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DPChallenge Forums >> Hardware and Software >> Upgrade suggestion from 1000D
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07/22/2013 10:31:28 PM · #1
from the perspective of a former crop system owner: the 18 (or rather 28.8mm)is wide enough to shoot inside a room, but not the whole room.

The 10-22 will let you shoot a whole group in a room only a couple feet from you.

Part of the allure of the 60d is its af system (which is pretty excellent imo) if you can take advantage of it, i say do it.

nikon does apparently have better compatibility with older lenses.

Message edited by author 2013-07-22 22:32:24.
07/21/2013 10:31:31 PM · #2
Thanks Mike, may be 15 years back i had Zenith russian camera that had aperture ring ...... i think i would search more on old manual lenses and try to follow this path than buy modern lenses for time being.
07/21/2013 08:02:23 PM · #3
if you want wider than 18mm you need to get wider than 18mm. I'm pretty sure metering will still work because the lens doesn't meter, the sensor does. You will lose AF and you will lose aperture control, so if you get a manual lens get one that allows you set the aperture manually. you may want to rent a ultra wide angle if you can and see what focal lengths is best for you want, it will also allow you to see the sort of distortion going wider than 18 will give you.
07/21/2013 07:32:13 PM · #4
Thanks Mike ... weven i was thinking going for old manual lens. I undertand they would not AF but would metring work? Also possibility of old third party manual lenses says Vivitar ... i know Canon has change mount from FD to ES...but i found couple really reasonable vivitar lenses on ebay.

However if i am not happy with 18-55 than buying 70$ old 28mm Vivitar wont make sense right ? cause the effect i wam looking has to wider than 18... but sometinmes prices are tempting. I am seriously thinking of hunting manual lenses canon or third party. I some how feel Nikon would be more compaitable with olde Nikon or third party lenses than say Canon.
07/21/2013 10:16:29 AM · #5
Originally posted by Leo:

The most popular third party wide zooms are:
Tamrom 10-24 or
Sigma 10-20.
Both are about or under $500 US.


I here good things about the sigma, i used to own the the tamron, it was very soft wide open especially at 10mm, its was great for landscapes stopped down, i tended to use it more for the extreme perspective and portraits and it wasn't up to par the way i used it so i upgraded to the canon 10-22.

if you intend to buy used its very hard to find the tamron, the sigmas are in much more supply.

another option is to find an older manual focus lens or prime especially if you intend to use it for landscape and AF isn't really required.

Message edited by author 2013-07-21 10:19:36.
07/21/2013 03:43:52 AM · #6
The most popular third party wide zooms are:
Tamrom 10-24 or
Sigma 10-20.
Both are about or under $500 US.
07/20/2013 07:59:21 PM · #7

That was a great explaination.it was quite helpful... any suggestion for third party wide angle lens than 18mm?
07/20/2013 07:40:15 AM · #8
duplicate post

Message edited by author 2013-07-20 07:40:43.
07/20/2013 07:33:53 AM · #9
Originally posted by General:

So 18mm i clicke acts like 28mm on 1000d or 60D 9 when i buy)....despite being a EFS it not really 18mm...Is there any wide angle lens that is made for crop sensor that would be of same focal lenght they mention?

reason is that i am getting a used tamron 17-50mm, no point to buy this if this too would become 1.6 times cause i already would have 18mm-55.. ya advantage is it is 2.8 constant


no. its still 18mm, the focal length never changes, an 18mm on a crop is still 18mm, it doesn't become 28mm. EF-S lens are made to work with crop bodies, they project an image circle that only covers the smaller sensor, EF lens will mount both crop and FF sensors, the difference being the larger image circle projected on the sensor spills off, like this:

' . substr('//www.garydatesphotos.com/superphotodude/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/crop-circle.jpg', strrpos('//www.garydatesphotos.com/superphotodude/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/crop-circle.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

looking at that picture you can see how much real estate is unused by a crop body, so an EF-S is cheaper to produce since it don't need to make a large image circle. Its also why lens like the Tamron 28-75/2.8 which is fantastic on a crop, doesn't perform so well on a full frame, because the edges aren't as crisp and there are all sorts of optical aberrations at the edges that get clipped of on a crop sensor.

in any case you need not be concerned with how your lenses perform on a full frame, only how they perform on a crop. if 18mm isnt wide enough for you from your past experience, buy a wider one.

