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10/18/2013 02:43:14 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by nam:
Hard to see how a very high ratio of "I really don't like this" for whatever reason accompanied by scores of 4 and below could be anything but demoralizing. But maybe I'm wrong. |
I have a mix too, and my entry is actually scoring well above my overall average. But I find the negative comments helpful as long as people say "I don't like this because ______" ... I don't expect everyone to like every photo I take, but it's good to know whether something they like/don't like is a deliberate choice I made or something which could have been "improved" or done differently.
Unlike some folks, I find myself amused rather than offended when someone makes an incorrect assumption about my picture, like about my "studio lighting" when I was using a desk lamp with a compact fluorescent bulb, and I don't mind any suggestion made in good faith ... |
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10/18/2013 02:51:54 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Unlike some folks, I find myself amused rather than offended when someone makes an incorrect assumption about my picture, like about my "studio lighting" when I was using a desk lamp with a compact fluorescent bulb, and I don't mind any suggestion made in good faith ... |
Agreed.
Someone failed to see the "detail in the ordinary" in my doors/windows/locks/etc challenge. But it's there... Just have to keep an open mind
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10/18/2013 02:57:35 PM · #103 |
I'm on the fence. I had a newbie (a young person with only a handful of entries) whose just started photography and joined DPC. This young lady just PM'd me to say thank you for being her first commenter that didn't rip her a new asshole. The ugliness in her comments was enough she admitted to being in tears.
Now, I know DPC and the folks therein and can take it. But for someone who has just joined, we seem like a bunch of rude, mean asshats. Based on comment I have received and heard from friends, this challenge has seemingly given folks carte-blanch to say whatever and however they want and be immune because of the "social experiment".
Of course I will get flamed heavily for this post, for going against the grain. I understand and accept this. But I believe the amount of vitriol and just plain cruelty I've seen and read in my/others comments has crossed a line.
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10/18/2013 03:04:32 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Garry:
I'm on the fence. I had a newbie (a young person with only a handful of entries) whose just started photography and joined DPC. This young lady just PM'd me to say thank you for being her first commenter that didn't rip her a new asshole. The ugliness in her comments was enough she admitted to being in tears.
Now, I know DPC and the folks therein and can take it. But for someone who has just joined, we seem like a bunch of rude, mean asshats. Based on comment I have received and heard from friends, this challenge has seemingly given folks carte-blanch to say whatever and however they want and be immune because of the "social experiment".
Of course I will get flamed heavily for this post, for going against the grain. I understand and accept this. But I believe the amount of vitriol and just plain cruelty I've seen and read in my/others comments has crossed a line. |
I see two sides of this.
The side where I feel bad for her, being new and being involved in such an "experiment" may put her off from DPC forever. It can leave a bad taste.
But... I also see the side where, you can't grow if you can't accept feedback.
Personally, I have got comments about not liking my image... But nothing overly rude and out of the norm.
I didn't even think about those who are new to DPC. Most of these people here are used to the "aggressive" voting... And then to get rude comments on top of that, it's just off putting.
I hope I'm not one that offended her. I try to be constructive in my comments... But we all must remember, tone cannot be deciphered on the net... So don't assume the person is being an ass... Maybe they are just being straight to the point.
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10/18/2013 03:47:05 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by Garry:
I'm on the fence. I had a newbie (a young person with only a handful of entries) whose just started photography and joined DPC. This young lady just PM'd me to say thank you for being her first commenter that didn't rip her a new asshole. The ugliness in her comments was enough she admitted to being in tears. |
If the comments are truly personally abusive then she should used the "Report Post" button and let the SC deal with it. If the comments are merely (constructively) critical, then maybe refer her to the DPC Tutorial 9 Guidelines For Giving And Receiving Feedback, and remind her that when reading a less-than constuctive comment it probably says more about the personality of the commenter than the quality of her art.
Without reading the comments it's hard to know how upset she "should" be -- if you want to PM me I can look at the comments and see what's up, though maybe not until "later" ...
Message edited by author 2013-10-18 15:48:22. |
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10/18/2013 09:28:11 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Garry:
Based on comment I have received and heard from friends, this challenge has seemingly given folks carte-blanch to say whatever and however they want and be immune because of the "social experiment".
Of course I will get flamed heavily for this post, for going against the grain. I understand and accept this. But I believe the amount of vitriol and just plain cruelty I've seen and read in my/others comments has crossed a line. |
Your concern is valid but not because of a "carte-blanch" license but, rather, I think more a reflection of critical writing ineptitude with a bit of insensitivity thrown in. Negative criticism is always difficult to convey without giving offense. So I try to throw in some sugar with the vinegar. It's too bad when it hits someone who doesn't understand the playing field though.
Message edited by author 2013-10-19 08:29:53. |
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10/18/2013 10:36:43 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Garry:
Based on comment I have received and heard from friends, this challenge has seemingly given folks carte-blanch to say whatever and however they want and be immune because of the "social experiment".
