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01/08/2014 01:42:01 AM · #1
Recently there was this, and now there is this.

I would ask, "What the Hell is wrong with you Americans?", but the people who make money out of this crime against humanity are presumably African, so the finger points both ways. Thus I must give both parties the finger, and wish that Karma finds you soon. I hope we run out of these detestable people before we run out of lions.
01/08/2014 01:49:04 AM · #2
Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.
01/08/2014 01:58:21 AM · #3
again so called celebrities doing what they do, sickening
01/08/2014 02:17:18 AM · #4
Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


Honest questions:

What does it matter if other nationalities do this type of thing?

Are tying to condone or justify these actions because other nationalities do it too?
01/08/2014 02:21:51 AM · #5
Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


Honest questions:

What does it matter if other nationalities do this type of thing?

Are tying to condone or justify these actions because other nationalities do it too?


Not at all... But Paul is implying that this is an American 'thing'.. I'm curious if that's actually true.

However, I also asked about the conservation status of the lions. I don't know if hunting them serves a purpose in terms of population control, or if it's simply rampant and they are going to be entirely killed off. I'll probably research it some myself later, even if only to verify what Paul or someone else asserts on the matter.

I haven't the foggiest idea right now if I support this or not, nor do I know if Paul's implication that this is primarily an interest of Americans is true. Both are valid and intriguing questions though.

FWIW, I'm really quite a bit more concerned about the conservation question...

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 02:25:42.
01/08/2014 02:52:57 AM · #6
Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


It isn't exclusively Americans, though they are certainly disproportionately represented. I live in Africa, in the bush. The only people I have personally seen at the regional bush airports and safari hubs with guns and all the camouflage gear are Americans; they're easy to spot because they are invariably by far the loudest and most obnoxious people present at the time.

The conservation status of lions is irrelevant. These recreational hunters and onanists make little difference to the population of lions (and buffalo, leopards, etc). They don't diminish the lions; they diminish us. Hunting for self-aggrandisement is indeed a crime against humanity.
01/08/2014 03:18:31 AM · #7
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


Honest questions:

What does it matter if other nationalities do this type of thing?

Are tying to condone or justify these actions because other nationalities do it too?


Not at all... But Paul is implying that this is an American 'thing'.. I'm curious if that's actually true.

However, I also asked about the conservation status of the lions. I don't know if hunting them serves a purpose in terms of population control, or if it's simply rampant and they are going to be entirely killed off. I'll probably research it some myself later, even if only to verify what Paul or someone else asserts on the matter.

I haven't the foggiest idea right now if I support this or not, nor do I know if Paul's implication that this is primarily an interest of Americans is true. Both are valid and intriguing questions though.

FWIW, I'm really quite a bit more concerned about the conservation question...


Thanks for the reply Cory.

I only asked because I was just little surprised at the lack of concern in your initial response.
01/08/2014 08:21:07 AM · #8
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Stagolee:

Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


Honest questions:

What does it matter if other nationalities do this type of thing?

Are tying to condone or justify these actions because other nationalities do it too?


Not at all... But Paul is implying that this is an American 'thing'.. I'm curious if that's actually true.

However, I also asked about the conservation status of the lions. I don't know if hunting them serves a purpose in terms of population control, or if it's simply rampant and they are going to be entirely killed off. I'll probably research it some myself later, even if only to verify what Paul or someone else asserts on the matter.

I haven't the foggiest idea right now if I support this or not, nor do I know if Paul's implication that this is primarily an interest of Americans is true. Both are valid and intriguing questions though.

FWIW, I'm really quite a bit more concerned about the conservation question...


