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09/23/2004 02:42:20 AM · #1 |
Just How Close is the Presidential Election?
As of September 23rd, 2004
* George W. Bush is at 47% and John Kerry is at 46% in the weighted national popular vote.
* Bush leads outside the margin of error in 17 states with 133 electoral votes.
* Kerry leads outside the margin of error in 10 states with 132 electoral votes.
* Bush has any lead in 29 states with 253 electoral votes.
* Kerry has any lead in 20 states with 270 electoral votes.
* Bush and Kerry are tied in Wisconsin and West Virginia.
* Bush needs to defend small leads in 5 states - Colorado, Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire, and Ohio.
* Kerry needs to defend small leads in 5 states - Maine, Florida, Minnesota, Oregon, and Pennsylvania.
* Among men nationwide, 51% say they would vote for Bush and 42% say they would vote for Kerry.
* Among women nationwide, 42% say they would vote for Bush and 50% say they would vote for Kerry.
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//www.americanresearchgroup.com/
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09/23/2004 09:02:49 AM · #2 |
The funny thing about your poll is that it is one of the very few polls that shows Kerry leading the electoral vote. Almost every national and acceptable poll that there is shows Bush leading. I wonder where their figures come from?
Also,if Bush wins the popular vote, and Kerry wins the electoral and becomes president, as your poll suggests, are all of the people who cried about Bush becoming president by electoral vote only going cry foul about Kerry? Or will they forget about their lamenting and smile like big fat hippocrites?
hmmmm.... I wonder....
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09/23/2004 10:51:16 AM · #3 |
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09/23/2004 10:57:53 AM · #4 |
I don't get it why !
This is how things are bad :
Cleveland Ranked Nation's Poorest Big City
2 hours, 45 minutes ago
By M.R. KROPKO, Associated Press Writer
CLEVELAND - Crushed by the loss of steel and other manufacturing jobs, Cleveland has ranked high for poverty before — but never No. 1. That changed when a report from the U.S. Census Bureau (news - web sites) recently rated it has the nation's poorest big city, putting it ahead of Detroit, Miami and Newark, N.J.
"To be ranked No. 1, that's bad," said Councilman Zachary Reed. "Let's be honest, the fact is people in our community are living in poverty and just making it day to day."
The unwanted distinction is the latest in a litany of struggles for Cleveland, which appeared to be on the rebound over the past decade, with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Cleveland Browns Stadium, Jacobs Field and Gund Arena.
But this year the budget-strapped port city laid off hundreds of police officers and firefighters and reduced trash pick up and other city services.
Hundreds of teachers and other workers were laid off from city schools and officials are pushing a $68 million tax increase on the November ballot to try to ease some of the schools' financial needs.
With a poverty rate of 31.3 percent in 2003, Cleveland stands out even in Ohio: Cincinnati's was 21.1 percent, Toledo 20.3 percent and Columbus 16.5 percent.
The overall poverty rate in the United States was 12.7 percent, according to the survey released Aug. 26.
"I guess I am a little surprised, because my sense was that Cleveland was a city on the rebound," said Tom Kaplan, the associate director of the Institute for Research on Poverty at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
Despite Cleveland's thriving image in the 1990s, poverty was always in the background, said Myron Robinson, president of the Urban League of Greater Cleveland and co-chair of a newly formed civic committee on job creation.
"We had probably about 42,000 African American males unemployed then, as now. It didn't get a lot of attention until now. It's like we hit rock bottom."
The city remains home to a few steel and other manufacturing companies, many with scaled back work forces.
Hospitals, banks, law firms and universities are other big employers in Cleveland, which has a 12.2 percent unemployment rate. That's nearly double the state rate of 6.3 percent in August, when the national rate was 5.4 percent.
Deann Hazey, spokeswoman for the Convention & Visitors Bureau of Greater Cleveland, views tourism as one solution to the poverty problem.
"We want to create a greater demand in the hospitality industries. Those with good people skills, not necessarily a college degree, can find a good job opportunity and work their way up," she said.
