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08/25/2013 01:12:01 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
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It's also a mistake to think everyone is on one side or the other. The false dichotomy. |
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08/25/2013 01:21:21 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by bohemka:
It's also a mistake to think everyone is on one side or the other. The false dichotomy. |
I don't think "everyone" is - I am encouraged to see some dialogue in various corners of the internet between people from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Still, look at the comments section of any political issue and you see the literal and visceral polarization and hate from both sides of the dominant parties. What about you, Scott - what are your thoughts on Syria, politics, right, left, etc.? |
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08/25/2013 01:44:11 AM · #28 |
Personally I am so sick and tired of my country being the police bully of the world.
It's not our place - not our business - and I'm sick of seeing our young soldiers go to these other countries and get blown to bits. Enough already! |
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08/25/2013 01:50:47 AM · #29 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by bohemka:
It's also a mistake to think everyone is on one side or the other. The false dichotomy. |
I don't think "everyone" is - I am encouraged to see some dialogue in various corners of the internet between people from opposite ends of the political spectrum. Still, look at the comments section of any political issue and you see the literal and visceral polarization and hate from both sides of the dominant parties. What about you, Scott - what are your thoughts on Syria, politics, right, left, etc.? |
I agree with your disgust right now, and I feel it as well. I've spent the last decade overseas and have recently moved back and am disgusted with the discourse in this country. Hyperbole and bombastic bullshit all day long. You are either with me or you are against me. The media makes a ton of money and many fall right in line, but we're no closer to a better community because of this behavior.
Personally, my thoughts on Syria are right in line with where they were with Iraq. There are international bodies involved. We should honor treaties and support the international community as we are required to, but I can't see any justification for forcing action.
I voted for Nader four times, so that should tell you where I fall right or left. |
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08/25/2013 02:36:20 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
Syria has recently released chemical warfare on its people. |
Really? Are you sure? Should we rely on media reports or wait for the results of the UN investigation? And did the Syrian gov't use it first or did the U.S. backed rebels?
I'm not saying I agree with them, but there are many people who believe the powers that control the U.S. are intent on going to war with Syria, fully believing it will pull in Iran and apparently not believing or not caring that Russia and possibly China will be pulled in as well. Think about this: Obama had stated several times that use of chemical weapons would be a "crossed line" and by most reports, Assad has been winning - WHY in the world would he blatantly do the very thing that would pull in the world's most powerful military against him? Doesn't add up. Like I said, I don't necessarily believe conspiracy theories, but there is a lot of information people are not getting and a lot of disinformation we are getting.
IMO, it doesn't matter - like Cory says, fuck 'em. It is not our mess, not our problem. Not that it matters what Cory and I, or any US citizen- or Congressman or Senator, for that matter think - the decision to go to war has become a unilateral one - how did we, the people let this happen? Feel free to go back and say how Bush did it or at least lied, etc. - I won't disagree. The powers that be have set us up in a polarized two-party system so they can spew out lies and disinformation and just keep us fighting amongst each other while the leaders all march to the same tune and serve the same masters. It is OUR responsibility as individuals not to just accept what we are spoon fed, but to seek out ALL information and evaluate them for ourselves. CRITICAL THINKING is required of each of us and that means to consider ALL sources of information and don't dismiss what could be FACTS just because you generally don't agree with the messenger and certainly don't sit there sucking solely on your preferred partisan flavor of "news" - EVERY SOURCE has an AGENDA / BIAS - thoughtfully and objectively consider everything that you agree with and everything you adamantly disagree with and make up your own mind based on logic, reason and facts.
...sorry. off my soapbox now. |
Please stay on your soapbox......You put into words exactly what I was thinking. |
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08/25/2013 07:17:24 AM · #31 |
| The use of chemical weapons is an excuse which gives the US/UK a free hand in deciding if/when they should attack. The actual *reason* revolves around economic and political interests in the region. |
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08/26/2013 03:35:41 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by JH:
The use of chemical weapons is an excuse which gives the US/UK a free hand in deciding if/when they should attack. The actual *reason* revolves around economic and political interests in the region. |
A "convenient" excuse? |
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08/26/2013 05:17:19 PM · #33 |
If chemical weapons where used and it looks like they were, then we need to take out Assad to protect our allies like Israel
Message edited by author 2013-08-26 17:18:30.
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08/26/2013 05:20:02 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
If chemical weapons where used (this is against the geneva convention) and it looks like they were, then we need to take out Assad to protect our allies like Israel |
...considering how good the intelligence was regarding Hussein, I think I will wait for more concrete evidence as to who did what to whom.
Ray |
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08/26/2013 05:20:14 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by cowboy221977:
If chemical weapons where used (this is against the geneva convention) and it looks like they were, then we need to take out Assad to protect our allies like Israel |
Did you watch this video, Adam? The issue really is WHO used chemical weapons and who is supplying them. I spent ten years in the military and I know how hard it is to shake off your programming, but try hard, my friend. |
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08/26/2013 08:53:17 PM · #36 |
As I heard it today, making poison gas isn't that hard (you can do it in your kitchen), but doing it safely, and developing containment and (more especially) effective delivery systems require significant technological expertise and infrastructure, which it is certain the Assad regime posesses, and which it seems unlikely the "rebels" have been able to (secretly) develop in the past two years under the prevailing conditions. The Assad regime has not reported the loss of control of any of their known stocks.
So, unless there's evidence that the anti-Assad forces have obtained/imported such weapons (from North Korea or perhaps Iran?) I'm leaning toward the current regime being responsible.