Message edited by author 2013-07-21 10:18:04.
07/20/2013 03:55:59 AM · #10
Originally posted by General:

I was reading article EFS LENS so if f buy Tamron 17-50mm technically my pictures field of view would be same right ? or in layman's term wide angle experience would be same


Yes.
07/20/2013 03:53:45 AM · #11
I was reading article EFS LENS so if f buy Tamron 17-50mm technically my pictures field of view would be same right ? or in layman's term wide angle experience would be same
07/19/2013 09:56:50 PM · #12
Originally posted by General:

So 18mm i clicke acts like 28mm on 1000d or 60D 9 when i buy)....despite being a EFS it not really 18mm...Is there any wide angle lens that is made for crop sensor that would be of same focal lenght they mention?

reason is that i am getting a used tamron 17-50mm, no point to buy this if this too would become 1.6 times cause i already would have 18mm-55.. ya advantage is it is 2.8 constant


The 15-85mm IS is about the best I've found, either that or the 10-22mm EFS... The 10-22 has no IS, the 15-85mm has 4 stops worth of IS.
07/19/2013 09:12:57 PM · #13
So 18mm i clicke acts like 28mm on 1000d or 60D 9 when i buy)....despite being a EFS it not really 18mm...Is there any wide angle lens that is made for crop sensor that would be of same focal lenght they mention?

reason is that i am getting a used tamron 17-50mm, no point to buy this if this too would become 1.6 times cause i already would have 18mm-55.. ya advantage is it is 2.8 constant
07/19/2013 09:08:43 PM · #14
And to help clarify, its field of view equivilent, the lens is still 18-55mm, if you put the same focal length on a full frame the edges wouldnt be cut off, you wouldnt actually be zoomed out.

If that makes any sense.

Edit, to add the signs 10-20mm is highly regarded and at $300 used its very affordable. It will get you much wider without going into fisheye effect. The 10-20 will get you some nice distortion to play with too though.

Message edited by author 2013-07-19 21:11:23.
07/19/2013 07:53:40 PM · #15
Originally posted by General:

Hi everyone,

I would be picking up 60D at around 650 USD for body only or 700 USD with 18-55 IS lens. I already own 18-55 non IS. Reason for going for 18-55 with 60 D is IS. i recently was searching for wide angle lens and what i understood that lens efs 18-55 is actually equivalent of 28-88mm due to crop sensor 1.6X

My question is EFS 18-55 is really is 18-155 or is it (18*1.6/55*1.6) equivalent of 28-88mm.
I always thought EFS were made for smaller sensor and 18-55 would be 18-55 only. I plan to buy wide angle lens. So when i shoot with my 18-55 (without zooming) , do i end up shooting 18mm? or is it 28mm? Hence pictures i have so fare clicked is angle odf 18mm or 28mm?I am intersted in lens which is more wider than 18-55,
If this is the case than what lens hould i buy... not interested in fish eye as of now.


You want wider than 18mm, not a fisheye?

12-24mm Sigma is rectilinear (the old one is anyway, the new one is almost rectilinear, but has better optics otherwise)...

As for the understanding of how crop sensors affect the apparent focal length, you are exactly right, 18mm is equivalent of about 28mm on a FF camera.

The difference can be quite astonishing, especially at the more extreme focal lengths (less than 15mm or greater than 300mm).

Same location, same lens, different body.

