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01/15/2014 09:56:41 PM · #151
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I am "intolerant" of big-game trophy hunting for ego-gratification to the extent that I would never choose to participate in it myself, and that if I could unilaterally pass a world-wide law to ban it I would.

I agree the word is not particularly useful in this kind of discussion, which is partly why I was "intolerant" of your earlier post. :-)


I'm impressed you would pass a law to ban an activity that doesn't really affect you. I think it was GK Chesterton who said, "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."
01/15/2014 10:12:50 PM · #152
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I am "intolerant" of big-game trophy hunting for ego-gratification to the extent that I would never choose to participate in it myself, and that if I could unilaterally pass a world-wide law to ban it I would.

I agree the word is not particularly useful in this kind of discussion, which is partly why I was "intolerant" of your earlier post. :-)


I'm impressed you would pass a law to ban an activity that doesn't really affect you. I think it was GK Chesterton who said, "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."

I think perpetuation of the culture of machismo as evinced by killing for the sake of killing or to "prove ones bravery" or other such self-serving motive has the potential to affect me -- after all I might be standing around when some 12-year old with a sawed-off shotgun decides to settle a grudge ...
01/15/2014 10:46:40 PM · #153
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I am "intolerant" of big-game trophy hunting for ego-gratification to the extent that I would never choose to participate in it myself, and that if I could unilaterally pass a world-wide law to ban it I would.

I agree the word is not particularly useful in this kind of discussion, which is partly why I was "intolerant" of your earlier post. :-)


I'm impressed you would pass a law to ban an activity that doesn't really affect you. I think it was GK Chesterton who said, "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."


Surely you jest. Canon law deals with a myriad of things that does not affect most people and there are countless numbers of laws still on the books today that have nothing to do with reality and the world as it exists today.

One could argue that tolerance and conviction, in some instances, do not belong in the same realm of discussion. I know many people of conviction who are prone to judge, brand and subjugate others directly as a result of their convictions.

Ray
01/15/2014 11:02:05 PM · #154
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?


Honestly, I was following you up to here. But you've actually lost me now.

My question is simple. "Why?"
01/15/2014 11:07:53 PM · #155
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?


Honestly, I was following you up to here. But you've actually lost me now.

My question is simple. "Why?"


Because it's an endangered species. When they're gone, they're gone.

I'm trying to be clear, but I guess I'm not. If you want to hunt deer, or rats, or squirrels, or rabbit, or cockroaches for that matter, go ahead. I don't like the killing, but I won't try to talk you out of it. But don't wipe out a species for fun.
01/15/2014 11:16:29 PM · #156
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?


Honestly, I was following you up to here. But you've actually lost me now.

My question is simple. "Why?"


Because it's an endangered species. When they're gone, they're gone.

I'm trying to be clear, but I guess I'm not. If you want to hunt deer, or rats, or squirrels, or rabbit, or cockroaches for that matter, go ahead. I don't like the killing, but I won't try to talk you out of it. But don't wipe out a species for fun.


Ok, so it's just a misunderstanding then.

Lions aren't endangered.
01/15/2014 11:18:35 PM · #157
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?


You mentioned that members of your family hunt, but qualified it with something like "at least they eat what they kill". To be clear, my intention wasn't and isn't to single you out, others have posted the same sentiment earlier in this thread.

What if they didn't eat their kill? What if they just hunted to put creepy looking deer head trophies on the wall? What if they killed scores of predators that were threatening their livelihoods by killing their livestock?

01/15/2014 11:21:01 PM · #158
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?


Honestly, I was following you up to here. But you've actually lost me now.

My question is simple. "Why?"


Because it's an endangered species. When they're gone, they're gone.

I'm trying to be clear, but I guess I'm not. If you want to hunt deer, or rats, or squirrels, or rabbit, or cockroaches for that matter, go ahead. I don't like the killing, but I won't try to talk you out of it. But don't wipe out a species for fun.


Ok, so it's just a misunderstanding then.

Lions aren't endangered.


Estimating African lion (Panthera leo) populations with any accuracy is difficult [1] and involves many uncertainties. While the three main surveys to date all used different methods [2-4], it is widely accepted that lion populations in Africa are in serious decline [2, 5 – 8]. The IUCN states “A species population reduction of approximately 30% is suspected over the past two decades (approximately three lion generations)” [5]. Such declines appear to be continuing.

Lions are listed as Convention of International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) Appendix II and are regarded as ‘vulnerable’ by the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) Red List [Version 3.1 2001]. The criteria for classification being:

“An observed, estimated, inferred or suspected population size reduction of ≥ 30% over the last 10 years or three generations, whichever is the longer, where the reduction or its causes may not have ceased OR may not be understood OR may not be reversible, based on:

(a) direct observation
(b) an index of abundance appropriate to the taxon
(c) a decline in area of occupancy, extent of occurrence and/or quality of habitat
(d) actual or potential levels of exploitation”
01/15/2014 11:21:55 PM · #159
Yes, and all of that says "Lions are not endangered".

