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01/08/2014 04:17:18 PM · #26
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by ubique:

the one country that enshrines a right for virtually anybody to bear arms in its constitution


Interestingly, this right didn't get into our Constitution until militant black groups "found it" there in the 1960s. Conservatives were not smart enough to invent this right by themselves.

Just like socialist Obama wasn't smart enough to come with Obamacare by himself. He stole it from Conservatives.


Well that's gone rather poorly for them hasn't it?

I have no idea if that's true or not, but if it is, the fact that a hugely disproportionate amount of gun crime is committed by African Americans towards African Americans is somewhat ironic.


Yes, the irony is tremendous, and a great example of how the ends do not justify the means. I saw an interesting documentary about how "militant black groups" were undermined by the FBI and police, and transformed into what we now call gangs. Because gun laws in this country are so lax, it's easy for these gangs to get a hold of guns. It's quite simple, really. The more guns around, the more pressure there is for you to have one, too. Fewer guns, less pressure. There's a very enlightening This American Life episode about a high school in Chicago with a yearly death toll from gun violence. I highly recommend it.
01/08/2014 04:22:29 PM · #27
Originally posted by Cory:

Well that's gone rather poorly for them hasn't it?


great link, btw. though I still recommend This American Life for additional insight.
01/08/2014 04:50:01 PM · #28
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

Well that's gone rather poorly for them hasn't it?


great link, btw. though I still recommend This American Life for additional insight.


The only issue I take with it really is that it goes on about the cost of incarceration to society, but completely ignores the increase in incarceration that would follow an outlawing of firearms. It's a fantasy to think that people will simply do whatever the law says - and it's also historically a fallacy to think that prohibition is a solution to issues like this which are divisive ..

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I'm not - but I don't think the pro's of heavy-handed control significantly outweigh the cons, and there is at least some argument that the cons do outweigh the pros.

With all of that being said, despite the articles conclusions, the issue really is a demographic issue, but as the article points out, one that affects all demographics anyway. And of course, I really dislike the conclusion that the 'bad guys' probably are only such 'bad guys' because they were able to own guns... That's just silly.

Still the data presented is good, even if I completely disagree with the conclusions.
01/08/2014 04:53:36 PM · #29
Originally posted by Cory:

I don't think the pro's of heavy-handed control significantly outweigh the cons, and there is at least some argument that the cons do outweigh the pros.


wow, talk about inspired meaninglessness.

Originally posted by Cory:

And of course, I really dislike the conclusion that the 'bad guys' probably are only such 'bad guys' because they were able to own guns... That's just silly.


as I said, check out that episode of This American Life. You should make an effort to understand who these people are and what conditions they face before you label them bad guys.
01/08/2014 05:06:15 PM · #30
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by Cory:

I don't think the pro's of heavy-handed control significantly outweigh the cons, and there is at least some argument that the cons do outweigh the pros.


wow, talk about inspired meaninglessness.

Originally posted by Cory:

And of course, I really dislike the conclusion that the 'bad guys' probably are only such 'bad guys' because they were able to own guns... That's just silly.


as I said, check out that episode of This American Life. You should make an effort to understand who these people are and what conditions they face before you label them bad guys.


Note the 'quotes' around the phrase.

I grew up in that sort of environment Don - note the position of Farmington, NM on this list..

Now, take a look at the crime rate map for that area. The worst is where I currently own property, the place where I grew up is abutted to that and is slightly lower in crime rate, but that's really more to do with the fact that it's largely industrial with some housing.

I promise you, I do know these 'bad guys', personally... Heck, it could even be argued that I WAS one of them. I'm sympathetic to the causes, but it doesn't change the facts...

ETA: The coloration, and I suspect the zones, of the map has changed since I last viewed it... Now the two locations have switched, my original home is now in/near the worst zone, (gerrymandering! :) ) and my new home is in a slightly lower crime area.. (Which actually makes more sense, given that gentrification is well underway in my new neighborhood... Heck there hasn't been a driveby on my block for years now..)

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 17:43:33.
01/08/2014 05:15:12 PM · #31
Let's bash Americans and argue about guns, all in the same thread. Why is this not in rant?
01/08/2014 05:31:56 PM · #32
Originally posted by Ann:

Let's bash Americans and argue about guns, all in the same thread. Why is this not in rant?