Rose Blade lives in Cleveland's Mount Pleasant neighborhood, where well-maintained homes and businesses mix with those in disrepair. The former factory worker is among the thousands who are unemployed.
"Things are really tough around here," said Blade, 45. "There's too many hungry people."
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09/23/2004 12:08:00 PM · #5 |
I see my 2nd post in this thread was deleted? may I have an explanation for the censorship please?
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09/23/2004 12:12:44 PM · #6 |
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09/23/2004 12:32:14 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
The funny thing about your poll is that it is one of the very few polls that shows Kerry leading the electoral vote. Almost every national and acceptable poll that there is shows Bush leading. I wonder where their figures come from? |
Note that the American Research Group, Inc is widely used by media outlets.
Also, note that the poll qualifies their electoral poll findings with: "Bush leads outside the margin of error" and "Kerry leads outside the margin of error." Also, note that the lead in the electoral college has changed hands repeatedly during the campaign:
link
Originally posted by Anachronite:
Also,if Bush wins the popular vote, and Kerry wins the electoral and becomes president, as your poll suggests, are all of the people who cried about Bush becoming president by electoral vote only going cry foul about Kerry? Or will they forget about their lamenting and smile like big fat hippocrites?
hmmmm.... I wonder.... |
You're forgetting about the most important factor in your caricature of how many of us feel about the 2000 election: the 5-4 vote in the supreme court (and all that it represented), that's what really pissed off a lot of people.
Supreme Court Justice Stevens summed up best in his dissenting opinion in Gore v. Bush, 2000:
"Time will one day heal the wound to that confidence that will be inflicted by today’s decision. One thing, however, is certain. Although we may never know with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year’s Presidential election, the identity of the loser is perfectly clear. It is the Nation’s confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law." opinion
I posted the poll to illustrate that the race, clearly, is not over. In fact, the real race will begin only after the first debate, and everything will come down to one thing: the effectiveness of the parties to get their supporters out to vote. Accordingly, KERRY SUPPORTERS MAKE SURE YOU'RE REGISTERED TO VOTE, KNOW WHERE YOUR POLLING PLACE IS AND VOTE. (As for Bush supporters, don't worry, you guys are already doing this. According to what I've seen, 80% of registered Republicans vote, while only 40% of registered Democrats vote.)
Message edited by author 2004-09-23 13:50:51. |
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09/23/2004 12:54:26 PM · #8 |
Also, wasn't the disenfranchisement of the nearly 100,000 black voters in Florida an issue, as well? Supposedly, these former felons that would have most likely voted democratic were not allowed to vote by actions taken by Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris and the company they hired to compile that purge list, Database Technologies (ChoicePoint).
Had that not occurred Gore would have won both the electoral and popular votes. |
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09/23/2004 01:05:48 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Anachronite:
I see my 2nd post in this thread was deleted? may I have an explanation for the censorship please? |
From the Terms of Service:
4.2 You will not use the DPChallenge.com Service to post content or to design, manufacture, market or sell a Product that (v) does or may denigrate or offend any ethnic, racial, gender, religious or other protected group, through use of language, images, stereotypical depiction or otherwise.
-Terry
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09/23/2004 04:26:46 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Also, wasn't the disenfranchisement of the nearly 100,000 black voters in Florida an issue, as well? Supposedly, these former felons that would have most likely voted democratic were not allowed to vote by actions taken by Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris and the company they hired to compile that purge list, Database Technologies (ChoicePoint).
Had that not occurred Gore would have won both the electoral and popular votes. |
Fruit cocktail ( you're mixin apples with oranges or bananas ). First you say "black voters", then you say "these former felons", then you say they weren't allowed to vote because of the purge list. So...Are you talking about
a) disenfranchised blacks?
b) disenfranchised Florida felons?
c) disenfranchised black Florida felons?
d) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) felons?
e) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) black felons?
