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01/15/2014 03:18:14 PM · #126
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Tell ya what's a problem around here: TURKEYS!

They are now a problem all over lots of them in the East Bay hills ... I heard recently that there are now more wild turkeys in the US than when Franklin proposed it as the national bird ...

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01/15/2014 03:29:18 PM · #127
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Tell ya what's a problem around here: TURKEYS! Seriously. They're all over the place, and they can be ferociously territorial, taking over peoples' yards and such, attacking cars that drive by, you name it. Last year there was a flock of them right across the street and next door, but those lots have been built on now so we'll see less of them. There's a couple flocks that act like they own the golf course, which I suppose is a reasonable attitude :-)


Happily, I know a few good ways to solve a turkey problem. ;)
01/15/2014 03:30:14 PM · #128
Originally posted by Kelli:


eta: I just did google it, and appears quite a large number of people do eat them. So if they're such a big problem why kill them and leave them to rot? Why not feed people?


Simple answer: Government regulations.

Essentially, you can't sell or give away meat that's not USDA approved.
01/15/2014 03:37:56 PM · #129
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:


eta: I just did google it, and appears quite a large number of people do eat them. So if they're such a big problem why kill them and leave them to rot? Why not feed people?


Simple answer: Government regulations.

Essentially, you can't sell or give away meat that's not USDA approved.

I'm pretty sure there are workarounds for that, in some states at least ... more importantly, I think if eating wild pig it needs to be thoroughly cooked to avoid the risk of trichinosis fortunately now a very rare disease (thanks to government regulations/inspections), since it's a painful way to die ...

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 15:38:15.
01/15/2014 03:47:31 PM · #130
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Kelli:


eta: I just did google it, and appears quite a large number of people do eat them. So if they're such a big problem why kill them and leave them to rot? Why not feed people?


Simple answer: Government regulations.

Essentially, you can't sell or give away meat that's not USDA approved.

I'm pretty sure there are workarounds for that, in some states at least ... more importantly, I think if eating wild pig it needs to be thoroughly cooked to avoid the risk of trichinosis fortunately now a very rare disease (thanks to government regulations/inspections), since it's a painful way to die ...


Tri-Chin-Osis? I thought you got that from eating too many hamburgers? ;)
01/15/2014 03:52:30 PM · #131
Originally posted by Cory:

Tri-Chin-Osis? I thought you got that from eating too many hamburgers? ;)

Excellent! Shall we work on a public-interest educational poster along this theme ... ?
01/15/2014 04:01:23 PM · #132
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I'm familiar with the situation.


Originally posted by Spork99:



There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.


You really do not have a clue! You can't even grasp the significance of a feral animal pest compared to the native endemic species and how the balance of these animals effects the ecology!


Oh, I do get it.

We have invasive species here...zebra mussels, Asian carp and, yes, feral hogs.

Coyotes harass and kill my uncle's livestock to the point that one year he offered me a $20 bounty for each coyote. I made nearly $1500 on that deal in one season. A good case for AR style rifles if ever there was one.

There are overpopulations of deer in suburbia, but God forbid you talk about culling that herd...You'd think you were killing Bambi's mother in front of a kindergarten class. They're "cute" and make people feel like they're living in the "wilderness". They don't understand that the deer population is like a refugee camp where disease and starvation are rampant. Of course if deer were somehow repellent like rats or other vermin, the same people would be willing to man a machine gun in order to wipe them out.

It's open season 24/7/365 on the pigs tho, but unlike the pigs I saw in the video, the ones here are much bigger and more dangerous. They're as likely to charge you as run away and they'll tear you up if they get a hold of you.


Obviously animal PR influences a lot of animal laws and politics. The cute and cuddly get a free pass even in humans and anything that's not an immediate danger will get away with breeding like mad. If feral pigs had more advocates then there would be a mad dash to protect them. And since they're ugly and pests they're not going to have luck (I initially assumed they could be eaten or fed to the dogs)

I'm pretty certain surplus animals are culled off in wildlife preserves. I remember a nat geo documentary where they showed elephants being shot in the head from a helicopter by the rangers themselves because their herds were getting too large. Their targets were the old and the infirm but it turned out to be mistake because without the old elephants' steady influence the young ones went berserk and started killing rhinos. In the end they started offing the more aggressive young. Within a legal limit I'm sure overpopulation is taken care of discreetly in other countries too although it depends on where you live and if the authorities care.

So, basically rangers do exactly what the photo op hunters do. The problem is money is exchanged and I don't trust people to do the right thing when money enters the picture. The canned hunt animals could be chosen at random, completely drugged and could be the animal that was more beneficial to the ecosystem.
01/15/2014 04:09:07 PM · #133
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I'm familiar with the situation.