Because the topic is consistent with the conversation... Threads typically go to /rant because they've ran off the rails, not because they're confrontational.
01/08/2014 05:37:30 PM · #33
So generalizing and bigotry is acceptable as long as the target is Americans? Got it.
01/08/2014 05:38:08 PM · #34
Originally posted by chazoe:

So generalizing and bigotry is acceptable as long as the target is Americans? Got it.


Pretty much - that is how the world works.

Also, only white people are racist. :D
01/08/2014 05:41:31 PM · #35
Is Americans shooting lions the biggest problem in Africa? Must be nice to live in a place so near a utopia that what gets your blood boiling is the damn dirty Americans shooting your native animals. Africa sounds wonderful.
01/08/2014 05:47:22 PM · #36
Originally posted by chazoe:

Is Americans shooting lions the biggest problem in Africa? Must be nice to live in a place so near a utopia that what gets your blood boiling is the damn dirty Americans shooting your native animals. Africa sounds wonderful.


To be at least a little more fair here, he was clear that he was also accepting that Africans are the ones doing this for profit, and was clear that he's pointing the finger in both directions.

Your point isn't invalid though- I'm still not even convinced that this is a real problem. I don't agree with the motivation of these people, but I haven't been able to deduce that they're actually causing any real trouble here.

*shrug* We're all entitled to our opinion, and it's usually best if we are able to freely express that opinion. I for one appreciate the variety of views I've come into contact with here in these forums - it has, no doubt, broadened my understanding of the world and, in cases like this, how the world views us as Americans.

01/08/2014 07:05:31 PM · #37
Originally posted by Cory:


I'm still not even convinced that this is a real problem. I don't agree with the motivation of these people, but I haven't been able to deduce that they're actually causing any real trouble here.

*shrug* We're all entitled to our opinion, and it's usually best if we are able to freely express that opinion. I for one appreciate the variety of views I've come into contact with here in these forums - it has, no doubt, broadened my understanding of the world and, in cases like this, how the world views us as Americans.


I don稚 want to speak for Paul but from my understanding and what I see as the problem is man finding a need to kill these majestic animals for their own gratification.

Why do we need to kill animals for the sake of a picture or a dead animal trophy mounted on a wall? And I知 not talking nationalities here I知 talking mankind.

01/08/2014 07:15:50 PM · #38
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Cory:


I'm still not even convinced that this is a real problem. I don't agree with the motivation of these people, but I haven't been able to deduce that they're actually causing any real trouble here.

*shrug* We're all entitled to our opinion, and it's usually best if we are able to freely express that opinion. I for one appreciate the variety of views I've come into contact with here in these forums - it has, no doubt, broadened my understanding of the world and, in cases like this, how the world views us as Americans.


I don稚 want to speak for Paul but from my understanding and what I see as the problem is man finding a need to kill these majestic animals for their own gratification.

Why do we need to kill animals for the sake of a picture or a dead animal trophy mounted on a wall? And I知 not talking nationalities here I知 talking mankind.


I'm not one of these hunters, so to speak for them is fairly bold, but I'll do my best since there is no chance that one of them will be able to speak up here (sheer lack of presence)..

As I see it this is still better than simple culling practices like those used in feral hog control. Why? Because if you can get an economic benefit from the culling process to your community, then there is little doubt that this is better than paying an 'expert' to do 'removal'..

With that being said, I always think eating the animal is morally superior, but I really do doubt that a lion is very tasty.

While we're talking about this, the 'need' of humans to do things which degrade the environmental conditions for no real discernable goal, let's talk about the 'need' and desire for gold and diamonds... Huge swaths of the earth have been destroyed in the search for these metals, and environmental damage from the actual processing of ores is astonishingly horrible. I can see less damage and more justification for the trophy hunting frankly. (this does ignore industrial uses of gold and diamonds, but those are not the major reason we mine these..)

I wonder, how many of you screaming about these poor animals are doing so while wearing gold and diamonds?

In the end, really, you're basically asking why human nature is what it is. Why are we violent in general, not just towards other animals? Why do we still choose to eat meat at all when we could kill plants instead? Why do we still use styrofoam? .. The list goes on endlessly, but the reason usually boils down to either our nature or simple economics, and often both.

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 19:19:00.
01/08/2014 07:20:56 PM · #39
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Why do we need to kill animals for the sake of a picture or a dead animal trophy mounted on a wall? And I知 not talking nationalities here I知 talking mankind.