What you've done is smeared Florida's government by innuendo. That being accomplished by erroneously tying it to things that it had nothing to do with. I call that unfair. |
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09/23/2004 11:13:02 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
I see my 2nd post in this thread was deleted? may I have an explanation for the censorship please? |
From the Terms of Service:
4.2 You will not use the DPChallenge.com Service to post content or to design, manufacture, market or sell a Product that (v) does or may denigrate or offend any ethnic, racial, gender, religious or other protected group, through use of language, images, stereotypical depiction or otherwise.
-Terry |
yes yes, I know the TOS... but my post did not denigrate anything other than the post of the naked buttocks... no ethinic, racial, gender, religious, or protected group was denigrated... I only made fun of the post... if your going to moderate and enforce the TOS you need to understand the meaning of the words in the TOS...
down with censorship!
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09/23/2004 11:17:25 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Also, wasn't the disenfranchisement of the nearly 100,000 black voters in Florida an issue, as well? Supposedly, these former felons that would have most likely voted democratic were not allowed to vote by actions taken by Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris and the company they hired to compile that purge list, Database Technologies (ChoicePoint).
Had that not occurred Gore would have won both the electoral and popular votes. |
Fruit cocktail ( you're mixin apples with oranges or bananas ). First you say "black voters", then you say "these former felons", then you say they weren't allowed to vote because of the purge list. So...Are you talking about
a) disenfranchised blacks?
b) disenfranchised Florida felons?
c) disenfranchised black Florida felons?
d) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) felons?
e) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) black felons?
What you've done is smeared Florida's government by innuendo. That being accomplished by erroneously tying it to things that it had nothing to do with. I call that unfair. |
***Well, Ron, the story, as I understand it is that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris hired Database Technologies to compile a list of felons in the state of Florida. Felons are not allowed to vote there. The list that DBT compiled had a lot of errors. 90% of the people on the list were not felons and had never committed any crimes. DBT did not do their homework and had put the names of people from other states on the list, or put names on the list that sounded similar, or had the names reversed, or some such fanagaling (sp?). The company never verified that the names on this list were actually felons in Florida, or anywhere, for that matter. They were, however, very careful to match race, and so many of the people on these purge lists turned out to be blacks.
James Lee, VP of Choicepoint, the parent company of DBT, admitted to a congressional committee that they were instructed by Florida state officials to match the names of people in Florida with Felons in order to knock them off the voter roles. They also knocked off 8000 people incorrectly off the voter roles who had committed misdemeanors, but were not felons. Also, it has been reported that in certain counties with high black populations the authorities threw away the votes, as happened in Gadsden County.
This story was first reported by Greg Palast and you can find it HERE.
If you have an alternate explanation I would like to hear it. |
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09/24/2004 02:18:36 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Also, note that the lead in the electoral college has changed hands repeatedly during the campaign:
link
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Just to keep things up to date:
What a difference a day makes... |
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09/24/2004 02:23:45 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by Anachronite:
I see my 2nd post in this thread was deleted? may I have an explanation for the censorship please? |
From the Terms of Service:
4.2 You will not use the DPChallenge.com Service to post content or to design, manufacture, market or sell a Product that (v) does or may denigrate or offend any ethnic, racial, gender, religious or other protected group, through use of language, images, stereotypical depiction or otherwise.
-Terry |
If you're going to enforce the TOS (which I'm all for), then please remove the image of the orininal offender under the final clause in section 4.2: You will not use the DPChallenge.com Service to post content ... that (ix) is generally offensive or in bad taste.
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09/28/2004 11:35:01 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Also, wasn't the disenfranchisement of the nearly 100,000 black voters in Florida an issue, as well? Supposedly, these former felons that would have most likely voted democratic were not allowed to vote by actions taken by Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris and the company they hired to compile that purge list, Database Technologies (ChoicePoint).
Had that not occurred Gore would have won both the electoral and popular votes. |
Fruit cocktail ( you're mixin apples with oranges or bananas ). First you say "black voters", then you say "these former felons", then you say they weren't allowed to vote because of the purge list. So...Are you talking about
a) disenfranchised blacks?
b) disenfranchised Florida felons?
c) disenfranchised black Florida felons?
d) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) felons?
e) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) black felons?
