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01/12/2014 07:10:38 PM · #76
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Well I just came across this thread....Personally I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I myself am a hunter. However, I generally eat what I kill. I assume that lion is edible. I would also assume that these stars were properly licensed to go hunting in Africa. Licenses can be very expensive especially if the animal is endangered or threatened. Then that money goes into protection. So again I see nothing wrong


Given the opportunity Adam, at no cost to you, would you partake in a lion hunt in Africa? No eating, no license fee - but sanctioned - would you do it just for recreation?


prob not...I believe in the preservation....not the decimation of a species. Lions are not endangered yet but they are close. The money raised on these hunts saves countless animals


Good to hear Adam. I have to say though, no one is stopping those folks making a donation instead!


I wonder how much of that money actually was spent on preservation of the species..
01/13/2014 04:47:31 AM · #77
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Paul:



Good to hear Adam. I have to say though, no one is stopping those folks making a donation instead!


Wouldn't it be neat if the world actually worked like that?


But it does, Cory: the largest private benefactors of African wildlife conservation are individuals for whom recreational hunting is abhorrent.

The winning bidder of the "kill a black rhino" auction in the USA (referenced earlier by Clive) could cover himself in glory by paying the money and then electing to not shoot the animal. If the particular animal selected for this execution must indeed die for the reasons stated, then the auction winner could fly to Namibia and watch a conservation staffer destroy that rhino. He could take photographs before and after the execution, and post them on Facebook ... to highlight the sense of desolation and loss that even a 'necessary' culling of such a creature involves. Guess which Facebook post would garner the most 'likes'; that one, or the OP kind.

FYI the black rhino was pretty much saved from extinction some years ago by the efforts of the Hluhluwe-Imfolozi game reserve in Kwa-Zulu Natal. Nobody involved found it necessary to kill a black rhino for personal gratification.

Message edited by author 2014-01-13 04:55:40.
01/13/2014 09:58:44 AM · #78
As I see it, the president is selling these permits, and has every right to do so... The suggestion that it would be smarter to not take in over a quarter of a million dollars of revenue, that it would be better to simply pay an employee to go shoot the animal, demonstrates a fairly strange, or poor, grasp of economics- regardless of who the biggest donors are.

The suggestion that it's somehow more glorious to let someone else do the killing for you is.... Well, let's just say it doesn't at all line up with my values.

In any case, I'm a hell of a lot more worried about us destroying the larger environment by dumping chemicals, polluting the air, overfishing the oceans, the destruction of the rainforest, the rate of amphibian losses, etc. I find it VERY hard to get worked up at all over a single fricken black-rhino or a lion - there really are much more important and worrisome problems out there which you should be concerned about.
01/13/2014 11:48:10 AM · #79
The myth of trophy hunting as conservation. The article is completely one sided, but it's the best researched thing I could find from either side when I googled "how much hunting fees conservation Africa".

The TL;DR version...

* The amount of money that goes to conservation from hunting is utterly dwarfed by the amount that comes from ecotourism.
* Very little of the fees that the hunters pay (5% ish) actually goes to either conservation or the local communities.
* Its the white Africans who benefit the most and are working hardest to preserve the status quo.

The best thing I found from the pro trophy hunting side was from one of the groups that collects fees and takes people on hunts, that said that the fees went towards "fence building and repair." Given what labor rates are in the African bush, either there are a lot of fences, or not much of the money is getting to the places it needs to go.

Personally, while I think trophy hunting is appalling, I basically agree with Cory (did I just say that?). Africa has more important things to work on (elephant and gorilla poaching, to name two). I also think that the African countries where this is happening are sovereign countries that need to solve the problem themselves.
01/13/2014 12:17:46 PM · #80
Originally posted by Cory:

I'm a hell of a lot more worried about us destroying the larger environment by dumping chemicals, polluting the air, overfishing the oceans, the destruction of the rainforest, the rate of amphibian losses, etc.