Crop Body -' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1220/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_888142.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1220/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_888142.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Full Frame-' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1744/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1068276.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1744/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_1068276.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2013-07-19 19:54:43.
07/19/2013 06:47:57 PM · #16
Hi everyone,

I would be picking up 60D at around 650 USD for body only or 700 USD with 18-55 IS lens. I already own 18-55 non IS. Reason for going for 18-55 with 60 D is IS. i recently was searching for wide angle lens and what i understood that lens efs 18-55 is actually equivalent of 28-88mm due to crop sensor 1.6X

My question is EFS 18-55 is really is 18-155 or is it (18*1.6/55*1.6) equivalent of 28-88mm.
I always thought EFS were made for smaller sensor and 18-55 would be 18-55 only. I plan to buy wide angle lens. So when i shoot with my 18-55 (without zooming) , do i end up shooting 18mm? or is it 28mm? Hence pictures i have so fare clicked is angle odf 18mm or 28mm?I am intersted in lens which is more wider than 18-55,
If this is the case than what lens hould i buy... not interested in fish eye as of now.
07/11/2013 09:43:04 AM · #17
I am from India and idea of refurbished camera doesn't really exist and i am not really sure i can get my hands on a new 40D or used 40D. I am kt saying people don't sell old Camera but Photography market is small market as result you have don't much used camera or lenses for sale
07/11/2013 04:31:42 AM · #18
Originally posted by Mike:

honestly? a 60D.

its newer and there will most likely be less clicks on the shutter. i'm someone put 17,000 clicks on my 60D in a year and a half, so i would want something relatively new to give me confidence it will last, considering the XXD line shutter is only rated to 100,000 actuations.

plus...
10% lighter
uses SD cards
tilt screen
higher res
1080p video
higher res LCD
wireless speedlight control

is that worth $300 over over my next choice on that list, a 40D? yes, plus i can make back that $300 if i choose to upgrade in the near future. the 60D will sell far easier than the other bodies will.

remember Cory, im not advocating getting the newest body, im someone who jumped on a refurbed 5dii when the 5diii and 6D came out, realizing the 5dii more than still holds its own, heck i was contemplating a 5dc.

the 60D is a great camera and will for the price, more than serve the OP, the 70D is new and flashy, but it may not be practical to pay for features you don't need. I think the 60D is the perfect compromise, its a practical and a worth while upgrade.


While I do totally understand your position, for me the 10% lighter means nothing, SD cards are actually a problem, tilt screen seems like gadgetry that will break (I don't shoot with my screen, I use the viewfinder), I don't do video, chimping is done with my histogram, not the image so a higher res LCD means nothing to me (I'm used to the 5D at this point), and all of my speedlights are cheap-o versions made by Yongnuo, so wireless functionality wouldn't help me at all.

On the flip side the 60D is lighter because it's made out of plastic rather than metal, it costs 200% more than a different used XXD body, and won't create an image that is significantly different from any other xxD body. Considering that, for the same total price, I'd prefer a 40D and a new nicer lens. And of course, speaking of resale, you'll make money on the lens purchase if you work it right, there's no way you'll do anything but lose money on that 60D, even if you buy it used.

But, of course, I'm sure the OP has his own motivations, and is likely to do something completely different than either of us would do. :D
07/10/2013 10:19:08 PM · #19
honestly? a 60D.

its newer and there will most likely be less clicks on the shutter. i'm someone put 17,000 clicks on my 60D in a year and a half, so i would want something relatively new to give me confidence it will last, considering the XXD line shutter is only rated to 100,000 actuations.

plus...
10% lighter
uses SD cards
tilt screen
higher res
1080p video
higher res LCD
wireless speedlight control

is that worth $300 over over my next choice on that list, a 40D? yes, plus i can make back that $300 if i choose to upgrade in the near future. the 60D will sell far easier than the other bodies will.

remember Cory, im not advocating getting the newest body, im someone who jumped on a refurbed 5dii when the 5diii and 6D came out, realizing the 5dii more than still holds its own, heck i was contemplating a 5dc.

the 60D is a great camera and will for the price, more than serve the OP, the 70D is new and flashy, but it may not be practical to pay for features you don't need. I think the 60D is the perfect compromise, its a practical and a worth while upgrade.