//www.save-wildlife.com/downloads/save_african_animals/African_Lion_2012_English.pdf

Reasons for a lionís threatened species status

1. Trophy Hunting

Roughly, since the beginning of man time, humans have been hunting
for lions. Today's vast hunting industry is proof enough. It is norm for
hunters to hunt male lions. Overall, a total of 4-5000 lions are bred so
man can hunt. Often, hunting farms offer lion killings for 16,000 dollars.
Apart from the decline in lion population, the hunt for male lions also
results in a constant change of pride leader. When the head of a pride
dies, a nomad usually takes over and kills the cubs. Such a chain of
effects occurs in such short intervals that consequently, the death rate
of cubs increases to 70%. Female lions may kill offspring that is not
from a pride leader as well. Thus, a young lionís chance of survival
increases when a nomad coalition seizes a pride.
01/08/2014 11:37:23 AM · #9
Originally posted by Kelli:


//www.save-wildlife.com/downloads/save_african_animals/African_Lion_2012_English.pdf

Reasons for a lionís threatened species status

1. Trophy Hunting

Roughly, since the beginning of man time, humans have been hunting
for lions. Today's vast hunting industry is proof enough. It is norm for
hunters to hunt male lions. Overall, a total of 4-5000 lions are bred so
man can hunt. Often, hunting farms offer lion killings for 16,000 dollars.
Apart from the decline in lion population, the hunt for male lions also
results in a constant change of pride leader. When the head of a pride
dies, a nomad usually takes over and kills the cubs. Such a chain of
effects occurs in such short intervals that consequently, the death rate
of cubs increases to 70%. Female lions may kill offspring that is not
from a pride leader as well. Thus, a young lionís chance of survival
increases when a nomad coalition seizes a pride.


That's not a very well-informed reference source I'm afraid, in respect of the magnitude and consequences of paid vanity hunting. It's also more than a little fuzzy in its internal logic. But even if it were authoritative it wouldn't matter much because this hunting for personal indulgence and aggrandisement is not really a conservation issue. It's not even about lions at all; it's about humanity. If we do this, any of us, all of us are diminished and disgraced by it.

Arguments about conservation and population control are, when made by 'recreational' hunters, simply wilful bullshit. If they are so keen to assist in conservation, have them donate all the money and time they spend on guns & hunting to the WWF instead. That would magnify their alleged contribution to conservation a hundred-thousand-fold. The 'hunter-as-conservationist' argument is always mere sophistry.
01/08/2014 11:54:47 AM · #10
Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by Kelli:


//www.save-wildlife.com/downloads/save_african_animals/African_Lion_2012_English.pdf

Reasons for a lionís threatened species status

1. Trophy Hunting

Roughly, since the beginning of man time, humans have been hunting
for lions. Today's vast hunting industry is proof enough. It is norm for
hunters to hunt male lions. Overall, a total of 4-5000 lions are bred so
man can hunt. Often, hunting farms offer lion killings for 16,000 dollars.
Apart from the decline in lion population, the hunt for male lions also
results in a constant change of pride leader. When the head of a pride
dies, a nomad usually takes over and kills the cubs. Such a chain of
effects occurs in such short intervals that consequently, the death rate
of cubs increases to 70%. Female lions may kill offspring that is not
from a pride leader as well. Thus, a young lionís chance of survival
increases when a nomad coalition seizes a pride.


That's not a very well-informed reference source I'm afraid, in respect of the magnitude and consequences of paid vanity hunting. It's also more than a little fuzzy in its internal logic. But even if it were authoritative it wouldn't matter much because this hunting for personal indulgence and aggrandisement is not really a conservation issue. It's not even about lions at all; it's about humanity. If we do this, any of us, all of us are diminished and disgraced by it.

Arguments about conservation and population control are, when made by 'recreational' hunters, simply wilful bullshit. If they are so keen to assist in conservation, have them donate all the money and time they spend on guns & hunting to the WWF instead. That would magnify their alleged contribution to conservation a hundred-thousand-fold. The 'hunter-as-conservationist' argument is always mere sophistry.


Sorry, I didn't check the article that thoroughly. My personal belief is that trophy hunting is disgusting. Maybe this one is better... //www.ifaw.org/sites/default/files/Lions%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

One of the most easily addressed threats to lions
is trophy hunting, primarily by wealthy overseas
tourists. United States citizens account for more
than 50% of the lions killed for trophies.
01/08/2014 12:24:19 PM · #11
Kelli I wasn't meaning any criticism of your position on this (as I hope you realised). It's just that the first reference was a wee bit simplistic and idealised.

