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01/14/2014 01:50:49 PM · #101
Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.


But, that's not really in any way getting exposed to the culture... That's like me saying I got drunk with frenchmen a few times in Miami, so I must understand their culture - not exactly a fair assessment.
01/14/2014 01:54:41 PM · #102
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.


But, that's not really in any way getting exposed to the culture... That's like me saying I got drunk with frenchmen a few times in Miami, so I must understand their culture - not exactly a fair assessment.


What would be the best way to understand a drunken Frenchman? I've never got to the bottom of that one yet.
01/14/2014 02:26:35 PM · #103
Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.


But, that's not really in any way getting exposed to the culture... That's like me saying I got drunk with frenchmen a few times in Miami, so I must understand their culture - not exactly a fair assessment.


What would be the best way to understand a drunken Frenchman? I've never got to the bottom of that one yet.


Take them hunting.
01/14/2014 02:53:47 PM · #104
Originally posted by Cory:


Cute Don, and quite clever, even if you've managed to walk right past the larger picture here.

Killing is something we all do... Torturing animals is pretty much universally seen as wrong, whereas killing is not subject to that same view across the majority of the globe. I'm also dismayed by the fur industry that strips the hide of of living animals, and then allows them to die a slow agonizing death in dumpsters filled with other poor beasts stripped of their hides, or any practice which inflicts unnecessary pain on animals... And that includes (especially!) hunters who shoot the animals in such a careless manner as to only wound the creature, leading to a slow painful death.


Torturing animals is not universally seen as wrong. Cannibalism and incest are the biggest taboos, but those are not universally seen as wrong, either.

Your "larger picture" does not exist. We each decide where to draw the line, and when a practice can be banned even if it is part of a "culture."
01/14/2014 03:20:43 PM · #105
Originally posted by posthumous:


...
Your "larger picture" does not exist. We each decide where to draw the line, and when a practice can be banned even if it is part of a "culture."


Yes. And this was the point of the original post. Paul was asking who are we that we can do this kind of hunting/gloating, what is it about us that decides NOT to draw a line. At least I think that was the point. (It was not American bashing, only that we Americans so lavishly provide examples of excess of one kind or another). Or, how is it that we DO draw a line? Or even, do we draw a line at all?

Not that there are definitive answers, just that we can raise the question...

Message edited by author 2014-01-14 15:21:24.
01/14/2014 04:01:09 PM · #106
An Aussie hero... ;)

Frankly, that looks like a reasonably enjoyable job to me. Do feel free to disagree.
01/14/2014 06:01:18 PM · #107
how is it that we DO draw a line? Or even, do we draw a line at all?


This is when we draw the line. When they are all gone.
Golden toad (1989)
Zanzibar Leopard (1996)
Po'ouli (2004)<--bird
Madeiran large white (2007)<--butterfly
Pyrenean Ibex (2000)
West African black rhino (2006)
Javan Tiger (1979)
Spix's Macaw (2004)<-- none left in wild
01/14/2014 06:26:22 PM · #108
but the funny thing is that this is about us. we are drawing lines without even thinking.
01/14/2014 09:07:27 PM · #109
Originally posted by Cory:

An Aussie hero... ;)

Frankly, that looks like a reasonably enjoyable job to me. Do feel free to disagree.


An Aussie hero preventing environmental damage by culling an introduced feral pest and being paid for it! This is a far cry from the original post of a foreigner tourist paying to kill native animals for the fun of it!!...... Big difference :)
01/14/2014 10:17:01 PM · #110
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Cory:

An Aussie hero... ;)

Frankly, that looks like a reasonably enjoyable job to me. Do feel free to disagree.


An Aussie hero preventing environmental damage by culling an introduced feral pest and being paid for it! This is a far cry from the original post of a foreigner tourist paying to kill native animals for the fun of it!!...... Big difference :)


Killing an animal is killing an animal. What did the pig do to deserve death that the lion didn't? They're both animals. Would it be OK if the hunter were killing lions in Australia, because they're not native there?

In Texas, people pay to kill feral hogs because it's fun, what's the moral difference between that and killing a lion on a similar hunt in Africa? In both cases, the hunters enjoy the kill, the "hunting" is a far cry from stalking a dangerous beast on foot through the bush (as some have suggested is the ONLY legitimate way to hunt), the state sanctions the killing of the animals, the prey isn't eaten ( which some have suggested be the ONLY valid reason to hunt). So, what's the difference? Is it because the lion is a more aesthetically pleasing animal that humans anthropomorphize giving it "noble" characteristics, while the pig is a dirty pig? What if the hunter were shooting rats in Africa?

01/14/2014 10:32:30 PM · #111
And Spork takes the bait.

:D

I knew someone would jump on that bandwagon fast enough, "Killing is killing"... "What did the piggy do to deserve death?"

But of course, he actually follows that up with some very valid points - what is the difference? I think that through this thread we've established that this is a rather interesting issue, if only because we are all so different where we draw this line.