I agree to the extent that this is the most serious problem facing humans today.
01/14/2014 03:34:07 AM · #81
Cory, you really are being so relentlessly obtuse that I think you are doing it just for the love of the exchange :)

Let's try this: put aside my own philosophical objection to the killing of animals for recreation. Consider the thing on purely macho terms. The Hemingway position.

Canned hunting of African animals does not, in spite of Hemingway's majestically written bullshit, demonstrate any skill as a hunter; no bushmanship, no physical prowess or endurance, nor even any notable marksmanship. It's easy, and not at all dangerous.

The rhino can barely see. It will charge if alarmed, but if you stay still it will almost certainly simply rush on by you. The canned hunting client doesn't have to track it, nor stalk it. The minders will simply drive you into a position where the animal is unaware of your presence, and where you can't miss. You might just as well shoot a dairy cow, for all you'll prove about yourself by shooting a rhino.

Lions are even easier. They doze under a tree most of the time, and are rarely alarmed by vehicles approaching closely. In this past week I could easily have shot at least a dozen lions in the wild, using no more stalking skill than driving a 4x4, and no more marksmanship than is required at a carnival shooting gallery. Less, actually.

I can accept that trekking alone into the mountains for a week hunting a bighorn does require both skill and marksmanship. Same with going on foot out into the desert to stalk whatever elusive and wily critters you have in the south west. Same with fly fishing a backwoods stream for brown trout (which I admit to having done). But shooting lions and rhinos at what is in reality an African theme park is simply pitiful. That's not hunting, nor is it even shooting. It's just an infantile self-indulgence, and it demeans all of humanity.

P.S. I still despise recreational hunting, even when it's hard.

Message edited by author 2014-01-14 03:57:48.
01/14/2014 04:18:12 AM · #82
Originally posted by Ann:

The myth of trophy hunting as conservation. The article is completely one sided, but it's the best researched thing I could find from either side when I googled "how much hunting fees conservation Africa"....

An excellent linked article, Ann. It's not even, as you suggest, especially 'one sided'. It's accurate and well reasoned. Thank you.
01/14/2014 04:44:12 AM · #83
Originally posted by ubique:

Cory, you really are being so relentlessly obtuse that I think you are doing it just for the love of the exchange :)

Let's try this: put aside my own philosophical objection to the killing of animals for recreation. Consider the thing on purely macho terms. The Hemingway position.

Canned hunting of African animals does not, in spite of Hemingway's majestically written bullshit, demonstrate any skill as a hunter; no bushmanship, no physical prowess or endurance, nor even any notable marksmanship. It's easy, and not at all dangerous.

The rhino can barely see. It will charge if alarmed, but if you stay still it will almost certainly simply rush on by you. The canned hunting client doesn't have to track it, nor stalk it. The minders will simply drive you into a position where the animal is unaware of your presence, and where you can't miss. You might just as well shoot a dairy cow, for all you'll prove about yourself by shooting a rhino.

Lions are even easier. They doze under a tree most of the time, and are rarely alarmed by vehicles approaching closely. In this past week I could easily have shot at least a dozen lions in the wild, using no more stalking skill than driving a 4x4, and no more marksmanship than is required at a carnival shooting gallery. Less, actually.

I can accept that trekking alone into the mountains for a week hunting a bighorn does require both skill and marksmanship. Same with going on foot out into the desert to stalk whatever elusive and wily critters you have in the south west. Same with fly fishing a backwoods stream for brown trout (which I admit to having done). But shooting lions and rhinos at what is in reality an African theme park is simply pitiful. That's not hunting, nor is it even shooting. It's just an infantile self-indulgence, and it demeans all of humanity.

P.S. I still despise recreational hunting, even when it's hard.


I agree. If hunting is good for the economy and there can be made a good argument for it, then the hunting must be hunting, not killing. The hunters must be dropped off in the middle of nowhere armed with their rifle, survival items, knife and a ranger or two. The hunter must track down the victim him or herself (on foot) and receive no help from the rangers. The ranger must only be there in the event that the hunter gets mauled, so that they can call in help, or so that when the hunter has made the kill he/her can be helped to do what is necessary to make sure the animal is dead and the trophy isn't spoiled. The rifle must not have a telescopic sight - if it did, it would be dangerous anyway. That's hunting, and worth the story (although animal killing is not worth anything unless it's to eat, to cul or to kill mercifully).

