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01/09/2014 03:00:51 AM · #51
Originally posted by Cory:

… what the motivations of the hunters actually is... Are they doing this for self-aggrandizement?

Well they must be. Self-aggrandisement…amusement...recreation: it all amounts to the same thing, which is killing animals because it gratifies you. Other secondary justification arguments (e.g. conservation, etc) fall as soon as this test is applied: would you still do it if it didn't make you feel good?

Originally posted by Cory:

… will you at least consider becoming more annoyed about poaching? The real level of damage from for-profit hunting is much more concerning and severe. I'm curious if you even know quite how bad it is?

Yes, I do. Rhinos are regularly poached just across the river from my house. Impala and warthogs are poached in the bush actually surrounding my house.
The rhinos are mainly killed by hired African desperates who are prepared to take the risk in order to make many years' income in a couple of days. Their alternative is often no income at all.
The smaller game are poached using wire snares by locals for food.
I am angry about both ends of that poaching scale, even though I'd say that I can understand the poachers' motivation more than I can that of recreational hunters paying to kill animals (not support it, but at least understand it).
I agree with 'shoot on sight' for rhino and elephant poachers, though it's not really going to stop it, because these guys doing the actual killing are quite prepared to die for a chance at the money. They're motivated more by desperation than by naked greed. But the middle men, who pay the poachers to shoot the rhinos, and who then on-sell the horns; those guys are motivated entirely by greed. I'd post a bounty to make their asses worth more than rhino horn. Then they'd quickly become an endangered species themselves, for the very same reason as the rhinos.

Originally posted by Cory:

… you've got the wrong picture of Americans, maybe even the wrong idea about the hunters there.

Yes you're right. It's unfair to generalise. Just be aware of how all this 'we-love-guns' stuff looks to the rest of the world. It's not flattering.

Message edited by author 2014-01-09 10:34:25.
01/09/2014 12:58:32 PM · #52
Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by Cory:

… what the motivations of the hunters actually is... Are they doing this for self-aggrandizement?

Well they must be. Self-aggrandisement…amusement...recreation: it all amounts to the same thing, which is killing animals because it gratifies you. Other secondary justification arguments (e.g. conservation, etc) fall as soon as this test is applied: would you still do it if it didn't make you feel good?

Originally posted by Cory:

… will you at least consider becoming more annoyed about poaching? The real level of damage from for-profit hunting is much more concerning and severe. I'm curious if you even know quite how bad it is?

Yes, I do. Rhinos are regularly poached just across the river from my house. Impala and warthogs are poached in the bush actually surrounding my house.
The rhinos are mainly killed by hired African desperates who are prepared to take the risk in order to make many years' income in a couple of days. Their alternative is often no income at all.
The smaller game are poached using wire snares by locals for food.
I am angry about both ends of that poaching scale, even though I'd say that I can understand the poachers' motivation more than I can that of recreational hunters paying to kill animals (not support it, but at least understand it).
I agree with 'shoot on sight' for rhino and elephant poachers, though it's not really going to stop it, because these guys doing the actual killing are quite prepared to die for a chance at the money. They're motivated more by desperation than by naked greed. But the middle men, who pay the poachers to shoot the rhinos, and who then on-sell the horns; those guys are motivated entirely by greed. I'd post a bounty to make their asses worth more than rhino horn. Then they'd quickly become an endangered species themselves, for the very same reason as the rhinos.

Originally posted by Cory:

… you've got the wrong picture of Americans, maybe even the wrong idea about the hunters there.

Yes you're right. It's unfair to generalise. Just be aware of how all this 'we-love-guns' stuff looks to the rest of the world. It's not flattering.


Ok, let's start with the first point, regarding "would you still do it if it didn't make you feel good".. That's a good deal different from self-aggrandizement - and I do not find hedonism to be wrong in all cases. The question I would return to you is "If it does no harm to the population of animals as a whole, and economically benefits the community (possibly preventing much more damaging poaching), then is it a bad thing?

As for understanding the motivations of the hunters, I think it's first good to recognize that the motivation isn't likely to be universal. I think a good deal of this probably is due to 'family tradition' or sheer boredom more than 'bloodlust' or 'self aggrandizement'.. But I have nothing other than minor experience with hunting families to go on.. (generally this is a family/cultural thing, and that culture isn't "American" but rather what we would typically refer to as 'redneck')

I like your plan on the poachers though - I'd like to point out that there is quite a thriving market for human organs.