Originally posted by Spork99:



There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.


You really do not have a clue! You can't even grasp the significance of a feral animal pest compared to the native endemic species and how the balance of these animals effects the ecology!


Oh, I do get it.

We have invasive species here...zebra mussels, Asian carp and, yes, feral hogs.

Coyotes harass and kill my uncle's livestock to the point that one year he offered me a $20 bounty for each coyote. I made nearly $1500 on that deal in one season. A good case for AR style rifles if ever there was one.

There are overpopulations of deer in suburbia, but God forbid you talk about culling that herd...You'd think you were killing Bambi's mother in front of a kindergarten class. They're "cute" and make people feel like they're living in the "wilderness". They don't understand that the deer population is like a refugee camp where disease and starvation are rampant. Of course if deer were somehow repellent like rats or other vermin, the same people would be willing to man a machine gun in order to wipe them out.

It's open season 24/7/365 on the pigs tho, but unlike the pigs I saw in the video, the ones here are much bigger and more dangerous. They're as likely to charge you as run away and they'll tear you up if they get a hold of you.


Just curious... where do you live that you have man eating pigs?


Here's a link to a story from 2009 about a 630lb hog that had chased a family. There was another incident where a ~ 500lb hog attacked and damaged a pickup truck.

Here's the Wanted Poster put out by the state government...

We have an estimated 6-7000 feral pigs here, but Texas has millions

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 16:14:30.
01/15/2014 04:23:50 PM · #134
Hey Spork - you forgot the links.
01/15/2014 04:36:53 PM · #135
Originally posted by Cory:

Hey Spork - you forgot the links.

Made from feral pig they'd indeed be "hot" links ... :-)
01/15/2014 05:46:58 PM · #136
man ya'll are makin me hungry
01/15/2014 06:30:49 PM · #137
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

man ya'll are makin me hungry


Me too, but I just can't bring myself to look at those poor veggies before I put them in the steamer... they look so defenceless. :O)

Ray
01/15/2014 06:45:37 PM · #138
Mmmmmmmm, bacon
01/15/2014 07:15:51 PM · #139
I am always surprised that some of the same individuals who wave the banner of social tolerance don't necessarily show tolerance for a social activity like this. Hunting, when done within reason, doesn't harm another human even indirectly (always a seemingly important qualification). I saw it called "disgusting" a few times above. Can one hold that position and still be tolerant or is that an intolerant word? Can someone enlighten me?
01/15/2014 07:32:53 PM · #140
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...
01/15/2014 07:47:47 PM · #141
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...


Really? This is the explanation? I used that as a hedging term in case someone said, "well, I really only consider it disgusting when someone hunts endangered baby seals while making little children watch".

I just want to know if it's possible to feel that hunting is "disgusting" while still showing "tolerance" to hunters? It may be entirely possible to do so. I just want to hear it from someone that we aren't employing some double standard here.
01/15/2014 07:47:57 PM · #142
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...


Exactly.

I'll explain it a little better than that if you want though. I'm not anti-hunting for food. I'm not anti-culling to keep the rest of a group of animals from starving to death. But I find trophy hunting disgusting, specifically when the animal is already at risk. There is nothing social about killing for pleasure. Tolerance is also not quite the word I think you are looking for. Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with. I'm forced to tolerate the behavior though I find it barbaric. And it does harm other human beings when something is hunted to the brink of extinction or beyond. Why are we overpopulated with deer? Because they have no predators left except man.
01/15/2014 07:51:25 PM · #143
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...


Exactly.

I'll explain it a little better than that if you want though. I'm not anti-hunting for food. I'm not anti-culling to keep the rest of a group of animals from starving to death. But I find trophy hunting disgusting, specifically when the animal is already at risk. There is nothing social about killing for pleasure. Tolerance is also not quite the word I think you are looking for. Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with. I'm forced to tolerate the behavior though I find it barbaric. And it does harm other human beings when something is hunted to the brink of extinction or beyond. Why are we overpopulated with deer? Because they have no predators left except man.


eta: For the record, I also find eating boogies to be disgusting. Is that intolerant?
01/15/2014 07:54:53 PM · #144
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...


Exactly.

I'll explain it a little better than that if you want though. I'm not anti-hunting for food. I'm not anti-culling to keep the rest of a group of animals from starving to death. But I find trophy hunting disgusting, specifically when the animal is already at risk. There is nothing social about killing for pleasure. Tolerance is also not quite the word I think you are looking for. Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with. I'm forced to tolerate the behavior though I find it barbaric. And it does harm other human beings when something is hunted to the brink of extinction or beyond. Why are we overpopulated with deer? Because they have no predators left except man.