What you've done is smeared Florida's government by innuendo. That being accomplished by erroneously tying it to things that it had nothing to do with. I call that unfair. |
***Well, Ron, the story, as I understand it is that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris hired Database Technologies to compile a list of felons in the state of Florida. Felons are not allowed to vote there. The list that DBT compiled had a lot of errors. 90% of the people on the list were not felons and had never committed any crimes. DBT did not do their homework and had put the names of people from other states on the list, or put names on the list that sounded similar, or had the names reversed, or some such fanagaling (sp?). The company never verified that the names on this list were actually felons in Florida, or anywhere, for that matter. They were, however, very careful to match race, and so many of the people on these purge lists turned out to be blacks.
James Lee, VP of Choicepoint, the parent company of DBT, admitted to a congressional committee that they were instructed by Florida state officials to match the names of people in Florida with Felons in order to knock them off the voter roles. They also knocked off 8000 people incorrectly off the voter roles who had committed misdemeanors, but were not felons. Also, it has been reported that in certain counties with high black populations the authorities threw away the votes, as happened in Gadsden County.
This story was first reported by Greg Palast and you can find it HERE.
If you have an alternate explanation I would like to hear it. |
OK. So I'm assuming that you are referring to disenfranchised purgelist black felons. You should know, first of all, that the purgelist only contained the names, age, gender, and race of convicted felons from other states, not of those convicted in the state of Florida. So, before you go blaming Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, et.al., you should know that Florida Statute in effect in 2000 read as follows ( and be aware that it was enacted by the Florida Legislature ( not by Bush, not by Harris ). That statute was enacted in 1998 and read as follows:
------------------------------------------------------
Title IX
ELECTORS AND ELECTIONS Chapter 98
Registration Office, Officers, And Procedures View Entire Chapter
98.0975 Central voter file; periodic list maintenance.--
(1) By August 15, 1998, the division shall provide to each county supervisor of elections a list containing the name, address, date of birth, race, gender, and any other available information identifying the voter of each person included in the central voter file as a registered voter in the supervisor's county who:
(a) Is deceased;
(b) Has been convicted of a felony and has not had his or her civil rights restored; or
(c) Has been adjudicated mentally incompetent and whose mental capacity with respect to voting has not been restored.
(2) The division shall annually update the information required in subsection (1) and forward a like list to each supervisor by June 1 of each year.
(3)(a) In order to meet its obligations under this section, the division shall annually contract with a private entity to compare information in the central voter file with available information in other computer databases, including, without limitation, databases containing reliable criminal records and records of deceased persons.
(b) The entity contracted by the division is designated as an agent of the division for purposes of administering the contract, and must be limited to seeking only that information which is necessary for the division to meet its obligations under this section. Information obtained under this section may not be used for any purpose other than determining voter eligibility.
(4) Upon receiving the list from the division, the supervisor must attempt to verify the information provided. If the supervisor does not determine that the information provided by the division is incorrect, the supervisor must remove from the registration books by the next subsequent election the name of any person who is deceased, convicted of a felony, or adjudicated mentally incapacitated with respect to voting.
------------------------------------------------------
Two portions of the statute are noteworthy:
1) the statute stipulates that the division must annually "contract with a private entity to compare information in the central voter file with available information in other computer databases"
2) the statute stipulates that the local supervisor "must attempt to verify the information provided"
Database Technologies was the "private entity" selected in accordance with the provisions of the statute. And they did their job ( although it doesn't seem to me that the job they did was worth 23,000 dollars, let alone the 2.3 million dollars they were paid, but that's irrelevant to the issue ).
So, the REAL problem was with the local supervisors, who did not, or were unable to "verify the information provided" as required by law. As a result, eligible voters names were erroneously purged from the voter lists. Even so, consider this: the Miami Herald found that whites were twice as likely to be incorrectly placed on the list as blacks.