Selling hunting permits will not kill off the species. A boom in the value of a lion's pelt, however, probably would.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 23:23:06.
01/15/2014 11:26:42 PM · #160
Originally posted by Cory:

Yes, and all of that says "Lions are not endangered".

Selling hunting permits will not kill off the species. A boom in the value of a lion's pelt, however, probably would.


If you read that again, you'll see they are listed as endangered on one list and as vulnerable on another. There are less than 35,000 left in the wild. That's a pretty low number.

eta: Compare that to the 4 million estimated deer in Texas alone.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 23:29:02.
01/15/2014 11:34:26 PM · #161
Going to bed. Any more questions for me will have to keep until tomorrow. Good night!
01/15/2014 11:37:37 PM · #162
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Cory:

Yes, and all of that says "Lions are not endangered".

Selling hunting permits will not kill off the species. A boom in the value of a lion's pelt, however, probably would.


If you read that again, you'll see they are listed as endangered on one list and as vulnerable on another. There are less than 35,000 left in the wild. That's a pretty low number.


You've gotten confused here Kelli, but it's understandable given the name of that organization.

CITES listing does not imply a species is endangered, despite the name.

"Endangered Species" status is only given by the IUCN, and they have not given that status to lions.

There are authorities with no link to hunting who are perfectly willing to argue that hunting isn't harmful..

West African Lions on the other hand, may indeed be endangered I just take exception with using terminology wrong, since it does take away the impact of the meaning of the word when we apply it to species which are not, in fact, endangered.
01/15/2014 11:53:39 PM · #163
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I am "intolerant" of big-game trophy hunting for ego-gratification to the extent that I would never choose to participate in it myself, and that if I could unilaterally pass a world-wide law to ban it I would.

I agree the word is not particularly useful in this kind of discussion, which is partly why I was "intolerant" of your earlier post. :-)


I'm impressed you would pass a law to ban an activity that doesn't really affect you. I think it was GK Chesterton who said, "Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions."

I think perpetuation of the culture of machismo as evinced by killing for the sake of killing or to "prove ones bravery" or other such self-serving motive has the potential to affect me -- after all I might be standing around when some 12-year old with a sawed-off shotgun decides to settle a grudge ...


Dunno Paul. That's a pretty weak link. I can think of other topics where people are quick to dismiss links like that. I can leave you with your convictions though.

Take the Chesterton quote with a grain of salt. I'm not sure we should live our lives by it.
01/16/2014 07:03:32 AM · #164
//news.yahoo.com/hunter-to--consider-all-sides--after-spending--350k-to-kill-rare-rhino-161142978.html
01/16/2014 08:20:01 AM · #165
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Keli You have a catch and release mouse / bug program. You know that does not solve your problem. Mice reproduce like wildfire. There population needs to be thinned or you'll have a real prob. I am not suggesting putting poison out. I don't think that is humane but traps are quick & does the job nicely....
01/16/2014 08:36:09 AM · #166
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Keli You have a catch and release mouse / bug program. You know that does not solve your problem. Mice reproduce like wildfire. There population needs to be thinned or you'll have a real prob. I am not suggesting putting poison out. I don't think that is humane but traps are quick & does the job nicely....


LOL. I don't have bugs or mice. I just get the random field mouse in the fall and we choose to relocate them instead of killing them. The bugs my granddaughter usually brings in. I can't tell you how many fireflies were released into my living room over the course of the summer. And the usual random spider or stink bug of course.
01/16/2014 09:02:44 AM · #167
All mice and stink bugs are sentenced to death in my house. Spiders get to stay.
01/16/2014 09:42:49 AM · #168
Originally posted by LN13:

All mice and stink bugs are sentenced to death in my house. Spiders get to stay.


The only thing facing sure death around here are flies. I can't catch them, they won't shoo even when you open a door or window for them. So it's the fly swatter of death for them. The funny thing is, we have a number of snakes. They are fed mice. But because they are captive snakes, they need to be fed mice that are bought to prevent problems. And if the stink bugs get anywhere near the bearded dragon, they're toast too.
01/16/2014 12:20:22 PM · #169
Originally posted by LN13:

All mice and stink bugs are sentenced to death in my house. Spiders get to stay.


all of the above are sentenced to death. Spiders can die twice
01/16/2014 05:12:55 PM · #170
It would probably surprise most of you to learn that I save several mice per week from my cats and then drive them down to the river.

I also have a 'pet' woodrat which the cat was attacking(and being attacked by).. Unfortunately this one suffered an inner ear injury, and now goes in circles - so he lives with us now. (shy animals, but rather cute... However, his name is "Bitey" and there's a very good reason for that)

Spiders, except for black widows, get a free-pass and are usually relocated. Roaches die, flies die, centipedes become pets. (If you've never seen a 10" long desert centipede then you're missing out! Wicked vicious critters.)
01/16/2014 06:36:58 PM · #171
This thread needs pictures
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01/16/2014 06:50:36 PM · #172
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01/16/2014 07:19:46 PM · #173
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01/16/2014 07:46:47 PM · #174
To Save Threatened Owl, Another Species Is Shot
01/17/2014 01:47:38 PM · #175
Oh, the irony!
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