We need to prove how "tough" we are without the risk of going to war and facing an equal.

I Kill Therefore I Am

Words & Music By Phil Ochs (1969)

Intro : G F C D

G F C D

Meet the king of cowboys, he rides a pale pony
G F C D B

He fights the bad boys brings them to their knees
C

He patrols the highways from the air
D Em

He keeps the country safe from long hair
Bb F G

I am the masculine american man
D C D C D

I kill therefore I am.

I don't like the black man, for he doesn't know his place
Take the back of my hand or I'll spray you with my mace
I'm as brave as any man can be
I find my courage through chemistry
I am the masculine american man
I kill therefore I am.

I don't like the students now, they don't have no respect
They don't like to work now, I think I'll wring their necks
They call me pig, although I'm underpaid
I'll show those faggots that I'm not afraid
I am the masculine american man
I kill therefore I am.

Farewell to the gangsters we don't need them anymore
We've got the police force, they're the ones who break the law
He's got a gun and he's a hater
He shoots first, he shoots later
I am the masculine american man
I kill therefore I am.
01/08/2014 07:29:33 PM · #40
It was all started by the Brits. Empire. The Great White Hunter. And the irony of it being Americans draped in African animal carcasses is that after freeing ourselves from Great Britain, to set upon the course of material betterment, we succeeded; or some of us succeeded, and if you examine middle and upper classes that emerged in the US in the 19th and 20th centuries, they were close imitators the Brits. Why even here in Canada we have our great hero, Conrad Black, finaigling a lordship...

These are silly people.

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 19:35:45.
01/08/2014 08:02:51 PM · #41
Originally posted by tnun:

It was all started by the Brits. Empire. The Great White Hunter. And the irony of it being Americans draped in African animal carcasses is that after freeing ourselves from Great Britain, to set upon the course of material betterment, we succeeded; or some of us succeeded, and if you examine middle and upper classes that emerged in the US in the 19th and 20th centuries, they were close imitators the Brits. Why even here in Canada we have our great hero, Conrad Black, finagling a lordship...

These are silly people.

They ARE silly people, but it wasn't just the Brits. No, it was the aristocracy in general. Certainly Germans, Russians; they organized these "hunts" too. When it all started, these people weren't far removed from a need to do battle regularly to protect their interests. They kind of sublimated all that out into animals when it was no longer de trop to kill people :-)
01/08/2014 08:03:12 PM · #42
Originally posted by Cory:

I'm not one of these hunters, so to speak for them is fairly bold, but I'll do my best since there is no chance that one of them will be able to speak up here (sheer lack of presence)..
Why do you feel the need to speak for these hunters? Do you condone this type of hunting ?

As I see it this is still better than simple culling practices like those used in feral hog control. Why? Because if you can get an economic benefit from the culling process to your community, then there is little doubt that this is better than paying an 'expert' to do 'removal'..


In my experience the act of removal of feral animals by whatever means is providing an economic and environmental benefit to the community.

Originally posted by Cory:

With that being said, I always think eating the animal is morally superior, but I really do doubt that a lion is very tasty.


So this is a moot point then. I think we can agree that the eating of lions in these cases is just not happening.

Originally posted by Cory:

While we're talking about this, the 'need' of humans to do things which degrade the environmental conditions for no real discernable goal, let's talk about the 'need' and desire for gold and diamonds... Huge swaths of the earth have been destroyed in the search for these metals, and environmental damage from the actual processing of ores is astonishingly horrible. I can see less damage and more justification for the trophy hunting frankly. (this does ignore industrial uses of gold and diamonds, but those are not the major reason we mine these..)

Your comparison to mining is a classic diversion and serves no purpose to the topic!

Originally posted by Cory:

I wonder, how many of you screaming about these poor animals are doing so while wearing gold and diamonds?


I have no need for jewelry so by your argument I知 allowed to feel something for these poor animals ( I do like your use of "poor animals" in a patronizing manner)


Originally posted by Cory:

In the end, really, you're basically asking why human nature is what it is. Why are we violent in general, not just towards other animals? Why do we still choose to eat meat at all when we could kill plants instead? Why do we still use styrofoam? .. The list goes on endlessly, but the reason usually boils down to either our nature or simple economics, and often both.