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09/28/2004 12:14:52 PM · #16 |
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09/28/2004 12:24:10 PM · #17 |
No, it won't.
There won't be any butterfly ballots this time around.
There won't be any punch-card ballots, either.
Were there OTHER problems that you are referring to, as well? If so, please provide a list. |
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10/05/2004 10:30:30 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Also, wasn't the disenfranchisement of the nearly 100,000 black voters in Florida an issue, as well? Supposedly, these former felons that would have most likely voted democratic were not allowed to vote by actions taken by Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris and the company they hired to compile that purge list, Database Technologies (ChoicePoint).
Had that not occurred Gore would have won both the electoral and popular votes. |
Fruit cocktail ( you're mixin apples with oranges or bananas ). First you say "black voters", then you say "these former felons", then you say they weren't allowed to vote because of the purge list. So...Are you talking about
a) disenfranchised blacks?
b) disenfranchised Florida felons?
c) disenfranchised black Florida felons?
d) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) felons?
e) disenfranchised purgelist ( non-Florida ) black felons?
What you've done is smeared Florida's government by innuendo. That being accomplished by erroneously tying it to things that it had nothing to do with. I call that unfair. |
***Well, Ron, the story, as I understand it is that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris hired Database Technologies to compile a list of felons in the state of Florida. Felons are not allowed to vote there. The list that DBT compiled had a lot of errors. 90% of the people on the list were not felons and had never committed any crimes. DBT did not do their homework and had put the names of people from other states on the list, or put names on the list that sounded similar, or had the names reversed, or some such fanagaling (sp?). The company never verified that the names on this list were actually felons in Florida, or anywhere, for that matter. They were, however, very careful to match race, and so many of the people on these purge lists turned out to be blacks.
James Lee, VP of Choicepoint, the parent company of DBT, admitted to a congressional committee that they were instructed by Florida state officials to match the names of people in Florida with Felons in order to knock them off the voter roles. They also knocked off 8000 people incorrectly off the voter roles who had committed misdemeanors, but were not felons. Also, it has been reported that in certain counties with high black populations the authorities threw away the votes, as happened in Gadsden County.
This story was first reported by Greg Palast and you can find it HERE.
If you have an alternate explanation I would like to hear it. |
OK. So I'm assuming that you are referring to disenfranchised purgelist black felons. You should know, first of all, that the purgelist only contained the names, age, gender, and race of convicted felons from other states, not of those convicted in the state of Florida. So, before you go blaming Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris, et.al., you should know that Florida Statute in effect in 2000 read as follows ( and be aware that it was enacted by the Florida Legislature ( not by Bush, not by Harris ). That statute was enacted in 1998 and read as follows:
------------------------------------------------------
Title IX
ELECTORS AND ELECTIONS Chapter 98
Registration Office, Officers, And Procedures View Entire Chapter
98.0975 Central voter file; periodic list maintenance.--
(1) By August 15, 1998, the division shall provide to each county supervisor of elections a list containing the name, address, date of birth, race, gender, and any other available information identifying the voter of each person included in the central voter file as a registered voter in the supervisor's county who:
(a) Is deceased;
(b) Has been convicted of a felony and has not had his or her civil rights restored; or
(c) Has been adjudicated mentally incompetent and whose mental capacity with respect to voting has not been restored.
(2) The division shall annually update the information required in subsection (1) and forward a like list to each supervisor by June 1 of each year.
(3)(a) In order to meet its obligations under this section, the division shall annually contract with a private entity to compare information in the central voter file with available information in other computer databases, including, without limitation, databases containing reliable criminal records and records of deceased persons.
(b) The entity contracted by the division is designated as an agent of the division for purposes of administering the contract, and must be limited to seeking only that information which is necessary for the division to meet its obligations under this section. Information obtained under this section may not be used for any purpose other than determining voter eligibility.
(4) Upon receiving the list from the division, the supervisor must attempt to verify the information provided. If the supervisor does not determine that the information provided by the division is incorrect, the supervisor must remove from the registration books by the next subsequent election the name of any person who is deceased, convicted of a felony, or adjudicated mentally incapacitated with respect to voting.