I would rather (and would love to) be dropped off as mentioned above to track down the animals and watch them alive. I much prefer seeing animals alive in their natural environment rather than dead on my wall, thanks.
01/14/2014 05:26:33 AM · #84
If someone or someones family were hungry, then one could understand the need to hunt, however i have great difficulty understanding how someone could pull the trigger on an animal without being hungry. It all boils down to motivation and i fear ubique is correct, there is no humanity behind the motivation here, just huge egos that can't feel compasion beyond their own small realities. We should pity them as much as the poor animals, what they do to them, they do to themselves. People like them should embark on a truly brave and great adventure and try and sound the depths of their own inner fears, looking inwards and trying to see the real motives behind their killing frenzy would be a million times harder, chicken shits never do that though.

01/14/2014 11:32:50 AM · #85
Originally posted by ubique:

....


My point has nothing to do with whether this is right or wrong, my point was entirely that this is not exclusive to Americans, and blaming them is wrong, wrong, wrong.

The people selling the permits are not American, 50% of the hunters are not American, and you can bet that the vast majority of Americans have no interest in such a hunt.

Hell, if you're asking what I think would be acceptable? Make it a right challenge. Give them a spear and a hunting knife, and wish them luck - now that's a proper hunter. (for the record I can even knapp my own arrow/spear heads from chert or flint..)..

But again, my point had nothing to do with saying this is good, or right, or anything else. I do think that it is a wiser use of resources (lions/rhinos) than simply poaching them and selling off the body parts to China (which, btw, if you're into blaming some large group for the over-use of animals, that's your low-hanging fruit right there - would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe? That's horror).... I can't possibly say this is good, nor can I say it is bad - all I can say is that the president of that country has a right to manage their game as they see fit, provided they're not encouraging damage the species, and from what I can tell it's likely that the economics of this are preventing worse uses/abuses of the animals.

Now. Here's one that disgusts me. Can you even imagine stealing a priceless and nearly extinct waterlily, taking it to an almost certain death? Honestly atrocious...
01/14/2014 11:43:09 AM · #86
Originally posted by jagar:

If someone or someones family were hungry, then one could understand the need to hunt, however i have great difficulty understanding how someone could pull the trigger on an animal without being hungry. It all boils down to motivation and i fear ubique is correct, there is no humanity behind the motivation here, just huge egos that can't feel compasion beyond their own small realities. We should pity them as much as the poor animals, what they do to them, they do to themselves. People like them should embark on a truly brave and great adventure and try and sound the depths of their own inner fears, looking inwards and trying to see the real motives behind their killing frenzy would be a million times harder, chicken shits never do that though.


John, how easy it is to judge others with whom we do not share experience and call them names. What is harder is to empathize. Many of these people were raised in a tradition that highly values hunting for sport.

So, just to be clear here, I've probably killed somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 cute little prairie dogs, and I had no intention of eating a single one of them. Am I a chicken shit John? Or was I simply doing what needed to be done so I didn't have to kill horses with broken legs? (You should try that one some time... I don't think you'd be able to do the right thing, I really don't.. What happens when you're put to a test like that John, could you do what needed to be done? Or would you leave it for someone else to do?).. (As a further aside here, I killed nearly all of them with a bow and arrow, since it was within city limits and firing a gun there is technically illegal..)

Don't get me wrong here, I don't find these hunts particularly honorable, nor am I convinced they're terribly useful or helpful to anyone - equally, I'm not convinced they're terribly harmful either... Where we disagree is when you start demonizing people and cultures that you simply have no experience with and do not understand - I seriously doubt most of these hunters would fit into that rather narrow box you framed up there.
01/14/2014 11:45:12 AM · #87
Originally posted by Nicht:



I would rather (and would love to) be dropped off as mentioned above to track down the animals and watch them alive. I much prefer seeing animals alive in their natural environment rather than dead on my wall, thanks.