I do like guns (love is too strong, but I enjoy them much like I enjoy cameras).. But do please consider that gun owners are quite varied, and that your exposure to gun-owning Americans has been very narrow. Don't judge us all by that standard. (same as it might be rather unfair for me to judge all Africans by the examples set by certain groups of 'African-Americans' here.)

If you ever make it to the states, it'd be a pleasure to show you a different side of American gun owners. As a single example, my girlfriend has several guns, but hasn't ever, nor would ever, kill an animal with it. (unless she was starving or something anyway)...

01/09/2014 01:28:39 PM · #53
So... American = Satan.

Sometimes I think America First had it right and we should have minded our own business and let the rest of the world fight it out back in the 1940's.
01/09/2014 01:40:15 PM · #54
Originally posted by Spork99:

So... American = Satan.

Sometimes I think America First had it right and we should have minded our own business and let the rest of the world fight it out back in the 1940's.


Complete hyperbole.

Ubique didn't start this off on the right foot perhaps, but his position has not been to make that equation, unless, that is, you equate American = Trophy Hunter... Then I suppose this makes sense.
01/09/2014 02:03:43 PM · #55
One thing to keep in mind is the history of trophy hunting in Europe, which I see it as the origin of modern big game hunts. It is a sport, quite different in motivation from sustenance hunting (historically often required poaching on hunting preserves) or eradication hunting. Back in the day when the king owned all the land, vast stretches of land were set aside for the king's hunt, and only he and his friends were allowed to hunt there. The hunting lodges of the minor royalty in Hungary and Romania are staggering in the number and variety of trophies that were collected and displayed.

To my mind this is more the mindset of these folks who fly off to Africa for a canned hunt, it is about emulating the rich and powerful, about fulfilling a fantasy of privilege.

As far as the percentage of Americans on these hunts "Five countries—South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, and Botswana, attract the most clients, with South Africa in the lead. It hosts some 8,500 clients each year, about 57 percent of them from the USA, and generates 76 million Euro and more than 6,000 jobs. Namibia is second with almost 5,400 hunters per year, with about 43 percent of them coming from Germany and Austria"From here so yes, most South African hunters American. That said I noticed back when I used to travel a bit that in off the beaten path locations, any loud obnoxious person who spoke English was assumed to be an American. I would often get the "You don't act like an American" to which I would answer,"Yes I do, I just don't act like your notion of how an American behaves."

And let the hunting industry (and the governments that profit from them) say what it likes, but these hunts are economically useless when measured by honest metrics. Citation, citation
01/09/2014 02:38:36 PM · #56
Well I just came across this thread....Personally I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I myself am a hunter. However, I generally eat what I kill. I assume that lion is edible. I would also assume that these stars were properly licensed to go hunting in Africa. Licenses can be very expensive especially if the animal is endangered or threatened. Then that money goes into protection. So again I see nothing wrong
01/09/2014 03:20:26 PM · #57
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Spork99:

So... American = Satan.

Sometimes I think America First had it right and we should have minded our own business and let the rest of the world fight it out back in the 1940's.


Complete hyperbole.

Ubique didn't start this off on the right foot perhaps, but his position has not been to make that equation, unless, that is, you equate American = Trophy Hunter... Then I suppose this makes sense.


I don't agree with you, but it's not the first time for that. That equation has been made several times with different terms throughout this thread.

As to the hunting thing, I don't have a problem with it as long as it's done within the established rules. Rules which are established by the countries in which the hunts take place. If you don't like the hunting, blame those that allow it as much as those who do it.

01/09/2014 04:56:18 PM · #58
Originally posted by Spork99:

If you don't like the hunting, blame those that allow it as much as those who do it.


Originally posted by ubique:


I would ask, "What the Hell is wrong with you Americans?", but the people who make money out of this crime against humanity are presumably African, so the finger points both ways.


See, you two do agree after all. :D
01/09/2014 08:35:57 PM · #59
Originally posted by Spork99:

So... American = Satan.

Sometimes I think America First had it right and we should have minded our own business and let the rest of the world fight it out back in the 1940's.
yes we should have minded our own business and let Japan blow up the rest of Hawaii.

Reading is fundamental!
01/09/2014 11:24:13 PM · #60
doesn't it seem like the past tense of 'mind' should be 'mound'?

Message edited by author 2014-01-09 23:25:45.
01/09/2014 11:38:57 PM · #61
Originally posted by skewsme:

doesn't it seem like the past tense of 'mind' should be 'mound'?