------------------------------------------------------
Two portions of the statute are noteworthy:
1) the statute stipulates that the division must annually "contract with a private entity to compare information in the central voter file with available information in other computer databases"
2) the statute stipulates that the local supervisor "must attempt to verify the information provided"
Database Technologies was the "private entity" selected in accordance with the provisions of the statute. And they did their job ( although it doesn't seem to me that the job they did was worth 23,000 dollars, let alone the 2.3 million dollars they were paid, but that's irrelevant to the issue ).
So, the REAL problem was with the local supervisors, who did not, or were unable to "verify the information provided" as required by law. As a result, eligible voters names were erroneously purged from the voter lists. Even so, consider this: the Miami Herald found that whites were twice as likely to be incorrectly placed on the list as blacks. |
I disagree. Thr REAL problem was that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, knowing that that purge list was mutliple integers larger than it should have been, went ahead and continued their sweetheart contract with the highly Republican-tied company which administered it. They knew exactly what they were doing, they did it, and they - to date - have got away with it.
It's called "Suppressing the Black Vote", and it stinks. |
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10/05/2004 10:33:40 AM · #19 |
According to this world-wide, informal, nonscientific internet poll, if you like George Bush and plan to vote for him.....well, you are pretty much alone, at least from a global perspective:
//www.betavote.com/vote/
(slow site!)
Message edited by author 2004-10-05 10:35:14. |
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10/05/2004 10:36:11 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by RonB:
No, it won't.
There won't be any butterfly ballots this time around.
There won't be any punch-card ballots, either.
Were there OTHER problems that you are referring to, as well? If so, please provide a list. |
Ya, the staff in charge of elections in FL. |
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10/05/2004 10:45:36 AM · #21 |
"The people who cast the votes don't matter; it is the people that
count the votes that matter." --Joseph Stalin
The people who program the computers that count the votes matter more. |
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10/05/2004 10:59:32 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by Digital Quixote:
"The people who cast the votes don't matter; it is the people that
count the votes that matter." --Joseph Stalin
The people who program the computers that count the votes matter more. |
Unless they have to deal with dimpled and hanging chads.
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10/05/2004 11:04:16 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by RonB:
So, the REAL problem was with the local supervisors, who did not, or were unable to "verify the information provided" as required by law. As a result, eligible voters names were erroneously purged from the voter lists. Even so, consider this: the Miami Herald found that whites were twice as likely to be incorrectly placed on the list as blacks. |
I disagree. Thr REAL problem was that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, knowing that that purge list was mutliple integers larger than it should have been, went ahead and continued their sweetheart contract with the highly Republican-tied company which administered it. They knew exactly what they were doing, they did it, and they - to date - have got away with it.
It's called "Suppressing the Black Vote", and it stinks. |
Sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but the error rate for Whites on the felon purge list ( 9.9% ) was nearly double that for African Americans listed in error ( 5.1% ).
The Civil Rights Commission did not hear from a single witness who was prevented from voting as a result of being erroneously identified as a felon. One witness did testify that he was erroneously removed from the voter list because he had been mistaken for another individual on the felon list whose name and birth date were practically identical to his. However, he was able to convince precinct officials that there had been a clerical error, and he was allowed to vote.
And the Commission completely ignored the bigger story: Approximately 5,600 felons voted illegally in Florida on November 7, approximately 68 percent of whom were registered Democrats. The Miami Herald discovered that, "among the felons who cast presidential ballots, there were "62 robbers, 56 drug dealers, 45 killers, 16 rapists, and 7 kidnappers. At least two who voted were pictured on the state's on-line registry of sexual offenders."
Furthermore, the Post found no more than 108 "law-abiding" citizens of all races that "were purged from the voter rolls as suspected criminals, only to be cleared after the election." In fact during all the various lawsuits against Florida, only two people testified they weren't allowed to vote because their names were mistakenly on the list.
