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09/10/2004 06:30:27 AM · #26
Originally posted by PaulMdx:


Actually I believe it does perform some startup operations.


It certainly does - but THREE SECONDS? That's an awful lot of time. Just think how many shots it can convert to JPEG in that time! There's a lot of computing power in that camera, so this really shouldn't take quite so long. It's not like it has to detect hard drives and memory banks and stuff.
09/10/2004 07:45:45 AM · #27
I'm a bit surprised that the person who says he owned both the 300D and the 10D would only comment if felt cheap...wow, big surprise since it's a plastic body....

However are differences aside from the firmware:

The Engine on the 10d has more ram and a faster chip
The ram-buffer is 4 times as large on the 10d (hence the higher frame/buffer rate)

again due to the engine, the read/write speed is also higher.

finally, the eye-piece visor is also larger and higher up on the body...which helps with the "nose crushing" !

I think that if someone wants to "criticize" something...especially if he/she claims he owned both machines....the critics should be accurate.
09/10/2004 08:17:24 AM · #28
Had the D70 been available when I was looking for a DSLR, I would be shooting Nikon and not Canon. IMHO, it offers the best bang for the buck. If you don't have investment in a lens system, the Nikon certainly deserves a good look.

09/10/2004 09:09:31 AM · #29
I'm a new Rebel owner, and I considered all the positive things I heard about the Nikon before ending up buying the rebel. I can summarize the difference in one word: "noise".

I wanted the ability to take advantage of higher ISO and have as much picture clarity, free from noise, as possible. I realize that the Nikon is very good about noise, but it's still higher than the 10D and the Rebel. Even if the Rebel has other deficiencies, it's picture sensor is the same as the 10D.

Now I would have loved to wait until the Digital Rebel II came out--I am pretty sure it will be the same sensor as the 20D if history repeats itself, but when my G2 broke, I would have been cameraless too long.

As to the 10D versus the Rebel, or even the 20D versus the rebel, now with my research into buying lenses, I see that it's the glass where you are going to pour all the money anyway. Now, to stir the pot a bit, if Nikon has better lenses in the lower price ranges, then I may have made a mistake, because I cannot afford all L glass!
09/10/2004 09:14:25 AM · #30
Originally posted by nshapiro:

I'm a new Rebel owner, and I considered all the positive things I heard about the Nikon before ending up buying the rebel. I can summarize the difference in one word: "noise".

I wanted the ability to take advantage of higher ISO and have as much picture clarity, free from noise, as possible. I realize that the Nikon is very good about noise, but it's still higher than the 10D and the Rebel. Even if the Rebel has other deficiencies, it's picture sensor is the same as the 10D.

Now I would have loved to wait until the Digital Rebel II came out--I am pretty sure it will be the same sensor as the 20D if history repeats itself, but when my G2 broke, I would have been cameraless too long.

As to the 10D versus the Rebel, or even the 20D versus the rebel, now with my research into buying lenses, I see that it's the glass where you are going to pour all the money anyway. Now, to stir the pot a bit, if Nikon has better lenses in the lower price ranges, then I may have made a mistake, because I cannot afford all L glass!


Does anybody have any news, rumours or guesses about this 'digital rebel II'? I would love to know more...
09/10/2004 09:46:05 AM · #31
The Rebel always was known as a reduced features version of the 10D intended to break the $1000 price barrier for DSLRs. And including the much maligned 18-55 kit lens was to make it easier to let buyers new to DSLR photography get started immediately. It's sales record proves that it has succeeded very well. Years from now it will be called a milestone in digital photo technology and appear in museum exhibits. If Canon had not gone with the concept that the Rebel embodies- the price of DSLRs might still start at $1500 and lots of DSLR owners would still be suffering from camera envy. Instead they are saving up their sheckels to buy L glass.

If you buy a Volkswagen, the Porsches are going to blow you away on the expressways, but at least you're no longer riding a bicycle.

Will there be a reduced features version of the 20D introduced soon to replace the 300D?

Will the 17-85 IS kit lens be looked upon as a budget level stopgap, or a serious lens?

09/10/2004 09:47:20 AM · #32
Originally posted by zerocusa:

under which rock have you been hiding for the past year? u should have done your research before buying.


I'm not stupid, I searched and I saw that there were differences between both cameras, including FEC. What I didn't know is that some of them were not technical issues or added costs but were blocked on purpose for only questionable marketing strategies. Don't get me wrong, I still like the DRebel a lot though and I wouldn't change my choice. I wouldn't pay 500$ extra bucks for FEC. The other differences to get to the 10D or the D70 were not major for me. I just find these marketing strategies (to block items by software) strange because they got to be found some day or another.