07/10/2013 08:44:17 PM · #20
Originally posted by Mike:



um, when i upgraded from the 1000D i had a kit lens a 55-250 and nifty fifty. i sold all except for the nifty fifty and bought a 60D with a 18-135 kit. I prefer better glass over bodies as do you but the 1000D is really and entry level DSLR and body upgrade will do far more good than any glass will. its just a better experience.


Ok, then I admit you're in a better position to advise than I suspected. :D

Now, if you were able to choose, which body would you take?

20D - cost = 100
30D - cost = 150
40D - cost = 260
60D - cost = 600

Before you decide - take a serious look at the measurements graphs over at DxOMark. Pretty clear that these cameras do not perform significantly differently in terms of noise, dynamic range, or color accuracy. They are all also very much the same in terms of controls.

The only really significant differences are in the AF system, the screen, and the actual number of megapixels. And even there I don't think there is much difference in practice. I use center AF 95% of the time, and that point hasn't really changed much over the years. (although that old retina tracking system Canon introduced at the end of the film era would be admittedly very cool.)

I agree that the 1000D is just weak in terms of body feel, and controls available. But there's no reason just about any xxD wouldn't work - especially when you consider that you really can get a 'free' lens by not going with the latest generation body. Probably a used $500 70-200 F/4 or a $300 85mm f/1.8 ....

In fact, I'd probably buy that 40D fast (it's a buy it now at $260)



07/10/2013 08:03:24 PM · #21
Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by Mike:

i owned a 1000D and i upgraded to a 60D two years ago.

i never regretted it for a second, not one time did i wish i had bought a better lens instead. The increase in ISO was worth it by itself. that fact that you aren't limited to 1600 is huge not to mention 1600 on a 60D is relatively usable, unlike the 1000D.


Admittedly, you are in a vastly different position in terms of lenses though.

Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM
Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM
Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

..

He has two EF-s lenses and the nifty 50 - neither is even close to stellar quality - almost all of your lenses are extraordinarily good ones.


um, when i upgraded from the 1000D i had a kit lens a 55-250 and nifty fifty. i sold all except for the nifty fifty and bought a 60D with a 18-135 kit. I prefer better glass over bodies as do you but the 1000D is really and entry level DSLR and body upgrade will do far more good than any glass will. its just a better experience.
07/10/2013 05:47:31 PM · #22
Originally posted by Mike:

i owned a 1000D and i upgraded to a 60D two years ago.

i never regretted it for a second, not one time did i wish i had bought a better lens instead. The increase in ISO was worth it by itself. that fact that you aren't limited to 1600 is huge not to mention 1600 on a 60D is relatively usable, unlike the 1000D.


Admittedly, you are in a vastly different position in terms of lenses though.

Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM
Canon EF 17-40mm f/4L USM
Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM
Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

..

He has two EF-s lenses and the nifty 50 - neither is even close to stellar quality - almost all of your lenses are extraordinarily good ones.
07/10/2013 05:18:06 PM · #23
I really like my 60D - would upgrade to the 70D when it comes out if I could afford it, but for reasons you've said aren't a factor for you. I run the Tamron 18-270mm lens, and find that even the 270mm just doesn't give me the reach I want for birding in the wild - even with the birds at the height of a phone pole - let alone across a field, flying in the sky, etc.
I haven't used a prosumer ultra-zoom for several years, but they used to be unable to deliver the sharpness you want for images. A 600mm equivalent would be nice...
07/10/2013 05:03:11 PM · #24
Only edge i find in 70D would be A 19-point (all cross-type) focus points but financially 60 D makes huge sense
07/10/2013 03:08:19 PM · #25
unless you really are going to make use of the 70Ds features, the 60D is a really great camera.
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