The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division conducted a separate investigation of these charges and also came up empty. In a May 2002 letter to Democratic Senator Pat Leahy of Vermont, who at the time headed the Judiciary Committee, Assistant Attorney General Ralph Boyd wrote, "The Civil Rights Division found no credible evidence in our investigations that Floridians were intentionally denied their right to vote during the November 2000 election. |
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10/05/2004 12:47:52 PM · #24 |
Hi RonB
As it seems you got your information verbatim from the Glenn Beck Show, the overtly Christian right-wing conservative political talk show host, I will counter with first with Greg Palast, investigative reporter for the British Guardian and Observer papers, author of "The best democracy Money can Buy" and definitely AntiBushCo:
What really happened in Florida?
Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida’s voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you’re not on the list, you don’t get to vote.
If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you‘re “scrubbed” from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it’s an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.
My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime – except for being African American. We didn’t have to guess about that, because next to each voter’s name was their race.
When I questioned Harris’ office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, “Well, you know how many black people commit crimes.”
But these people weren’t felons, so why were they scrubbed?
The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile their felony “scrub” lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]
There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use their extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn’t. They didn’t use one of their 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.
So where did DBT get their data?
From the Internet. They went to 11 other states’ Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John “Buddy” Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.
Although DBT didn’t get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That’s how DBT earned its $2.3 million.
Why didn’t DBT use their own databases?
They didn’t, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.
Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.
Is this the only way votes were stolen?
No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Their votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris’ office illegally scrubbed people who’d served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush’s office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.
The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered “spoiled“ and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up – with approval from Bush and Harris – to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in eight ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.
The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was “spoiled.” What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren’t told that their votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren’t permitted to re-vote.
When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren’t well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn‘t. He didn’t even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way – they elected a black elections chief.
Seems Jimmy Carter agrees. Since the world apparantly trusts him to monitor election fraud in third world countries, and I have never heard even rabid right-wingers accuse him of dishonesty, perhaps his words have merit:
Carter warns of repeat election 'fraud' in Florida
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 28/09/2004)
Jimmy Carter, who has made a second career monitoring elections in world trouble spots, yesterday accused Florida Republicans of "brazenly" resisting efforts to clean up "fraudulent and biased electoral practices" that so marred the 2000 election in their state.
The former Democrat president offered a harsh verdict on Florida's prospects for a free and fair election this November, writing in the Washington Post that: "A repetition of the problems of 2000 seems likely."
Jimmy Carter: 'A repetition of 2000 seems likely'
Mr Carter pinned much of the blame on the state's Republican governor, Jeb Bush, younger brother of President George W Bush. He wrote that Jeb Bush, "naturally a strong supporter of his brother, has taken no steps to correct these departures from principles of fair and equal treatment or to prevent them in the future".
In 2000, Jeb Bush presided over an election system controlled by fiercely partisan Republican officials, Mr Carter wrote.
History was now repeating itself, he charged. In particular, Mr Carter denounced Mr Bush and aides for attempting, once again, to throw tens of thousands of black voters off the state's electoral roll, on the grounds that they were believed to be convicted criminals who had not yet regained their right to vote in clemency hearings.
In the 2000 election thousands of non-white voters were refused the right to vote because they were incorrectly included on a list of alleged felons, provided to election officials by the Republican state government.
This summer, Mr Bush's aides sent a similar list of alleged felons to local election officials. The list was once again found to contain thousands of incorrect names. It focused almost exclusively on black felons and ignored criminals from the Hispanic community, seen as more likely to vote Republican. The list was retracted.
Mr Carter described the latest row as "a fumbling attempt . . . to disqualify 22,000 African-American [likely Democrats], but only 61 Hispanics [likely Republicans], as alleged felons".
Mr Carter's words may anger as many Americans as they comfort, notably his incendiary comment that "basic international requirements for a fair election are missing in Florida".
