the terrorists have already won.
When you start to see a terrorist plot (or a possibility of it) in every little thing, the terrorists have already won.
You have become permanently terrorized by life. No air force, no weaponized drone, no aircraft carrier and no army in the world can win it.

02/04/2015 07:13:28 AM · #11
Originally posted by MikeJ:

Frankly, I hope the school gets fined for the cost of the shut down.


why?

the police were doing their jobs.

02/04/2015 10:13:54 PM · #12
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

It isn't a first. In 2007 in Boston a street artist stuck up a few light brite type toys depciting Aqua Teen Hunger Force characters. The police freaked out.

I figure this may be a result of cutting arts funding in schools. We all know that anything that we do not understand could be a threat. Those who are supposed to safeguard us do not seem have any idea what artists do. Therefore art is indistinguishable from a public threat.

Originally posted by MikeJ:

Someone was really stupid to come up with putting anything that could be construed to be an explosive device.


You have some experience in this area well beyond my own, so what in your estimation is beyond "anything that could be construed to be an explosive device"? Is there any container that could not possibly be construed as such from a coke can to a semi trailer?


A pin hole cameras is usually not left out in the public all by themselves and they aren't usually left on structures that would be prime targets of someone wanting to cause damage or harm to the public? Even a small container of some of the plastic type of explosives can do a lot of damage or a package of one of the toxins. Unfortunately, we live in a time where we have to be aware of our surroundings and notice anything that doesn't belong. Boston found that out the hard way. Atlanta found that out back in the 90's. The one I was close to in Germany that took out our AF officers club was a small explosive put in a closet but the building was a total loss and almost caused a very large propane tank to go up. The one that took out the Frankfurt Army HQ was bigger but not all that much so and took out the front of the building and sprayed glass out on the sidewalk and road. This was a very irresponsible stunt with out a lot of thinking or consideration of what people would think when they saw it.

Mike

Message edited by author 2015-02-04 22:24:04.
02/05/2015 02:45:11 AM · #13
Originally posted by MikeJ:



A pin hole cameras is usually not left out in the public all by themselves and they aren't usually left on structures that would be prime targets of someone wanting to cause damage or harm to the public? Even a small container of some of the plastic type of explosives can do a lot of damage or a package of one of the toxins. Unfortunately, we live in a time where we have to be aware of our surroundings and notice anything that doesn't belong. Boston found that out the hard way. Atlanta found that out back in the 90's. The one I was close to in Germany that took out our AF officers club was a small explosive put in a closet but the building was a total loss and almost caused a very large propane tank to go up. The one that took out the Frankfurt Army HQ was bigger but not all that much so and took out the front of the building and sprayed glass out on the sidewalk and road. This was a very irresponsible stunt with out a lot of thinking or consideration of what people would think when they saw it.

Mike


So, where do I start?

First, it's not uncommon for a pinhole camera to be left in place for many hours, or even weeks at a time. Surely you don't think that there's someone there sitting on the camera the whole time?

Secondly, they are usually left on structures. (you can determine which would be prime targets, I'm not really an expert in that area)

Third, are you f-ing kidding me? A small container of C4 (or any other plastic of which I am aware) will NOT do a great deal of damage - in fact, it's generally considered that a device this size is appropriate only for soft targets, and wouldn't be AT ALL effective on a structure - not even a shaped charge of this size is going to do genuinely serious damage (as I previously explained, you must have missed that?)..

Fourth, what toxins are you talking about? I can't readily think of any toxins that would be concerning in such a small amount. Now, biological or radioactive agents? Sure, but you don't really need a bomb to disperse either of those, so I doubt that your fear is justified.

Fifth, you mention the Boston Marathon bomber - the irony of this is that despite a great deal of security meant to prevent this exact occurrence, it still happened. These guys don't go out and make something that looks like a bomb, then place it like a bomb... They just don't.

Finally, I get that you've suffered some level of PTSD due to events in your past, but I think your reaction is EXACTLY what they want, so basically, your response is the victory they want and it makes me sad to see you giving it to them, what's more is that it makes me REALLY sad to see the entire country giving them their desired result. What a shame.