The lions shot by these vain fools aren't, for the most part, part of genuinely functional and autonomous prides. They're bred for the purpose, in the main. A lion pride requires more territory than we are prepared to give them, outside of national parks, reserves and protected places. As much as 400 square kilometres, depending on prey populations (though half that size is probably more common). That's not really available, in the places that sponsor paid hunting. Those places are really little more than artfully presented theme parks for the gullible gunman. And, as you say, that gullible gunman is, rather more often than not, a 'merkin'.

It's inevitable that human encroachment is going to eventually eradicate lions from any area not part of a substantial conservation protectorate, just as it is that this squeeze will result in human/lion incidents in defence of livestock, and in defence of self (on the part of both parties).

It's also inevitable that this squeeze will result in a far greater threat to lions than does vanity hunting, and that threat is inbreeding and the consequent genetic degradation deriving from what becomes an impracticably small local gene pool. So human encroachment and genetic weakness are a far greater factor in lions' threatened status than is trophy hunting.

But the vanity hunting, the recreational hunting, is still the more unconscionable factor. It's the one that has no legitimate justification at all. These people disgrace us.
01/08/2014 01:15:30 PM · #12
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Ubique your disdain towards Americans is noted. Just note we are all not terrible and please do not categorize "true" American heroes with these hunters. I know a few American heroes and they deserve better. Thanks for your consideration.

I normally have a very easy going sense of humor, but your singling out and mischaracterization of all Americans struck a cord.

Cheers,
Jeff
01/08/2014 01:22:53 PM · #13
Originally posted by sempermarine:

your singling out and mischaracterization of all Americans struck a cord.


it struck a chord with me, too, but my chord was more like "what can I do to stop my country from f&*&8ng with the rest of the world?"
01/08/2014 01:28:28 PM · #14
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by sempermarine:

your singling out and mischaracterization of all Americans struck a cord.


it struck a chord with me, too, but my chord was more like "what can I do to stop my country from f&*&8ng with the rest of the world?"


Great question!

Run for office, vote, lobby, start a blog... I have no idea. Don't go on hunting safaris in Africa. I lived in Mozambique for 18 months and didn't kill a thing. It is possible for an American to act responsible abroad. Although I was obnoxious once.

Make art!
01/08/2014 01:39:58 PM · #15
Originally posted by sempermarine:

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by sempermarine:

your singling out and mischaracterization of all Americans struck a cord.


it struck a chord with me, too, but my chord was more like "what can I do to stop my country from f&*&8ng with the rest of the world?"


Great question!

Run for office, vote, lobby, start a blog... I have no idea. Don't go on hunting safaris in Africa. I lived in Mozambique for 18 months and didn't kill a thing. It is possible for an American to act responsible abroad. Although I was obnoxious once.

Make art!


I think both of us do our part. ;)
01/08/2014 01:41:14 PM · #16
I'm sure it's not only an American thing. A few weeks ago I was searching for news of Kamchatka and I found out a Russian site full of hunters photographed with several killed animals. I can't understand what is the funny aspect of killing animals in that way, just for fun.
01/08/2014 01:58:43 PM · #17
Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by Cory:

Honest question:

Are Americans the only ones who do this, or are we the only ones who yell about it when one of our celebrities do this?

I ask because it's rather hard for me to fathom that this is something that is exclusively an American 'sport'..

The other question is basically 'what's the conservation status of lions in that area?'.. I wasn't aware that we're running out of lions, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that we are.


It isn't exclusively Americans, though they are certainly disproportionately represented. I live in Africa, in the bush. The only people I have personally seen at the regional bush airports and safari hubs with guns and all the camouflage gear are Americans; they're easy to spot because they are invariably by far the loudest and most obnoxious people present at the time.

The conservation status of lions is irrelevant. These recreational hunters and onanists make little difference to the population of lions (and buffalo, leopards, etc). They don't diminish the lions; they diminish us. Hunting for self-aggrandisement is indeed a crime against humanity.


maybe they ate the shit out of those lions
01/08/2014 02:40:50 PM · #18
Disgusting!!
01/08/2014 02:45:24 PM · #19
you'd think that people who do these things would have the sense to hide. but I guess that defeats the purpose.

a****les sans frontieres?

01/08/2014 02:50:15 PM · #20
Originally posted by sempermarine:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_N.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Ubique your disdain towards Americans is noted. Just note we are all not terrible and please do not categorize "true" American heroes with these hunters. I know a few American heroes and they deserve better. Thanks for your consideration.