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Unless you're really referring to a real personal attack, or something truly inappropriate, then I don't think I agree with you.
Essentially, I don't think people are being unusually mean-spirited, or rude - nope... I think they're being usually mean-spirited and rude. The difference is that they're not just keeping it to themselves this time, pressing the vote button, and moving forward.
I'll almost certainly point to this thread when people in the future ask why they're not getting comments on their lower votes.
..
A quote that I think has been proven out here...
"The truth? You want the truth? You can't handle the truth...." |
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10/18/2013 10:53:59 PM · #108 |
but it isn't the truth - it is our opinion. some of us feel very strongly about photos, our own and others. certainly the commenter has as much right to such strong feelings as does the receiver of the comments?
maybe it is a very positive sign that we feel so strongly about our photos, the ones we like, the ones we don't. our own and others. people seem to have a hard time with strong feeling unless, perhaps, it is the great hymn of praise to success. |
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10/18/2013 11:03:40 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by tnun:
but it isn't the truth - it is our opinion. some of us feel very strongly about photos, our own and others. certainly the commenter has as much right to such strong feelings as does the receiver of the comments?
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Cory's point is that folks complain about not receiving explanations for low votes and then instantly get angry when they get them. You can't have it both ways. While I agree that it's opinion (and should be taken as such(but not lightly and dismissively if it disagrees with you)), there's a large portion of folks who lament not being told why it scored low, and then have skin far too thin to bear what comes.
Having said that, there are various techniques for writing negative comments, some are better, others worse, but assuming the comment was in earnest goes the furthest.
Message edited by author 2013-10-18 23:04:53. |
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10/18/2013 11:08:28 PM · #110 |
I do not think that anything changed in the pattern of voting.
I got this time, like always, a little bouquet of 2s and 3s and I was happy to know why and I valued the criticism.
It seems that most people prefer not to have an explanation for a low vote and just assume that it came from a troll.
In this challenge, a vote of 5 with a detailed criticism seems to have been considered a rude thing.
I suggest that the people that were unhappy with this exercise will try to vote and comment and state the vote in a challenge of over 80 submissions and find the proper words that will be a critique in gloved hands.
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10/18/2013 11:27:36 PM · #111 |
I'm not a participant in this side challenge but I appreciate the efforts of those who are. So far I have 8 comments on my entry and they at at least as generous as I could hope them to be. Actually my entry makes me cringe a bit and I'm surprised that it is - so far - within the healthy meh range.
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10/18/2013 11:29:59 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by mariuca:
I do not think that anything changed in the pattern of voting.
I got this time, like always, a little bouquet of 2s and 3s and I was happy to know why and I valued the criticism.
It seems that most people prefer not to have an explanation for a low vote and just assume that it came from a troll.
In this challenge, a vote of 5 with a detailed criticism seems to have been considered a rude thing.
I suggest that the people that were unhappy with this exercise will try to vote and comment and state the vote in a challenge of over 80 submissions and find the proper words that will be a critique in gloved hands. |
Bingo on all counts, but especially the middle. |
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10/19/2013 02:04:42 AM · #113 |
Originally posted by tnun:
but it isn't the truth - it is our opinion. some of us feel very strongly about photos, our own and others. certainly the commenter has as much right to such strong feelings as does the receiver of the comments?
maybe it is a very positive sign that we feel so strongly about our photos, the ones we like, the ones we don't. our own and others. people seem to have a hard time with strong feeling unless, perhaps, it is the great hymn of praise to success. |
It is the truth about our opinions.
In any case, Derek got it right - my point was entirely that people bitch and moan when they don't get comments with the low votes, then bitch and moan even louder when they do.
Quite amusing really, but also rather sad.
I think mariuca nailed it when she noted that most people prefer not to have an explanation for the low vote, as they can then simply operate under the false belief that their image is great, and it's just 'the trolls' who are giving out low votes for fun. Obviously much less painful than realizing your work isn't up to par, but much less useful too. |
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10/19/2013 02:18:01 AM · #114 |
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first,
Message edited by author 2013-10-19 02:18:20. |
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10/19/2013 02:22:14 AM · #115 |
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
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10/19/2013 02:30:14 AM · #116 |
Just thinking; Feedback on every image voted on but feedback LIMITED to 2 words, should be fun. "Good Work" or Improve Focus" No more than two words would challenge us all to come up with som original ideas. TWO ONLY, on EVERY vote on. Can apply to any challenge. Then after that, FOUR word feedback: 2 positive, 2 recommendations for improvement. Surely feedback in itself can, and should be, FUN! Example of 4 words;
+nice lighting, -consider composition. |
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10/19/2013 02:30:32 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
Negative or positive, I've enjoyed the comments, initially I imagined getting a 5 with maybe 3 comments. I'm enjoying more and more throwing a not sure what's going to happen picture in there. |
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10/19/2013 02:35:02 AM · #118 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
Just thinking; Feedback on every image voted on but feedback LIMITED to 2 words, should be fun. "Good Work" or Improve Focus" No more than two words would challenge us all to come up with som original ideas. TWO ONLY, on EVERY vote on. Can apply to any challenge. Then after that, FOUR word feedback: 2 positive, 2 recommendations for improvement. Surely feedback in itself can, and should be, FUN! Example of 4 words;
+nice lighting, -consider composition. |
Genius. I think this is a very good idea - slightly more challenging to be radically offensive when limited to two words... Though, I'm sure I can manage...