ETA:
To back up my assertion about the effects of C4, I looked for a video with a coke-can sized amount of plastic explosive. Turns out that it's REALLY hard to find one, mostly because this is a fairly unimpressive amount of explosive. I'll never deny that it can do damage, but the level of actual damage would be extremely limited in an open-air environment, and even in an enclosed space this amount wouldn't do spectacular damage. Too bad though, I'm sure the military would LOVE a 1lb warhead that could take down a bridge..

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 02:54:58.
02/05/2015 06:01:26 AM · #14
Hello!!
02/05/2015 08:45:18 AM · #15
this wouldn't be an issue if the school or photographer had just notified the police of their intent.

we can rant and rave all day about our over reactive culture, but at the end of the day, someone put something where there shouldn't have been anything without telling the authorities or asking if they could.
02/05/2015 09:27:01 AM · #16
Originally posted by Mike:

this wouldn't be an issue if the school or photographer had just notified the police of their intent.

we can rant and rave all day about our over reactive culture, but at the end of the day, someone put something where there shouldn't have been anything without telling the authorities or asking if they could.

Exactly. These are the times in which we live. If your public art project hasn't been thought out well and properly permitted, causing it to be removed... well, you failed.
02/05/2015 10:06:21 AM · #17
Unfortunately it IS the world we live in. In the Tristate area we are told " If you see something say something".
These signs are all over Manhattan. You have the right to go about your everyday business and not be aware of your surroundings BUT there may be a price to pay. You take a nice trip to New York, you got a great price on a hotel room in Timesquare and you jump on the subway to get some Wo hop's in China town.
You see a box under a seat, only a few people in that car and know one is within 5 seats of the box.
Hummmmm.... What to do, what to do? Prior to 2000 most people would have looked in the box.

I'm a bit confused about the coke can sized explosive device.
How big does an explosion have to be to get peoples attention?
I'm no expert but if I google explosive devices, one that fits in to a backpack would IT be in the very small to tiny side.
After the Boston incident it sure got my attention.

I'm not saying we should run around like scared rats but we MUST pay more attention to our surroundings.
02/05/2015 10:37:46 AM · #18
Originally posted by nygold:

Unfortunately it IS the world we live in. In the Tristate area we are told " If you see something say something".
These signs are all over Manhattan. You have the right to go about your everyday business and not be aware of your surroundings BUT there may be a price to pay. You take a nice trip to New York, you got a great price on a hotel room in Timesquare and you jump on the subway to get some Wo hop's in China town.
You see a box under a seat, only a few people in that car and know one is within 5 seats of the box.
Hummmmm.... What to do, what to do? Prior to 2000 most people would have looked in the box.

I'm a bit confused about the coke can sized explosive device.
How big does an explosion have to be to get peoples attention?
I'm no expert but if I google explosive devices, one that fits in to a backpack would IT be in the very small to tiny side.
After the Boston incident it sure got my attention.

I'm not saying we should run around like scared rats but we MUST pay more attention to our surroundings.


Clearly I agree that if you see something, say something - that's fine - but this was a total over-reaction.

As for as 'how big does an explosion have to be to get people attention'? I find that a fart will usually do the trick, and that's pretty darn low-order stuff. But, heck I can yell and get people's attention, and firecrackers are a GREAT way to grab attention. Remind me what this has to do with anything? Are you seriously suggesting that anything big enough to "get people's attention" should shut down parts of a city? That's just crazy.

In terms of size, a back-pack sized device (pressure cooker) has about 10x the volume of a coke-can at a minimum, meaning there's a HELL of a lot more energy there. Still small, but large enough to do real damage. Did you watch the video I posted demonstrating the size of 400g of C4? Not all that big of a boom, but you still don't want to have it go off in your hand.
02/05/2015 11:19:45 AM · #19
Originally posted by Cory:


Clearly I agree that if you see something, say something - that's fine - but this was a total over-reaction.