Message edited by author 2004-09-10 09:57:45.
09/10/2004 10:14:50 AM · #33
Originally posted by darix:

Originally posted by zerocusa:

under which rock have you been hiding for the past year? u should have done your research before buying.


I'm not stupid, I searched and I saw that there were differences between both cameras, including FEC. What I didn't know is that some of them were not technical issues or added costs but were blocked on purpose for only questionable marketing strategies. Don't get me wrong, I still like the DRebel a lot though and I wouldn't change my choice. I wouldn't pay 500$ extra bucks for FEC. The other differences to get to the 10D or the D70 were not major for me. I just find these marketing strategies (to block items by software) strange because they got to be found some day or another.


The reason the 300D was afordable, is that they did not have to "create" new software for it, by using the 10D software... it's not bad marketing it's good sense. Now think about the demographics...the people who where targeted with the 300D where "lowtech" photographers, using full auto or semi auto, for them the added features are useless.
09/10/2004 10:23:02 AM · #34
Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by darix:

Anyone wanting to share my lost of faith in the world? ;-)

I'm disappointed in a couple of the features - FEC is definitely one of them, along with the ability to choose AF mode in manual modes.

The fact is it's the cheapest and first prosumer DSLR on the market. Canon released the 300D, what, 6 months before Nikon released their D70? More?

Let's hope the new 300D (whatever it will be called) fixes a few of these cheap omissions and puts the 300D mkII back to being the best prosumer DSLR as well as the cheapest. :-)


The 300D may be less than half the original selling price of the Canon D30 but it's a vastly superior camera. The D30 is almost a joke. That was Canon's first attempt at a digital [at all] I believe and it was a DSLR...
09/10/2004 10:49:50 AM · #35
Originally posted by darix:

Just got it a week ago. Not disappointed in the camera itself. I like it a lot. I am disappointed to learn that most of the differences between the 300D and the 10D would be available on the 300D but they're blocked in the firmware. I really feel this is cheap marketing. Especially since I was having Flash Exposure Compensation with my P&S Powershot S45 (which is a cheaper Canon than the DRebel). I know there's a hacked firmware available but I won't go to it as it would void the warranty. Anyone wanting to share my lost of faith in the world? ;-)


JP this was the only way they could differentiate the D-Rebel from the 10D, if you need all the features of the 10D why not get the 10D? As is the D-Rebel is an excellent camera and if you install the hack you get most features available onthe 10D. They both have the exact same sensor, so image quality is exactly the same. Remember Canon is still the ONLY one with a sub-US$1000 D-SLR...
09/10/2004 11:06:17 AM · #36
Originally posted by doctornick:

Remember Canon is still the ONLY one with a sub-US$1000 D-SLR...


...including a decent (IMO) lens. :o)
09/10/2004 11:23:36 AM · #37
I think we all took our purchases very seriously - we looked at features, looked at price points, looked at what we needed, what we wanted and we tried to get both in one camera. My point is that it really doesn't matter one wit whether you use a Canon or a Nikon, a Rebel or a 10D. The proof is in the pudding - ir, I mean the pictures!
09/10/2004 11:29:44 AM · #38
Originally posted by digistoune:

I think we all took our purchases very seriously - we looked at features, looked at price points, looked at what we needed, what we wanted and we tried to get both in one camera. My point is that it really doesn't matter one wit whether you use a Canon or a Nikon, a Rebel or a 10D. The proof is in the pudding - ir, I mean the pictures!


Well said! Not too many people will use all the features or outgrow the D-Rebel, those that do will move on...but it can't be beat as a first D-SLR. In an ideal world we'd all be shooting with a 1D MarkII or a 1Ds...
09/10/2004 11:58:55 AM · #39
anyway, Nothing really matters aside from the end result....the rest as more to do with compulsive buying or "posturing". I won't be one bit better as a photographer with a 1Ds....I'll just "look" much better....for some, that's as close to talent has they'll ever get.
09/10/2004 01:55:13 PM · #40
I got my Rebel back in april and the only thing I'm dissapointed in is that I can't afford lenses and a 550ex flash to mount on it...
09/10/2004 02:02:11 PM · #41
No rumours or anything on the rebel II, as was mentioned above?
09/10/2004 08:33:47 PM · #42
Originally posted by coolhar:

Will the 17-85 IS kit lens be looked upon as a budget level stopgap, or a serious lens?