I wasn稚 asking why we are violent towards each other that was your interpretation I was asking why the need to gratify ourselves in killing animals in the way they are trophy hunted in Africa.

Regarding meat eating well essentially we are carnivores and we eat meat usually farmed meat and mostly we supplement this by killing plants from farmed fruits and vegetables.

I think you are correct that it boils down to our nature but not so much the economics part. It boils down to the nature of that person doing the killing and that nature is determined by how and where they were raised, the environment they come from and quite possibly their exposure to guns!!

Thanks Cory your reply has helped understand the mindset of these people.

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 20:05:06.
01/08/2014 08:27:42 PM · #43
"The English country gentleman galloping after a fox - the unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable."

Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)
01/08/2014 08:29:50 PM · #44
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by tnun:

It was all started by the Brits. Empire. The Great White Hunter. And the irony of it being Americans draped in African animal carcasses is that after freeing ourselves from Great Britain, to set upon the course of material betterment, we succeeded; or some of us succeeded, and if you examine middle and upper classes that emerged in the US in the 19th and 20th centuries, they were close imitators the Brits. Why even here in Canada we have our great hero, Conrad Black, finagling a lordship...

These are silly people.

They ARE silly people, but it wasn't just the Brits. No, it was the aristocracy in general. Certainly Germans, Russians; they organized these "hunts" too. When it all started, these people weren't far removed from a need to do battle regularly to protect their interests. They kind of sublimated all that out into animals when it was no longer de trop to kill people :-)


well, yes, more or less. we also mustn't forget droit de seigneur, where the lord of the manor had hunting rights and few others did. as well, there were gamekeepers doing pretty much what the Africans were doing in providing targets, and all this for at least 4 or 5 centuries in England. (I said that badly, although gamekeepers were indeed shot by accident). the royal hunt. ritual. and excess; here Kaiser Wilhelm excelled, and after his banishment caused countless trees to be cut and sawn that he might one-handedly split logs. Que hombre!

01/08/2014 08:30:28 PM · #45
Originally posted by Stagolee:



In my experience the act of removal of feral animals by whatever means is providing an economic and environmental benefit to the community.


What, exactly, is your experience here? You don't strike me as the ranching or hunting type.

Originally posted by Stagolee:


Your comparison to mining is a classic diversion and serves no purpose to the topic!


Not a diversion, your question was that of human nature, and why we are willing to do things that are detrimental to the Earth in order to satisfy what are, effectively, unjustifiable needs.

Originally posted by Stagolee:


I have no need for jewelry so by your argument I知 allowed to feel something for these poor animals ( I do like your use of "poor animals" in a patronizing manner)


Oh, ok.. I have no need for trophy hunting, so I guess I'm allowed to feel something about diamonds.. Or something of that sort... What the heck is your point here? Because you don't do it that this isn't a huge problem? Surely not.... Again, YOUR question delved into human nature, do you really think we should narrowly restrict the discussion of human nature to this one facet? Because if you do, then you're going to ignore a HUGE amount of relevant information. If your desire is to understand, then don't dismiss what I've said so quickly... If your goal is to simply demonize people who hunt... Well. Ok, go for it, but don't expect me to respect your position on this.

Originally posted by Stagolee:


Originally posted by Cory:

In the end, really, you're basically asking why human nature is what it is. Why are we violent in general, not just towards other animals? Why do we still choose to eat meat at all when we could kill plants instead? Why do we still use styrofoam? .. The list goes on endlessly, but the reason usually boils down to either our nature or simple economics, and often both.


I wasn稚 asking why we are violent towards each other that was your interpretation I was asking why the need to gratify ourselves in killing animals in the way they are trophy hunted in Africa.

Regarding meat eating well essentially we are carnivores and we eat meat usually farmed meat and mostly we supplement this by killing plants from farmed fruits and vegetables.

I think you are correct that it boils down to our nature but not so much the economics part. It boils down to the nature of that person doing the killing and that nature is determined by how and where they were raised, the environment they come from and quite possibly their exposure to guns!!

Thanks Cory your reply has helped understand the mindset of these people.


Where to start with all of that? Obviously your association of guns and how they force people to become trophy hunters is a little bit of the ridiculous...

Your assertion that we are carnivores is just plain wrong... We're classified as omnivores. As is your dismissal of the value of a life if it was farmed instead of wild. Alive is alive, and anything that you're trying to convince yourself otherwise is only serving to ease your conscience and avoid having to actually accept that you are taking the lives of innocent animals so that you can enjoy a steak or a chicken nugget.