As for as 'how big does an explosion have to be to get people attention'? I find that a fart will usually do the trick, and that's pretty darn low-order stuff. But, heck I can yell and get people's attention, and firecrackers are a GREAT way to grab attention. Remind me what this has to do with anything? Are you seriously suggesting that anything big enough to "get people's attention" should shut down parts of a city? That's just crazy.

In terms of size, a back-pack sized device (pressure cooker) has about 10x the volume of a coke-can at a minimum, meaning there's a HELL of a lot more energy there. Still small, but large enough to do real damage. Did you watch the video I posted demonstrating the size of 400g of C4? Not all that big of a boom, but you still don't want to have it go off in your hand.


I guess the question is then "Whats the best way to react"?

I the authorities are notified about a suspicious package what is the proper response?

Lets say for for instance the Boston police dept. was tipped off before the race about multiple explosive divices around the finish line and decided to not look in to it? Then the media found out and reported as such.

It would be a Cory field day, your keyboard would have been smoking, and rightly so.

Maybe some kind of scanner or something would be quicker and a lot less silly than a Johnny 5 robot that takes hours to deploy for a go-pro on a bridge.

02/05/2015 12:02:36 PM · #20
What if it had no sign on it? Then it would have been just a Coke can, indistinct from the hundredes we see scattered in the streets everyday. As a terrorist, I'd be much more likely not to put a sign on my Coke can/bomb. As a policeman or someone in authority, I'd be much more likely to dismiss it.
02/05/2015 01:39:02 PM · #21
Originally posted by bvy:

What if it had no sign on it? Then it would have been just a Coke can, indistinct from the hundredes we see scattered in the streets everyday. As a terrorist, I'd be much more likely not to put a sign on my Coke can/bomb. As a policeman or someone in authority, I'd be much more likely to dismiss it.


Personally, IF I was going to try my hand at terrorism, I think I'd be more likely to go for infrastructure targets, and I think I'd use a backhoe instead of a bomb (do you have ANY idea how much disruption can be caused by simply CUTTING the right cables?)

With that being said, assuming I was committed to the idea of an IED, here's what I would do: get a job with some sort of event service (catering, or another place that provides tables/chairs/etc), then I would fill the table or chair, or whatever, with explosives, triggered by a simple timer. Now, tell me, how exactly would you defend against this?

If I was committed to the idea of an IED on the street, I'm pretty sure that I'd buy a Nathan's Hotdogs stand, and just pack that baby to the hilt. Essentially, I'd choose a very common, normal, mobile object, and would weaponize it. Now, again, tell me how you would propose that we defend against this?

--

I came up with those three in about two minutes of thought, and have NO doubt at all that all three are within my limited abilities and budget. So, just imagine what a fellow who commits a year or two to this could come up with.

My point is this: Good luck preventing this shit - it's nearly impossible, and all of these efforts, noble as they may be, serve only to greatly increase the impact terrorists have upon us.

--

In response to ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' nygold, there's a major difference between responding, and over-responding. I DO think they are obligated to check it out, but checking it out is the FIRST step, you shut down the interstate ONLY AFTER you've checked it out and determined that there is a genuine reason for concern. And no, I do not think a duct-taped coke-can is reason for concern unless you see some other indicator that this might be an IED.

Message edited by author 2015-02-05 15:26:22.
02/05/2015 03:20:32 PM · #22
Originally posted by Cory:

I came up with those three in about two minutes of thought ...

... as do writers of TV thrillers about eight times a week -- good luck if one of them goes over to the dark side. :-(
+1 to the rest of your post too ...
02/05/2015 03:39:30 PM · #23
someone attacking the infrastructure would be one of the best things hat could happen in this country.
02/05/2015 03:49:38 PM · #24
Originally posted by Mike:

someone attacking the infrastructure would be one of the best things hat could happen in this country.


Ok, explain... I can't possibly see how this logic works out, but I'm willing to hear you out before attacking this.
02/05/2015 03:58:45 PM · #25
because its old, underfunded and failing and we are neglecting it, anything that would pump more money into it would be beneficial.

unfortunately its going to take a catastrophic event to get the lawmakers to open their eyes.
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