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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Border legality and rules.
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06/19/2014 11:56:13 AM · #1
During the results of the Hidden Gem Challenge I questioned this photo when I saw it in my own mind. Then saw the results and knew it would get a request for validation. Seeing the photo and knowing what it takes to make it look as it does, I "knew" it wouldn't pass mustard with my understanding of the rules. Well according to Shannon it's been validated. So here is my question, based on his comment "Borders generally fall outside of the normal editing rules (you can't otherwise make selections in Basic, for example) as long as the frame is distinct and goes around the outside, and no text, clip art or other photographs were added"

My question is if this is the case why have so many photos been DQ'd for borders. IMHO this vehicle makes a selection on the paw then the background to it is removed and a drop shadow is added which adds something that didn't exist in the original capture.

The rules state "add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border." it says it must be distinct, and be added to the OUTSIDE of the entry. This clearly isn't outside of the entry, the entry overlaps the border and a shadow is added. IMHO this "border" becomes an item that the subject is stepping out of, and not a border on the entry.

I don't expect this to be changed to a DQ. But I would like an explanation of how the rules are applied here on breakout borders, when the rules don't state they are allowed.
06/19/2014 12:04:22 PM · #2
Very interested to see the discussion on this. I would have bet a moldy cheeseburger that this was DQ.
06/19/2014 12:09:13 PM · #3
Matt, I don't see anything that DISallows it, in the rules. And yes, it HAS been validated, during voting. We've had a number of breakout borders validated over the years. The drop shadow's not an issue for me because we're regularly allowing canned "creative" borders with the rough edges, the "fake photo emulsion" look, and so forth. A lot of those result in an irregular border. We've also validated wedge-shaped borders and so forth; it's pretty wide open.

Give us some examples of images DQ'd because of their borders? All I can recall are borders created from clip-art designs and such, which is not allowed, explicitly.

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 12:10:25.
06/19/2014 12:14:08 PM · #4
Bear the rules CLEARLY say that your border can be OUTSIDE the entry. Not become part of it(as it being the part that subject is now stepping out of), to me in essence that is creating a part of the capture that unlike a border that is outside of the entry, becomes part of the entry.

I have been searching for past DQ's that come to mind, but the search engine on this place stinks for this sort of search. As soon as I get some time I will.
06/19/2014 12:22:21 PM · #5
It IS "outside" the entry, the entry's just cut irregularly. As an irrelevant aside, we've allowed borders that use "inlines" before, and those have been allowed...
06/19/2014 12:26:37 PM · #6
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

It IS "outside" the entry, the entry's just cut irregularly. As an irrelevant aside, we've allowed borders that use "inlines" before, and those have been allowed...


So cutout sections of an entry are now allowed as long as they go outside on the border?
06/19/2014 12:31:53 PM · #7
From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May"
" add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."
From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May Not"
" add graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs to your entry or its border during editing (except for combining photos as allowed by the multiple capture rules above).
add text to your entry or its border during editing. This includes copyright statements."

In Shannon's picture, I clearly recognize it as a border, even though it overlaps the paw and some of the whiskers. I don't see text or copyright statements, and I don't see anything else that don't belong with the original photograph within the border as graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs; so IMHO it doesn't have any ground for DQ.
06/19/2014 12:39:22 PM · #8
Originally posted by Rgarcia:

From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May"
" add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."
From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May Not"
" add graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs to your entry or its border during editing (except for combining photos as allowed by the multiple capture rules above).
add text to your entry or its border during editing. This includes copyright statements."

In Shannon's picture, I clearly recognize it as a border, even though it overlaps the paw and some of the whiskers. I don't see text or copyright statements, and I don't see anything else that don't belong with the original photograph within the border as graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs; so IMHO it doesn't have any ground for DQ.


I clearly recognize this as a faded border not a vignette and yet it was DQ'd because the SC didn't think it was a border.
06/19/2014 12:43:53 PM · #9
It's been done before. Nobody even questioned the legality of the second example.


Here's one from BASIC editing. We didn't request an original on it, but a couple of people questioned the border and we voted 7-1 that it was legal.


Originally posted by MattO:

I clearly recognize this as a faded border not a vignette and yet it was DQ'd because the SC didn't think it was a border.