I honestly don't know that I can objectively say what is right and what is wrong - all I can say is that the benefits and the negatives (even potential negatives) should be weighed and wherever that balance ends up I figure is the 'right' decision.

Now, does anyone know where I can apply for a job in Australia hunting hogs? I could do with a year of that.
01/15/2014 02:16:37 AM · #112
Originally posted by Spork99:



Killing an animal is killing an animal. What did the pig do to deserve death that the lion didn't?


Best you take the time to familiarize yourself with some of the problems that Australia has had to cope with because of animals introduced to their country before making such a generalized statement.

There is a difference between the two scenarios... a monumental one.

Ray

01/15/2014 02:52:36 AM · #113
In the OP I wasn't condemning killing animals per se, nor even hunting in legitimate circumstances (pest control, population control, food, etc). I was condemning only the recreational hunting done for no reason beyond self-gratification. Which is what the two links in the OP are.

In a later post I made the further point that this kind of canned big game hunting isn't even really hunting at all. It's a feeble self-delusion. And we all agree on that, it seems.

I regret having been unfair to Americans by generalising about the issue, and I apologise for it. Americans are indeed only a bit over 50% of the offenders, in my part of the world (though they are also less than 0.1% of those present, in my part of the world). They just seem more disposed than others to making a gauche public celebration of the 'big game hero' bullshit; due to being more celebrity conscious, probably. I admire pretty much everything about Americans, except for the silly bloody gun stuff. Which is yet another generalisation I suppose.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 06:17:29.
01/15/2014 11:32:18 AM · #114
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spork99:



Killing an animal is killing an animal. What did the pig do to deserve death that the lion didn't?


Best you take the time to familiarize yourself with some of the problems that Australia has had to cope with because of animals introduced to their country before making such a generalized statement.

There is a difference between the two scenarios... a monumental one.

Ray


I'm familiar with the situation. I'm simply putting the question to the people here who are condemning hunting that's not for food, or isn't sufficiently "dangerous" for the hunter to justify their stance. Why is killing a cockroach or some "nuisance" animal more acceptable than killing a lion?

FWIW, I've killed animals for food, for sport, for money etc. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't get the "it's OK to kill a rat, but not ok to kill a 'noble beast' mindset".
01/15/2014 11:35:03 AM · #115
Originally posted by ubique:



In a later post I made the further point that this kind of canned big game hunting isn't even really hunting at all. It's a feeble self-delusion. And we all agree on that, it seems.



So what's the difference between the kind of hunting in your OP and what was shown in the video of hunting pigs or in going to Texas and hiring a helicopter to shoot as many wild pigs as possible from the air?
01/15/2014 12:16:50 PM · #116
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by ubique:



In a later post I made the further point that this kind of canned big game hunting isn't even really hunting at all. It's a feeble self-delusion. And we all agree on that, it seems.



So what's the difference between the kind of hunting in your OP and what was shown in the video of hunting pigs or in going to Texas and hiring a helicopter to shoot as many wild pigs as possible from the air?


Pigs are hardly in danger of going extinct. There's a demand for them whereas who wants lions? My great grandfather used to hunt tigers in forests when there were thousands. Now there are none. I doubt he would have carried on if he had realized the damage he was doing (although the locals obviously were the ones more zealous about getting tigers off their land. Tigers were their nuisance animal). Disturbing ecosystems is going to help no one in the future which is the basic reason why I don't care for hunting as a sport. If there's a surplus, fine, but if it's hunting of an animal that could potentially die out I couldn't even think about it.

Canned hunting is a bit pathetic and sad. If that's hunting then so is running after chickens in the backyard and wringing their necks. All the hunters I know would point and laugh. It has none of the 'prestige' snobby hunters believe in.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 12:19:33.
01/15/2014 01:32:58 PM · #117
Originally posted by UrfaK:

Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by ubique:



In a later post I made the further point that this kind of canned big game hunting isn't even really hunting at all. It's a feeble self-delusion. And we all agree on that, it seems.



So what's the difference between the kind of hunting in your OP and what was shown in the video of hunting pigs or in going to Texas and hiring a helicopter to shoot as many wild pigs as possible from the air?


Pigs are hardly in danger of going extinct. There's a demand for them whereas who wants lions? ...


There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 13:36:34.
01/15/2014 01:57:39 PM · #118
Originally posted by Spork99:

I'm familiar with the situation.


Originally posted by Spork99:



There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.


You really do not have a clue! You can't even grasp the significance of a feral animal pest compared to the native endemic species and how the balance of these animals effects the ecology!
01/15/2014 02:03:38 PM · #119
The truth of the matter is the leading cause of extinctions has been loss of habitat, not some fat American with a gun.
But that's here nor there.
I've had similar conversations many times before but about whales and whaling not big cats. The person I was speaking with was married to a Japanese woman, spent lots of time in Japan and was all for whaling. As much as I'm against such a practice he did bring up some good points. He said things like "If whaling is properly managed and regulated then it's no different than any gamefish". Is the Whale really more important than the Krill or a bass? Is the Lion really more important than the Warthog?