Now there's something that all of us here can probably agree on.
01/14/2014 11:49:27 AM · #88
Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!
01/14/2014 12:22:11 PM · #89
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!


o_O ... Honestly, those videos disturb even me, the idea of torturing something like that is horrendous. Surely you're just jesting, and you're not ok at all with this?
01/14/2014 12:30:40 PM · #90
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!


o_O ... Honestly, those videos disturb even me, the idea of torturing something like that is horrendous. Surely you're just jesting, and you're not ok at all with this?
Sorry, but I'm a big sushi eater.
01/14/2014 12:36:58 PM · #91
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!


o_O ... Honestly, those videos disturb even me, the idea of torturing something like that is horrendous. Surely you're just jesting, and you're not ok at all with this?
Sorry, but I'm a big sushi eater.


But frying the fish's body, while keeping it's head out of the oil so that stays alive.. I love sushi - but there's no need to torture the poor fish. I mean literally, they're served on a plate while struggling to breathe.
01/14/2014 12:46:27 PM · #92
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by jagar:

If someone or someones family were hungry, then one could understand the need to hunt, however i have great difficulty understanding how someone could pull the trigger on an animal without being hungry. It all boils down to motivation and i fear ubique is correct, there is no humanity behind the motivation here, just huge egos that can't feel compasion beyond their own small realities. We should pity them as much as the poor animals, what they do to them, they do to themselves. People like them should embark on a truly brave and great adventure and try and sound the depths of their own inner fears, looking inwards and trying to see the real motives behind their killing frenzy would be a million times harder, chicken shits never do that though.


John, how easy it is to judge others with whom we do not share experience and call them names. What is harder is to empathize. Many of these people were raised in a tradition that highly values hunting for sport.

So, just to be clear here, I've probably killed somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 cute little prairie dogs, and I had no intention of eating a single one of them. Am I a chicken shit John? Or was I simply doing what needed to be done so I didn't have to kill horses with broken legs? (You should try that one some time... I don't think you'd be able to do the right thing, I really don't.. What happens when you're put to a test like that John, could you do what needed to be done? Or would you leave it for someone else to do?).. (As a further aside here, I killed nearly all of them with a bow and arrow, since it was within city limits and firing a gun there is technically illegal..)

Don't get me wrong here, I don't find these hunts particularly honorable, nor am I convinced they're terribly useful or helpful to anyone - equally, I'm not convinced they're terribly harmful either... Where we disagree is when you start demonizing people and cultures that you simply have no experience with and do not understand - I seriously doubt most of these hunters would fit into that rather narrow box you framed up there.


I didn't mention any culture Cory so I don't know how I can be demonizing any. If altruistically you killed 5,000 to10,0000 prairie dogs then no you are not a chicken shit, i can just imagine you with a saints halo around your head whilst you pluck off all those dogs :-)
This is my dog Misty, she was old and was suffering a lot, we knew she was at the end and she was going to be put to sleep, at one in the morning she started screaming and convulsing in horrible pain, I knew what needed to be done so I did it, so yes Cory I wouldn't hesitate to kill something if it was the right thing to do.
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01/14/2014 01:04:13 PM · #93
Originally posted by jagar:



I didn't mention any culture Cory so I don't know how I can be demonizing any. If altruistically you killed 5,000 to10,0000 prairie dogs then no you are not a chicken shit, i can just imagine you with a saints halo around your head whilst you pluck off all those dogs :-)
This is my dog Misty, she was old and was suffering a lot, we knew she was at the end and she was going to be put to sleep, at one in the morning she started screaming and convulsing in horrible pain, I knew what needed to be done so I did it, so yes Cory I wouldn't hesitate to kill something if it was the right thing to do.
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I'm surprised, in a good way - you're a good friend to have done so. (and that is one heck of an adorable fur-friend)

As far as altruistically? No.. I killed them for money. Does that change anything? (to be clear here, the rancher was very upset about the horses he had been losing to accidents with their holes, and one $15,000 horse pays for a hell of a lot of prairie dog tails...)