Yeah! And if I were to blind you today, then tomorrow I would have blound you yesterday :-)
01/09/2014 11:42:04 PM · #62
How perceptive...you astind me...
01/09/2014 11:45:58 PM · #63
Originally posted by skewsme:

doesn't it seem like the past tense of 'mind' should be 'mound'?


I would have went for "should have been minding" not nearly as short, but reads much smoother.
01/09/2014 11:53:28 PM · #64
I woulda gone.
01/09/2014 11:55:12 PM · #65
Originally posted by skewsme:

I woulda gone.


Shoot, I never did done think a that.
01/10/2014 01:32:09 AM · #66
is this a hullabaloo?
01/10/2014 01:38:47 AM · #67
Originally posted by tnun:

is this a hullabaloo?


YEEEEHAW!
01/10/2014 07:19:09 AM · #68
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Spork99:

So... American = Satan.

Sometimes I think America First had it right and we should have minded our own business and let the rest of the world fight it out back in the 1940's.
yes we should have minded our own business and let Japan blow up the rest of Hawaii.

Reading is fundamental!


People forget that the American decision of how to respond to Hitler and Japan in WWII started in 1939, not with the bombing of Pearl Harbor in 1941. US involvement in WWII was by no means a certainty until Japan helped us decide.

Message edited by author 2014-01-10 08:42:25.
01/12/2014 10:51:13 AM · #69
What's cooler than killing a wild animal? Killing an endangered wild animal of course!
01/12/2014 11:03:17 AM · #70
Originally posted by rooum:

What's cooler than killing a wild animal? Killing an endangered wild animal of course!


So, for those of you who care, I would suggest that you write your strongest letters to Hifikepunye Pohamba, the president of Namibia, seeing as how they sell five of these per year... (FYI, this was the first one ever sold outside of Namibia)..
01/12/2014 11:14:31 AM · #71
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Well I just came across this thread....Personally I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I myself am a hunter. However, I generally eat what I kill. I assume that lion is edible. I would also assume that these stars were properly licensed to go hunting in Africa. Licenses can be very expensive especially if the animal is endangered or threatened. Then that money goes into protection. So again I see nothing wrong


Given the opportunity Adam, at no cost to you, would you partake in a lion hunt in Africa? No eating, no license fee - but sanctioned - would you do it just for recreation?
01/12/2014 11:23:36 AM · #72
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by rooum:

What's cooler than killing a wild animal? Killing an endangered wild animal of course!


So, for those of you who care, I would suggest that you write your strongest letters to Hifikepunye Pohamba, the president of Namibia, seeing as how they sell five of these per year... (FYI, this was the first one ever sold outside of Namibia)..


Thanks for the advice Cory. I think i've got his email address somewhere so i'll drop him a line.
01/12/2014 12:58:43 PM · #73
Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Well I just came across this thread....Personally I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I myself am a hunter. However, I generally eat what I kill. I assume that lion is edible. I would also assume that these stars were properly licensed to go hunting in Africa. Licenses can be very expensive especially if the animal is endangered or threatened. Then that money goes into protection. So again I see nothing wrong


Given the opportunity Adam, at no cost to you, would you partake in a lion hunt in Africa? No eating, no license fee - but sanctioned - would you do it just for recreation?


prob not...I believe in the preservation....not the decimation of a species. Lions are not endangered yet but they are close. The money raised on these hunts saves countless animals
01/12/2014 06:21:09 PM · #74
Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Originally posted by Paul:

Originally posted by cowboy221977:

Well I just came across this thread....Personally I don't see anything wrong with hunting. I myself am a hunter. However, I generally eat what I kill. I assume that lion is edible. I would also assume that these stars were properly licensed to go hunting in Africa. Licenses can be very expensive especially if the animal is endangered or threatened. Then that money goes into protection. So again I see nothing wrong


Given the opportunity Adam, at no cost to you, would you partake in a lion hunt in Africa? No eating, no license fee - but sanctioned - would you do it just for recreation?


prob not...I believe in the preservation....not the decimation of a species. Lions are not endangered yet but they are close. The money raised on these hunts saves countless animals


Good to hear Adam. I have to say though, no one is stopping those folks making a donation instead!
01/12/2014 07:00:55 PM · #75
Originally posted by Paul:



Good to hear Adam. I have to say though, no one is stopping those folks making a donation instead!


Wouldn't it be neat if the world actually worked like that?
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