That's a question I'd love answered.

I have a Tamrom 18-35 cheapoe, and a real cheap Canon 38-80 (something like that anway LOL).

I guess for me it does not matter so much if it is seen as a cheap stop-gap though, as realistically that's what those two lenses of mine are anyway for me.

I am thinking of flogging them both and replacing with the planned 17-85. I like the idea of having one less lens to lug around, and when I just want the camera without carrying ANYTHING else being able to have a 17-85 range in one small lens.

Message edited by author 2004-09-10 20:38:13.
09/10/2004 10:19:56 PM · #43
Originally posted by Natator:

...I am thinking of flogging them both and replacing with the planned 17-85. I like the idea of having one less lens to lug around, and when I just want the camera without carrying ANYTHING else being able to have a 17-85 range in one small lens.


The 17-85 IS is an EF-S lens and as such will not fit your 10D, it will only fit the Rebel and the 20D.

Message edited by author 2004-09-10 22:20:30.
09/10/2004 10:45:52 PM · #44
I don't think you can really blame canon for "questionable marketing tactics" Like it was said before- "prestige" is often more important than quality or results. Its the classic "fallacy of exclusivity."

Take the fender strat guitar line. There are fender squires and fender mexican and fender japanese and fender american custom and finally fender "american standard" the supposed top of the line. The pickup on the fender american standard costs about thirty (30) cents to make- so, aside from the materials and playability, how do you make all those other guitars sound different? you give the cheaper model a more expensive pick-up engineered to sound crappier. Same thing with the Rebel and the 10 D- except high tech and computerized trickery.

Face it- you lift up a toyota camry xle hood and surprise surprise its the lexus es 300 engine/

Maybe Volkswagen had to spend a little to make the touareg a little "cheaper" or slower than the Cayenne- But is there a difference?
Oh yeah- my volkswagon jetta has a lot of parts that have "Audi" written on them.

Here's a little tip.

ITS ALL A BUNCH OF MARKETING. USE WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD TO ITS FULLEST POTENTIAL.

Message edited by author 2004-09-10 22:47:30.
09/11/2004 01:24:09 AM · #45
Originally posted by doctornick:

The 17-85 IS is an EF-S lens and as such will not fit your 10D, it will only fit the Rebel and the 20D.


Ahhhhh .... that would be the 10D I just sold that you're talking about ;)

Yup, aware of which camera it fits and am forward planning :)

Thanks for the warning though, if I hadn't realised it could have saved me a lot of pain :)
09/11/2004 09:00:34 AM · #46
Ahhh so you too are getting the 20D? WooHoo!
09/12/2004 02:06:02 AM · #47
Originally posted by alionic:


to be honest here the DRebel (Kiss here) felt too cheap and 'plastic' for my liking


many of you boo and hiss that the 300D is plastic and not "tough enough". Just what do you plan on doing with your camera anyway? I know what I do - I take my pictures and put it back in a case. Even if I had the 10D or the most toughest camera in the world - I'd do the same. I wouldn't be playing catch with it if you know what I mean.

As for the FEC complaining, if it is such a big deal to you, spend the extra 500 bucks and get the 10D/20D. Or if you're smart, you'd realize you could get the dRebel and a 550EX flash for the same price (and youl'd even be able to change the FEC but then you'ld have one of the best external flashes money can buy).

If you think the 18-55 EF-s lens is too cheap, go ahead and spend the extra money for a better lens. Spend the 700 dollars for the L lens and get your 10 percent improvement for a 700% increase in price. I certainly cannot find myself to justify such a purchase.

And finally, my advice is stop thinking about the 300D's limitations and what "theyre' going to come out with." Start taking pictures. Some of the best pictures on this site have been taken with a 300D. If you have a D70, or a 10D, good for you. All of the above are great cameras.

Message edited by author 2004-09-12 02:10:50.
09/12/2004 02:39:09 AM · #48
Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by ghoti:

(I also believe that that was done on purpose in the 300D, I can't imagine what the camera is doing for three seconds - it's not like it needs to extend its lens barrel or anything).

Actually I believe it does perform some startup operations.


It must do. Even the 10D takes 2.2 seconds to startup (I think that is the official figure) and no way that would be intentional.

20D they are making a lot of noise about it being 0.2 seconds, in effect instant.
09/12/2004 02:42:11 AM · #49
I agree 100% with turbomech7, two post back. Well said!
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