So would you consider yourself "tolerant" of hunting for sport (ie. not for a utilitarian reason)? I understand you disagree with it and find it gross (hey, I mainly agree with you), but are you "tolerant"? Maybe you just consider yourself to be "intolerant" and this is a situation it's worth being intolerant over. I know you are forced to tolerate it because it's legal, but I'm not concerned about that. If you wound up in a conversation with a trophy hunter and the topic came up, what do you do? Do you just bite your tongue? Do you say something, but still consider yourself "tolerant"? Do you let him have it in the name of "intolerance"?

BTW, you weren't the only user of the word, so I'm not somehow singling you out. Just wanted you to know that.
01/15/2014 08:02:59 PM · #145
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

... but are you "tolerant"?

Unless we are standing guard over the animals personally or actively legislating their protection, we all "tolerate" this and all kinds of things, even though we may find them abhorrent, given that true refusal to "tolerate" the action would likely lead to arrest or death.

Do you "tolerate" cigarette smoking in your waiting room? How about in the world?
01/15/2014 08:06:42 PM · #146
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Can someone enlighten me?

Sure there is no universal definition of "within reason" ...


Exactly.

I'll explain it a little better than that if you want though. I'm not anti-hunting for food. I'm not anti-culling to keep the rest of a group of animals from starving to death. But I find trophy hunting disgusting, specifically when the animal is already at risk. There is nothing social about killing for pleasure. Tolerance is also not quite the word I think you are looking for. Tolerance: the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with. I'm forced to tolerate the behavior though I find it barbaric. And it does harm other human beings when something is hunted to the brink of extinction or beyond. Why are we overpopulated with deer? Because they have no predators left except man.


So would you consider yourself "tolerant" of hunting for sport (ie. not for a utilitarian reason)? I understand you disagree with it and find it gross (hey, I mainly agree with you), but are you "tolerant"? Maybe you just consider yourself to be "intolerant" and this is a situation it's worth being intolerant over. I know you are forced to tolerate it because it's legal, but I'm not concerned about that. If you wound up in a conversation with a trophy hunter and the topic came up, what do you do? Do you just bite your tongue? Do you say something, but still consider yourself "tolerant"? Do you let him have it in the name of "intolerance"?

BTW, you weren't the only user of the word, so I'm not somehow singling you out. Just wanted you to know that.


Yes, I am tolerant of the sport hunter. There are even a number of them in my extended family. Though to be fair to them, they always eat what they kill. But some have mounted deer heads which I find creepy. I just choose not to talk about it with them. I don't eat wild animals, and will not cook them for my husband who will eat them but not kill them. In my house, we even catch & release mice and most bugs (if we can catch them). No spring traps here. So if I personally knew someone that wanted to go to Africa to kill a lion or elephant just for the thrill of it I probably wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut about it.
01/15/2014 08:23:49 PM · #147
Fair enough Kelli. Thanks for the response.

Paul, I think we're conflating definitions of "tolerant". I'm speaking in an ethical or moral sense and was just curious if one can be "tolerant" of something they are ethically or morally opposed to and what that looks like. Frankly, I think the word is not very useful in society because it doesn't mean a lot. People generally use "tolerant" as a weapon against someone that disagrees with something they support (eg. "You need to be more tolerant of such and such!") but then they turn around and act exactly the same when it comes to something they disagree with. (Usually there will be some subtle nuance claimed why their behavior is defensible.)

So it may be more of the same here in this thread, or there may be something I just don't get. I was open to an explanation. Personally I think someone can be ethically opposed to something (even strongly) and yet remain "tolerant" in the manner they express their opposition. It may be perfectly reasonable to be ethically opposed to trophy hunting, but how we convey and express ourselves is always important.
01/15/2014 08:35:33 PM · #148
I am "intolerant" of big-game trophy hunting for ego-gratification to the extent that I would never choose to participate in it myself, and that if I could unilaterally pass a world-wide law to ban it I would.

I agree the word is not particularly useful in this kind of discussion, which is partly why I was "intolerant" of your earlier post. :-)
01/15/2014 09:30:48 PM · #149
I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?
01/15/2014 09:41:23 PM · #150
Originally posted by Spork99:

I've seen it posted here that certain people only find hunting acceptable if the hunter consumes the kill. Why? Does that somehow justify an act you would otherwise find abhorrent?


Even if you were to eat the lion, I wouldn't approve. Does that help?
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