That was DQ'd for adding a vignette in Basic, whether you recognize it or not. The edges of the photo were simply darkened. "Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 12:52:39.
06/19/2014 12:53:30 PM · #10
As much as I hate to say it; I agree with Matt. I requested validation for this image during voting, certain that it would not pass. For me the edit removed portions of the image that changed my perception of the photo. Shannon said, "The leopard was really coming out of her den". After the edit, I would say, "The leopard is coming out of the frame." Also, without knowing that she was coming out of a den, it may have looked like she was just walking, not coming out of anything at all.

"
You may not:

... use ANY editing tool to move, remove or duplicate any element of your photograph that would change a typical viewer's description of the photograph (aside from color or crop), even if the tool is otherwise legal, and regardless of whether you intended the change when the photograph was taken.
"

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 12:57:41.
06/19/2014 12:59:57 PM · #11
i agree with Matt too..

there was an image not too long ago, i forget who and which challenge where the border was created from itself, essentially extending the image area..

i'll see if i can find it...
06/19/2014 01:01:55 PM · #12
Originally posted by scalvert:

It's been done before. Nobody even questioned the legality of the second example.


Here's one from BASIC editing. We didn't request an original on it, but a couple of people questioned the border and we voted 7-1 that it was legal.


Originally posted by MattO:

I clearly recognize this as a faded border not a vignette and yet it was DQ'd because the SC didn't think it was a border.

That was DQ'd for adding a vignette in Basic, whether you recognize it or not. The edges of the photo were simply darkened. "Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."


I'm actually okay with the train and the dandelion, because those are things that don't necessarily do anything that is out of the norm. A train goes down tracks. A dandelion, well, just grows. The triptych is a triptych, and the border doesn't make it look like the little girl is doing anything she's not.
06/19/2014 01:02:51 PM · #13
Originally posted by aliqui:

For me the edit removed portions of the image that changed my perception of the photo. Shannon said, "The leopard was really coming out of her den". After the edit, I would say, "The leopard is coming out of the frame." Also, without knowing that she was coming out of a den, it may have looked like she was just walking.



I don't see how the removal of the lower edge of the photo could change your perception of the leopard walking "out of the shadows". The leopard is clearly walking and there are clearly shadows behind it. During voting, you had no way of knowing whether it was coming out of it's den or just walking out of from under a shade tree.

To be honest, when Shannon showed it to our TPL group, I asked him about the legality of (simply because you don't see it often, an I'm honestly no expert on the rules). But reading the advanced editing rules, I see nothing that disallows it.

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 13:04:16.
06/19/2014 01:07:43 PM · #14
Originally posted by aliqui:

'You may not: ... use ANY editing tool to move, remove or duplicate any element of your photograph that would change a typical viewer's description of the photograph (aside from color or crop), even if the tool is otherwise legal, and regardless of whether you intended the change when the photograph was taken."

That rule refers to the image itself, not the border, and the leopard was coming out of a box-shaped door with a black background in the original anyway.

There are only a few restrictions on borders. In a nutshell, they must be distinct and clearly reognizable as a border, they must go around the image (after an uproar over this), and you can't add text or clip art. Other than that, as a few SC have noted before over the years, "What goes in the border stays in the border."
06/19/2014 01:09:34 PM · #15
Originally posted by scalvert:



There are only a few restrictions on borders. In a nutshell, they must be distinct and clearly reognizable as a border, they must go around the image (after an uproar over this), and you can't add text or clip art. Other than that, as a few SC have noted before over the years, "What goes in the border stays in the border."


explain this then...



if you can mask, erase, drop shadow your image to give it the appearance of an extra dimension you show be able to create a border like this with a heavy blur

the original image in this thread, the border doesn't go around, it goes under in parts.

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 13:13:19.
06/19/2014 01:15:29 PM · #16
Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by scalvert:



There are only a few restrictions on borders. In a nutshell, they must be distinct and clearly reognizable as a border, they must go around the image (after an uproar over this), and you can't add text or clip art. Other than that, as a few SC have noted before over the years, "What goes in the border stays in the border."


explain this then...



if you can mask, erase, drop shadow your image to give it the appearance of an extra dimension you show be able to create a border like this with a heavy blur

the original image in this thread, the border doesn't go around, it goes under in parts.


To me, it looks like new area (notice the clipped bird tail on the left side), made to look like part of the image. It changes my perception of the photo, making it look larger than it originally was.