As impressed as I am, and as mistaken as I was about your character in this matter, I do however, have to point out that even if you didn't realize it, you were talking about a culture, the culture which encourages and embraces this stuff. (see "duck dynasty") I suppose the fact that you're not even aware that this is a distinct sub-culture does much to excuse your position, but perhaps a bit of examination would help you to better understand their motivations. (I think you've mistaken their reasons for engaging in this type of hunting)..

It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*

Message edited by author 2014-01-14 13:07:19.
01/14/2014 01:06:53 PM · #94
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!


o_O ... Honestly, those videos disturb even me, the idea of torturing something like that is horrendous. Surely you're just jesting, and you're not ok at all with this?
Sorry, but I'm a big sushi eater.


But frying the fish's body, while keeping it's head out of the oil so that stays alive.. I love sushi - but there's no need to torture the poor fish. I mean literally, they're served on a plate while struggling to breathe.

I have to point out that even if you didn't realize it, you were talking about a culture, the culture which encourages and embraces this stuff. I suppose the fact that you're not even aware that this is a distinct sub-culture does much to excuse your position, but perhaps a bit of examination would help you to better understand their motivations.
01/14/2014 01:17:34 PM · #95
Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.
01/14/2014 01:23:42 PM · #96
Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.


were these racist fat bastards poaching...or was It a legal hunt. And what made hem racist exactly.
01/14/2014 01:29:35 PM · #97
These threads always amuse me. To see the different takes on things from different cultures. Wouldn't it be really amazing if the human race would be as passionate about crimes against humans and diseases as they are against protecting animals?

Carry on. I'll watch from the side and see who gets thrown to the "lions" first.

Matt
01/14/2014 01:47:40 PM · #98
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

would you like to see videos of them frying fish while they're alive, and eating them while they're still trying to breathe?


No, I don't want to see video... set the table!


o_O ... Honestly, those videos disturb even me, the idea of torturing something like that is horrendous. Surely you're just jesting, and you're not ok at all with this?
Sorry, but I'm a big sushi eater.


But frying the fish's body, while keeping it's head out of the oil so that stays alive.. I love sushi - but there's no need to torture the poor fish. I mean literally, they're served on a plate while struggling to breathe.

I have to point out that even if you didn't realize it, you were talking about a culture, the culture which encourages and embraces this stuff. I suppose the fact that you're not even aware that this is a distinct sub-culture does much to excuse your position, but perhaps a bit of examination would help you to better understand their motivations.


Cute Don, and quite clever, even if you've managed to walk right past the larger picture here.

Killing is something we all do... Torturing animals is pretty much universally seen as wrong, whereas killing is not subject to that same view across the majority of the globe. I'm also dismayed by the fur industry that strips the hide of of living animals, and then allows them to die a slow agonizing death in dumpsters filled with other poor beasts stripped of their hides, or any practice which inflicts unnecessary pain on animals... And that includes (especially!) hunters who shoot the animals in such a careless manner as to only wound the creature, leading to a slow painful death.
01/14/2014 01:48:30 PM · #99
Originally posted by MattO:

These threads always amuse me. To see the different takes on things from different cultures. Wouldn't it be really amazing if the human race would be as passionate about crimes against humans and diseases as they are against protecting animals?

Carry on. I'll watch from the side and see who gets thrown to the "lions" first.

Matt


Indeed.
01/14/2014 01:50:19 PM · #100
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by jagar:

Originally posted by Cory:


It's up to you, but I think you'd probably garner a better understanding if you did take some time to examine this particular group of people in greater depth.

*shrug*


Actually in my youth i lived in South Africa, i had first hand experience of hunting in game reserves (i followed along as the racist fat bastards shot whatever moved) and i still think of those days with great disdain.


were these racist fat bastards poaching...or was It a legal hunt. And what made hem racist exactly.


Legal hunt, I noticed the racism when hem :-) thrashed a local farm boy for not opening a gate fast enough, pretty common place in South Africa in the early nineties
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