(tongue in cheek- it's never really my intent to be offensive, but I do manage some measure of enjoyment from those who are offended by simple honesty, and even "Improve Focus" would almost certainly offend some thin-skinned 'tog)
..
Seriously though - I think this is a DARN good idea, because the one major annoyance of this type of exercise is the sheer time it takes to put forth a well thought out and well written comment on 80+ images.
Message edited by author 2013-10-19 02:36:05. |
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10/19/2013 02:40:51 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
Negative or positive, I've enjoyed the comments, initially I imagined getting a 5 with maybe 3 comments. I'm enjoying more and more throwing a not sure what's going to happen picture in there. |
I'm glad to hear things have overall been positive for you with this foray. Personally, I think it's good to welcome all feedback. If you want to filter it based on your own criteria later, fine, so be it, but at least you have a larger volume with approaches such as this.
RE:docpjv: I strongly disagree. This is tantamount to comments of "nice" being sufficient and in fact encourages individuals towards this end. |
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10/19/2013 02:53:45 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
RE:docpjv: I strongly disagree. This is tantamount to comments of "nice" being sufficient and in fact encourages individuals towards this end. |
I would suggest specifically requesting that commenters avoid the 'nice image' comments.
Substance isn't impossible with only two words - they just have to be chosen carefully. :D
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10/19/2013 08:46:02 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
Negative or positive, I've enjoyed the comments, initially I imagined getting a 5 with maybe 3 comments. I'm enjoying more and more throwing a not sure what's going to happen picture in there. |
Would you have preferred knowing ahead of time that this commenting "side-challenge" were going to take place?
I often enter images that I know probably won't go over with the DPC voters but that I hope even one person will find a connection with. I can imagine the response to something like that in this challenge and think maybe it would be better to be forewarned. |
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10/19/2013 08:56:43 AM · #122 |
| Plan to vote and comment 100% today on CN...now off to track down those books that I haven't read, and ensure that I understand the basic themes and premise of each, before leaving comments betraying that I have no idea what the book's about. |
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10/19/2013 09:25:29 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
Negative or positive, I've enjoyed the comments, initially I imagined getting a 5 with maybe 3 comments. I'm enjoying more and more throwing a not sure what's going to happen picture in there. |
Would you have preferred knowing ahead of time that this commenting "side-challenge" were going to take place?
I often enter images that I know probably won't go over with the DPC voters but that I hope even one person will find a connection with. I can imagine the response to something like that in this challenge and think maybe it would be better to be forewarned. |
Knowing would't have changed anything for me, I'm thinking I have to experiment more and negative comments and not doing well come with the territory. |
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10/19/2013 09:30:45 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Originally posted by jagar:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by jagar:
I put something in a challenge that I pretty much knew would have little appeal or success, I've had twelve comments so far, that's got to be a first, |
Is this a first as in one that you appreciate or one which you do not? You have remained quite neutral on the statement. |
Negative or positive, I've enjoyed the comments, initially I imagined getting a 5 with maybe 3 comments. I'm enjoying more and more throwing a not sure what's going to happen picture in there. |
Would you have preferred knowing ahead of time that this commenting "side-challenge" were going to take place?
I often enter images that I know probably won't go over with the DPC voters but that I hope even one person will find a connection with. I can imagine the response to something like that in this challenge and think maybe it would be better to be forewarned. |
Knowing would't have changed anything for me, I'm thinking I have to experiment more and negative comments and not doing well come with the territory. |
I'm sure I, for one, will enjoy your experiments:) Thanks. |
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10/19/2013 10:36:33 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by Garry:
I'm on the fence. I had a newbie (a young person with only a handful of entries) whose just started photography and joined DPC. This young lady just PM'd me to say thank you for being her first commenter that didn't rip her a new asshole. The ugliness in her comments was enough she admitted to being in tears.
Now, I know DPC and the folks therein and can take it. But for someone who has just joined, we seem like a bunch of rude, mean asshats. Based on comment I have received and heard from friends, this challenge has seemingly given folks carte-blanch to say whatever and however they want and be immune because of the "social experiment".
Of course I will get flamed heavily for this post, for going against the grain. I understand and accept this. But I believe the amount of vitriol and just plain cruelty I've seen and read in my/others comments has crossed a line. |
There is no excuse for crossing this line. It is possible to offer critical comments without being ugly, rude, mean or cruel. |
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