And the fact that you dismiss economics as a HUGE motivator of this sort of thing is simply astonishing... If I know ANYTHING it's that you follow the money.
01/08/2014 08:56:01 PM · #46
Cory I need to go out but will answer your issues in detail later on tonight.

Just two quick points I need to clarify! I'm only discussing the stories from Africa and not "hunting" in general. And secondly not that it is your business or should it effect our arguments but I do live a very rural lifestyle and the need to cull feral and native animals is a constant requirement!
01/08/2014 09:00:04 PM · #47
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Cory I need to go out but will answer your issues in detail later on tonight.

Just two quick points I need to clarify! I'm only discussing the stories from Africa and not "hunting" in general. And secondly not that it is your business or should it effect our arguments but I do live a very rural lifestyle and the need to cull feral and native animals is a constant requirement!


Cool, I'll be looking for it! :)

FYI - that is quite relevant experience. I do think it affects our arguments greatly, it helps me to understand where you're coming from. Thank you, I appreciate you sharing that.
01/08/2014 10:27:54 PM · #48
Originally posted by chazoe:

So generalizing and bigotry is acceptable as long as the target is Americans? Got it.


Would you be so kind as to point out exactly where the generalizing and bigotry occurred... I am getting rather old and my feeble eyesight and short attention span did not enable me to find what you are alluding to.

Ray
01/09/2014 01:27:04 AM · #49
Here's a very good article by a top scientist who's at the centre of African big cat conservation.

He argues that while paid hunting is abhorrent, it's necessary. Or at least justifiable. Shooting down (pardon the pun) some of my own arguments.

I can't agree with all he says, but he's a lot better informed than me and has vastly more authority.

But he's a scientist, and sees things dispassionately. I'm not, and I don't.

My core argument remains. Shooting animals for self-aggrandisement is a disgrace to humanity, and remains so even if one can make a superficially credible argument for it on dispassionate conservationist grounds. I have no objection to killing animals for reasons other than for the pleasure and amusement of the killer. That's ugly, and diminishes every human being.
01/09/2014 01:48:36 AM · #50
Originally posted by ubique:

Here's a very good article by a top scientist who's at the centre of African big cat conservation.

He argues that while paid hunting is abhorrent, it's necessary. Or at least justifiable. Shooting down (pardon the pun) some of my own arguments.

I can't agree with all he says, but he's a lot better informed than me and has vastly more authority.

But he's a scientist, and sees things dispassionately. I'm not, and I don't.

My core argument remains. Shooting animals for self-aggrandisement is a disgrace to humanity, and remains so even if one can make a superficially credible argument for it on dispassionate conservationist grounds. I have no objection to killing animals for reasons other than for the pleasure and amusement of the killer. That's ugly, and diminishes every human being.


Well. I love your honesty. I'm adding you to my favorite photographers for it. I prefer it to anything else.

The question that I think is still open here is what the motivations of the hunters actually is... Are they doing this for self-aggrandizement? Or just as a variety of hunting, much the same as one of us might well experiment with macro or street shooting... I don't know, perhaps you are right about their motivation, but even I'm not so bold as to claim that I can know what motivates them. I am so bold as to claim that I suspect there are a variety of motivations, some less respectable than others.

I suppose I'm in the dispassionate camp, I just want to do whatever the evidence says is best.

Do tell me, will you at least consider becoming more annoyed about poaching? The real level of damage from for-profit hunting is much more concerning and severe. I'm curious if you even know quite how bad it is? (not being a smart ass, it's very possible that you're not aware of the extent of damage that poachers have done, and are doing....).. If you honestly don't know, do take a look into it - I think your anger will shift rather rapidly elsewhere.

For what it's worth, in our country we have implemented a great number of programs to ensure that our game is very well managed and protected. We try very hard to do our best by wildlife and the environment... There's still a hell of a lot more we need to do, but we really are trying hard over here to do what is right. I promise you one thing for sure, you've got the wrong picture of Americans, maybe even the wrong idea about the hunters there. If you could get past their killing of wildlife, and their 'loud American' nature (Not entirely a mis-characterization), I do wonder if you got to know a few of them if you'd feel the same still... *shrug*
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