This thing is really MUCH bigger than some fat, pompous American shooting a Lion from the back seat of a jeep.
It's about balance and we think we are smart enough to keep the balance through culling, hunting limits, removal, etc. The problem is if we're not smart enough we can make things worse.

What I would like to see is an off limits list. Basically a FREE PASS. I don't care what animal it is just say Lion for instance. Then that's it no more hunting for Lions. Then add another, then another....
This is a HUGE pipe dream but something like this whould be nice to see in my lifetime.
01/15/2014 02:35:02 PM · #120
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I'm familiar with the situation.


Originally posted by Spork99:



There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.


You really do not have a clue! You can't even grasp the significance of a feral animal pest compared to the native endemic species and how the balance of these animals effects the ecology!


Oh, I do get it.

We have invasive species here...zebra mussels, Asian carp and, yes, feral hogs.

Coyotes harass and kill my uncle's livestock to the point that one year he offered me a $20 bounty for each coyote. I made nearly $1500 on that deal in one season. A good case for AR style rifles if ever there was one.

There are overpopulations of deer in suburbia, but God forbid you talk about culling that herd...You'd think you were killing Bambi's mother in front of a kindergarten class. They're "cute" and make people feel like they're living in the "wilderness". They don't understand that the deer population is like a refugee camp where disease and starvation are rampant. Of course if deer were somehow repellent like rats or other vermin, the same people would be willing to man a machine gun in order to wipe them out.

It's open season 24/7/365 on the pigs tho, but unlike the pigs I saw in the video, the ones here are much bigger and more dangerous. They're as likely to charge you as run away and they'll tear you up if they get a hold of you.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 14:36:11.
01/15/2014 02:42:51 PM · #121
Originally posted by Spork99:

Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Spork99:

I'm familiar with the situation.


Originally posted by Spork99:



There's a demand for the pigs?

The feral pigs in the video Cory posted are left to rot. In the US, the dead ones are removed to prevent attracting scavengers, but no one eats them (the meat is pretty horrible) or uses them for anything.

If you consider the value of whatever is produced from the animal being hunted as justification for killing the animal, the lion hunt, since the animal will be mounted and displayed as a trophy, has a greater value than just killing dozens of pigs that will be just left to decay.


You really do not have a clue! You can't even grasp the significance of a feral animal pest compared to the native endemic species and how the balance of these animals effects the ecology!


Oh, I do get it.

We have invasive species here...zebra mussels, Asian carp and, yes, feral hogs.

Coyotes harass and kill my uncle's livestock to the point that one year he offered me a $20 bounty for each coyote. I made nearly $1500 on that deal in one season. A good case for AR style rifles if ever there was one.

There are overpopulations of deer in suburbia, but God forbid you talk about culling that herd...You'd think you were killing Bambi's mother in front of a kindergarten class. They're "cute" and make people feel like they're living in the "wilderness". They don't understand that the deer population is like a refugee camp where disease and starvation are rampant. Of course if deer were somehow repellent like rats or other vermin, the same people would be willing to man a machine gun in order to wipe them out.

It's open season 24/7/365 on the pigs tho, but unlike the pigs I saw in the video, the ones here are much bigger and more dangerous. They're as likely to charge you as run away and they'll tear you up if they get a hold of you.


Just curious... where do you live that you have man eating pigs?
01/15/2014 02:54:25 PM · #122
Originally posted by Kelli:

Just curious... where do you live that you have man eating pigs?

Feral hogs are notoriously aggressive and territorial. They are very dangerous animals. They're very smart (pigs tend to be) and are reverting back to the ways of their wild boar ancestors, some of the most feared animals Europeans used to hunt. They're not "eating" humans though, just charging them and wreaking havoc.

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 14:55:05.
01/15/2014 03:07:04 PM · #123
The wildlife fish and game here has an open season (year round) on feral pigs. They say if you see one...shoot it.
01/15/2014 03:10:10 PM · #124
Tell ya what's a problem around here: TURKEYS! Seriously. They're all over the place, and they can be ferociously territorial, taking over peoples' yards and such, attacking cars that drive by, you name it. Last year there was a flock of them right across the street and next door, but those lots have been built on now so we'll see less of them. There's a couple flocks that act like they own the golf course, which I suppose is a reasonable attitude :-)
01/15/2014 03:11:18 PM · #125
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Kelli:

Just curious... where do you live that you have man eating pigs?

Feral hogs are notoriously aggressive and territorial. They are very dangerous animals. They're very smart (pigs tend to be) and are reverting back to the ways of their wild boar ancestors, some of the most feared animals Europeans used to hunt. They're not "eating" humans though, just charging them and wreaking havoc.


I knew they would eat a dead person (or anything dead), but I didn't think they were attacking and killing people first. I thought that's what he was implying. And why can't they be eaten? Isn't that what our ancestors did with them? I guess I should google it. :D

eta: I just did google it, and appears quite a large number of people do eat them. So if they're such a big problem why kill them and leave them to rot? Why not feed people?

Message edited by author 2014-01-15 15:16:13.
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