I normally have a very easy going sense of humor, but your singling out and mischaracterization of all Americans struck a cord.

Cheers,
Jeff


To be fair, he did respond to ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Cory with this comment: "It isn't exclusively Americans, though they are certainly disproportionately represented". While the term " disproportionately " might also be disputed, I for one did not view his comment as being representative of a disdain towards Americans, but rather one where the finger pointing was done in a venue where the accused were exclusively from the USA.

Could it be that you take offence to finger pointing, regardless as to whether or not there is truth to be found in the accusation.

Just asking.

Ray
01/08/2014 03:40:36 PM · #21
Well, Jeff's right, Ray. I do have disdain for Americans when it comes to this issue, though not for all Americans, I promise you.

It's just that most of the people who hunt animals for personal amusement are Americans; almost all of the magazines celebrating this self-indulgent vanity are American; all of the TV programmes in which infantile fat men with beards gleefully rejoice in making, modifying and firing absurdly lethal guns are American (one of them features this very same dickhead linked in the OP); all of the people who champion & relish gun ownership in these DPC forums seem to be American; and the one country that enshrines a right for virtually anybody to bear arms in its constitution - and clearly cares more for it than it does for habeus corpus - is America.

Other nationalities may indeed do some of those things, but I'm still somehow struck by the pattern above.

01/08/2014 03:46:59 PM · #22
Originally posted by ubique:

the one country that enshrines a right for virtually anybody to bear arms in its constitution


Interestingly, this right didn't get into our Constitution until militant black groups "found it" there in the 1960s. Conservatives were not smart enough to invent this right by themselves.

Just like socialist Obama wasn't smart enough to come with Obamacare by himself. He stole it from Conservatives.
01/08/2014 03:48:57 PM · #23
Originally posted by ubique:

Well, Jeff's right, Ray. I do have disdain for Americans when it comes to this issue, though not for all Americans, I promise you.

It's just that most of the people who hunt animals for personal amusement are Americans; almost all of the magazines celebrating this self-indulgent vanity are American; all of the TV programmes in which infantile fat men with beards gleefully rejoice in making, modifying and firing absurdly lethal guns are American (one of them features this very same dickhead linked in the OP); all of the people who champion & relish gun ownership in these DPC forums seem to be American; and the one country that enshrines a right for virtually anybody to bear arms in its constitution - and clearly cares more for it than it does for habeus corpus - is America.

Other nationalities may indeed do some of those things, but I'm still somehow struck by the pattern above.


I'm not sure what the right to go before a judge has to do with guns... But ok... I agree with that I suppose, given just how much of a joke our justice system is.

However, no matter what your personal experience, an objective viewer can clearly understand that hunting of the sort you describe simply isn't a sport that is limited to Americans... (fox hunts anyone?) And more than that, the really horrible and damaging hunters are poachers who are nearly exclusively Africans - but don't let facts get in your way bro... Your complete and outright dismissal of the science around ecology and how hunting fits into that (otherwise known as 'conservation') tells me that you're acting more on emotion here than facts, and I'm afraid there's nothing I can say that will help you to deal with those emotions.

BTW: I actually laughed out loud at "Absurdly lethal guns"... Really, would you prefer if we designed weapons to simply wound the animal so it can die a slow, horrible and painful death?
01/08/2014 03:51:59 PM · #24
Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by ubique:

the one country that enshrines a right for virtually anybody to bear arms in its constitution


Interestingly, this right didn't get into our Constitution until militant black groups "found it" there in the 1960s. Conservatives were not smart enough to invent this right by themselves.

Just like socialist Obama wasn't smart enough to come with Obamacare by himself. He stole it from Conservatives.


Well that's gone rather poorly for them hasn't it?

I have no idea if that's true or not, but if it is, the fact that a hugely disproportionate amount of gun crime is committed by African Americans towards African Americans is somewhat ironic.

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 15:52:35.
01/08/2014 04:06:44 PM · #25
This is pointless. Going to take some self-portraits. Thanks for the inspiration!

Message edited by author 2014-01-08 16:15:04.
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