FWIW Colin Powell, who met with Assad in his role as Secretary of State, recently described Assad as "a pathological liar" in a radio interview. |
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08/27/2013 01:26:22 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
As I heard it today, making poison gas isn't that hard (you can do it in your kitchen), but doing it safely, and developing containment and (more especially) effective delivery systems require significant technological expertise and infrastructure, which it is certain the Assad regime posesses, and which it seems unlikely the "rebels" have been able to (secretly) develop in the past two years under the prevailing conditions. The Assad regime has not reported the loss of control of any of their known stocks.
So, unless there's evidence that the anti-Assad forces have obtained/imported such weapons (from North Korea or perhaps Iran?) I'm leaning toward the current regime being responsible.
FWIW Colin Powell, who met with Assad in his role as Secretary of State, recently described Assad as "a pathological liar" in a radio interview. |
You are wrong General! The Syrian Rebels have sarin gas and have used it before!
In May of this year the UN accused them of its use and have evidence to prove it.....but mainstream US media would not cover that.
UN accusses Syrian Rebels of Chemical Warfare |
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08/27/2013 09:40:40 AM · #38 |
A very interesting article.
The comments attributed to the UN observer however seem to run counter to those found Here, particularly this comment:
"The U.N. investigators are mandated to determine whether chemical attacks occurred, but not who initiated them."
I will wait for answers relative to delivery systems before trying to determine who did what to whom.
Ray
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08/27/2013 12:01:39 PM · #39 |
Map of Middle East alliances/enmities courtesy of Slate Magazine based on rhe following letter printed in the Financial Times.
Originally posted by K-N Al-Sabah:
Sir, Iran is backing Assad. Gulf states are against Assad!
Assad is against Muslim Brotherhood. Muslim Brotherhood and Obama are against General Sisi.
But Gulf states are pro Sisi! Which means they are against Muslim Brotherhood!
Iran is pro Hamas, but Hamas is backing Muslim Brotherhood!
Obama is backing Muslim Brotherhood, yet Hamas is against the US!
Gulf states are pro US. But Turkey is with Gulf states against Assad; yet Turkey is pro Muslim Brotherhood against General Sisi. And General Sisi is being backed by the Gulf states!
Welcome to the Middle East and have a nice day. |
Message edited by author 2013-08-27 12:01:57. |
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08/27/2013 06:47:40 PM · #40 |
//www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/25/us-syria-crisis-usa-poll-idUSBRE97O00E20130825
"About 60 percent of Americans surveyed said the United States should not intervene in Syria's civil war, while just 9 percent thought President Barack Obama should act."
On one hand, that is good news. On the other hand, since when does it matter what the majority of Americans want? >:/
Here's 8 reasons NOT to go to war with Syria. |
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08/27/2013 08:09:09 PM · #41 |
I guess the obvious answer of *why* to go to war in Syria is basically profit.
I found this an interesting read yesterday.
Make of it what you will, i guess.
I thought this part was kind of salient...
'By the start of the 21st century, the Transnational Capitalist Class turned to several mechanisms to sustain global accumulation (profit-making) in the face of stagnation and overaccumulation.
One of the mechanisms is what I term militarized accumulation. This involves making wars and undertaking interventions that unleash cycles of destruction and reconstruction, and generate enormous profits for an ever-expanding "military-prison-industrial-security-energy-financial complex." We are now living in a global war economy that goes well beyond such "hot wars" as in Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria.'
Of course, it could very well be that we go to war with Syria because the U.S and the U.K and the 'willing' are absolutely horrified by the use of chemical weapons, something they would never dream of using themselves (um...history....apart from the obvious then there are still all those receipts of course) , and it's all for the poor children. Won't somebody think of the children!
Message edited by author 2013-08-27 20:11:48. |
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08/27/2013 08:24:48 PM · #42 |
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08/27/2013 08:26:12 PM · #43 |
| "If they used chemical weapons, we should nuke 'em" |
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08/28/2013 08:48:28 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
FWIW Colin Powell, who met with Assad in his role as Secretary of State, recently described Assad as "a pathological liar" in a radio interview. |
Colin Powell who presented 'evidence' of Saddam Hussein's WMDs to the UN. FWIW indeed. |
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08/28/2013 09:08:29 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
FWIW Colin Powell, who met with Assad in his role as Secretary of State, recently described Assad as "a pathological liar" in a radio interview. |
Colin Powell who presented 'evidence' of Saddam Hussein's WMDs to the UN. FWIW indeed. |
Even fourth-graders know it takes one to know one ... :-) |
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08/29/2013 06:58:18 PM · #46 |
Government loses Syria vote in Commons
It was a close one, they lost by only 13 votes.
Anyway, it looks like Obama won't have the UK backing him up, which means no NATO support. I highly doubt he'll get a UN resolution passed - so if he acts now, it'll be unilateral. |
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08/29/2013 10:52:44 PM · #47 |
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08/30/2013 03:07:42 AM · #48 |
In the future, that map will turn out to be very useful to someone...
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08/30/2013 11:40:22 AM · #49 |
I would say that the data indicates change is afoot. |
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08/30/2013 01:18:14 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I would say that the data indicates change is afoot. |
I donno about that... Seems to me somebody's pretty much unhappy with every leader pretty much all the time. What we're seeing here is just better information collating.
Also, for what it's worth, note that the preponderance of the protesting is happening where change is arguably least needed, though that's not saying much. In other words, way fewer protests in Africa and South America than you'd hope for, presumably because protesting's REALLY dangerous in those places? ETA: I didn't follow all the way to the end LOL. It IS looking a lot more lively lately isn't it?
Also, as an aside, I was noticing how little protesting goes on in Scandinavia...
Message edited by author 2013-08-30 13:32:41. |
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