Here is a recent article " FLORIDA QUIETLY ADMITS 2000 VOTE FRAUD", from the AP:
//www.truthout.com/docs_02/04.28A.Election.Fraud.htm
Just for fun, here is an expose article with smoking gun evidence that electronic voting fraud took place in Florida 2000 through the computers of Diebold, Inc, a notoriously corrupt and right-wing partisan-headed operation who, with four other like companies owns almost ALL of the e-vote systems in the country:
//www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles9/Thompson_Diebold-2000-Fraud.htm
The NAACP receives hundreds of complaints and reports of legitimate (black) voters being turned away from the polls, and as well voter intimidation:
//www.wsws.org/articles/2000/dec2000/flor-d13.shtml
Message edited by author 2004-10-05 13:09:09. |
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10/05/2004 12:59:28 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by RonB:
So, the REAL problem was with the local supervisors, who did not, or were unable to "verify the information provided" as required by law. As a result, eligible voters names were erroneously purged from the voter lists. Even so, consider this: the Miami Herald found that whites were twice as likely to be incorrectly placed on the list as blacks. |
I disagree. Thr REAL problem was that Jeb Bush and Katherine Harris, knowing that that purge list was mutliple integers larger than it should have been, went ahead and continued their sweetheart contract with the highly Republican-tied company which administered it. They knew exactly what they were doing, they did it, and they - to date - have got away with it.
It's called "Suppressing the Black Vote", and it stinks. |
Sorry to disappoint you, yet again, but the error rate for Whites on the felon purge list ( 9.9% ) was nearly double that for African Americans listed in error ( 5.1% ).
The Civil Rights Commission did not hear from a single witness who was prevented from voting as a result of being erroneously identified as a felon. One witness did testify that he was erroneously removed from the voter list because he had been mistaken for another individual on the felon list whose name and birth date were practically identical to his. However, he was able to convince precinct officials that there had been a clerical error, and he was allowed to vote. |
Oh, I see. So it really wasn't up to 40,000 out of the 173,000 people on that list, it was ONE? :D :D
The list that everybody agrees was full of people who should not have been in there, and classified by race? Which included at least one black elections supervisor? But now there was only ONE person truly disaffected? :D
[quote]And the Commission completely ignored the bigger story: Approximately 5,600 felons voted illegally in Florida on November 7, approximately 68 percent of whom were registered Democrats. The Miami Herald discovered that, "among the felons who cast presidential ballots, there were "62 robbers, 56 drug dealers, 45 killers, 16 rapists, and 7 kidnappers. At least two who voted were pictured on the state's on-line registry of sexual offenders."[/quote]
Those numbers add up to 200 people. Where is the other 5,400 supposed voting felons claimed by your talk show host?
Granted - there no doubt WERE some felons who voted in 2000 in Florida. The reason is that the felon purge list was so outrageously wrong that some county elections officers threw the damn thing out the window.
[quote]Furthermore, the Post found no more than 108 "law-abiding" citizens of all races that "were purged from the voter rolls as suspected criminals, only to be cleared after the election." In fact during all the various lawsuits against Florida, only two people testified they weren't allowed to vote because their names were mistakenly on the list.[/quote]
Oops, we're up to two people now. And yet that pesky number of 27,000 to 40,000 or so people who were on the list who never should have been, is a number I can't seem to get out of my head.
Greg Palast and staff looked at the list and found 90% of the names should not have been there. Correcting the list would have been easy - there were 12 databases with SS#'s, etc etc etc to cross reference with. But JEB BUSH and KATHERINE HARRIS actually told the data base company NOT to correct the list!!
[quote]The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division conducted a separate investigation of these charges and also came up empty. In a May 2002 letter to Democratic Senator Pat Leahy of Vermont, who at the time headed the Judiciary Committee, Assistant Attorney General Ralph Boyd wrote, "The Civil Rights Division found no credible evidence in our investigations that Floridians were intentionally denied their right to vote during the November 2000 election. [/quote]
Uhh...that wouldn't happen to be John Ashcroft's Justice Department, would it? ;)
Message edited by author 2004-10-05 13:10:20. |
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