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 13:17:46.
06/19/2014 01:19:37 PM · #17
Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by scalvert:



There are only a few restrictions on borders. In a nutshell, they must be distinct and clearly reognizable as a border, they must go around the image (after an uproar over this), and you can't add text or clip art. Other than that, as a few SC have noted before over the years, "What goes in the border stays in the border."


explain this then...



if you can mask, erase, drop shadow your image to give it the appearance of an extra dimension you show be able to create a border like this with a heavy blur

the original image in this thread, the border doesn't go around, it goes under in parts.


To me, it looks like new area (notice the clipped bird tail on the left side), made to look like part of the image. It changes my perception of the photo, making it look larger than it originally was.


And yet making the subject look like it's stepping out of a box doesn't?
06/19/2014 01:24:05 PM · #18
Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by LN13:

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by scalvert:



There are only a few restrictions on borders. In a nutshell, they must be distinct and clearly reognizable as a border, they must go around the image (after an uproar over this), and you can't add text or clip art. Other than that, as a few SC have noted before over the years, "What goes in the border stays in the border."


explain this then...



if you can mask, erase, drop shadow your image to give it the appearance of an extra dimension you show be able to create a border like this with a heavy blur

the original image in this thread, the border doesn't go around, it goes under in parts.


To me, it looks like new area (notice the clipped bird tail on the left side), made to look like part of the image. It changes my perception of the photo, making it look larger than it originally was.


And yet making the subject look like it's stepping out of a box doesn't?


No. It's clear that the leopard was walking out of darkness and part of the bottom edge was removed. In Mike's example, the border is made to fool you into believing it is part of the scene. I don't think anyone is fooled by Shannon's leopard.
06/19/2014 01:25:10 PM · #19
Originally posted by MattO:



And yet making the subject look like it's stepping out of a box doesn't?


again i agree with Matt. that border does way more to change my depiction of the image. how is creating a drop shadow not considered clip art or adding image area?
06/19/2014 01:33:15 PM · #20
Originally posted by LN13:

...I don't think anyone is fooled by Shannon's leopard.


No, I can clearly spot the foolishness ;-)

FWIW, I stopped on the leopard image for all of an extra 5 seconds or so when voting. It was clear that the border was a border, and that it did not contain any disallowed "graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs." Thus, it's legal.
06/19/2014 01:39:38 PM · #21
Borders are a crap shoot. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
06/19/2014 01:39:57 PM · #22
Originally posted by kirbic:

Originally posted by LN13:

...I don't think anyone is fooled by Shannon's leopard.


No, I can clearly spot the foolishness ;-)

FWIW, I stopped on the leopard image for all of an extra 5 seconds or so when voting. It was clear that the border was a border, and that it did not contain any disallowed "graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs." Thus, it's legal.


im not saying it should be illegal, i'd just like to know if that level of manipulation is allow why was pascals dq'd?

06/19/2014 01:41:51 PM · #23
Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by Rgarcia:

From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May"
" add a border to the outside edge of your entry. Your border must be distinct and clearly recognizable as a border."
From the Rules of Advanced Editing under "You May Not"
" add graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs to your entry or its border during editing (except for combining photos as allowed by the multiple capture rules above).
add text to your entry or its border during editing. This includes copyright statements."

In Shannon's picture, I clearly recognize it as a border, even though it overlaps the paw and some of the whiskers. I don't see text or copyright statements, and I don't see anything else that don't belong with the original photograph within the border as graphics, clip art, computer-rendered images or parts of other photographs; so IMHO it doesn't have any ground for DQ.


I clearly recognize this as a faded border not a vignette and yet it was DQ'd because the SC didn't think it was a border.


In this particular case I see added vignetting to mask the original picture in the upper corners, besides only the black border transitioning to the picture. I think it's different from Shannon's case.
06/19/2014 01:42:08 PM · #24
FWIW i'd like to see all borders not allowed

IMO, we have two images here greatly enhanced by the choice of border.
06/19/2014 01:43:50 PM · #25
Honestly I thought that leopard was a DQ as well. It looks like it's about to walk out from the picture thanks to the paw in the border. It makes the picture far more interesting for me. It definitely changes my perception of the picture.

Message edited by author 2014-06-19 13:45:03.
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